Harsh Thakor Posted October 5, 2012 Posted October 5, 2012 I have never seen two cricketers so close together as Andy Roberts and Michael Holding.Only a hairline could seperate them and even a photo-finish could not decide which paceman was better.The pair constituted the most lethal pace attack with Lille and Thomson in the 1970's.Whilst Holding posessed the most perfect action by any paceman ever like a Rolls Royce Car and the most consistent speed of his era,Roberts had greater craft and innovation and was considered more lethal.Below I am giving my 2 bios on these 2 superstars and then the comparison. 1.Andy Roberts Made his debut at the age of 19 for Leeward islands,capturing 4-50 from 29 overs.He plated his first tset agaisnt England on a batting wicket at Barbados capturing 1-75 and 2-49,ona goodbating wicket.Andy had become tehe first Antiuan to represent the West Indies. In England in 1974 he proved his mettle capturing 119 wickets in 21 matches. at amost economical average of 13.62 . The folowing winter he displayed his great ability at the International level capturing 32 wickets in 5 test matches in India.Considering he spearheaded an attack virtually single-handedly it was a brilliant peformance.On dead,flat wickets with the exception of Madras he revealed his ability to cut and swing the ball ,extract bounceand initiate changes in pace.His performance on a bouncy wicket at Madras was an all -time graet one where he captured 12-121 including 7-64 in the firts innings.His pace was ferocious .His off-cutters and bouncers were a revelation.He would make a 60 over old ballswing or cut back.He went on to capture 12 morewickets in 2 tests in Pakistan. In the 1975 World cup he revealed his prowess with the bat sharing a 64 run last wicket partnership with Deryk Murray to steal a win for WEst Indies by 1 wicket against Pakistan.After the winning run was hit it was an unforgettable moment and he and Deryk Murray were lifted by supporters.It set the launching pad for WESt Indies winning the World Cup that year. The folllowing winter in Australia he bolwed splendidly inspite of injury capturing 22 wickets at 26 runs apiece.His team was humiliated 5-1 but Andly with almsot no support played the role of alone warrior.At Perth where WEst Indies triumhed he took 7-54 tearing the heart out of strong Australian batting line up.He superbly exploited the fast track deploying ahuge range of deliveries. He successfuly played 2 test matches in ahome series aginst India but missed the final 2 test matches.In England in 1976 with Michael Holding he spearheaded one of pace bolwings greatest duos,in the same league as Lillee and Thomson.Intelligently using the seam and deploying changes in pace he captured 28 wickets-on par with Michael Holding.At Leeds he ripped apart the English batting like atiger tearing flesh capturing 9 wickets. In 1977 he was unsuccessful in a hard -fought series against Pakistan when he averaged 40 runs per wicket. In the Packer World series Cricket Andy Roberts was second only to Dennis Lille capturing 50 wickets at 24.61.(better average than Lillee whose figures were 26.5).He displayed such versatality that Dennis Lillee called him the most complete bolwer he had seen.His performance in a one day International gane was unforgettable when he ripped apart a strong opposition batting line up.His variation of pace,bouncers at different speeds a nd huge range of deliveries made him the closest bolwer to Dennis Lillee in the tournament,even if Holding was quicker. In 1979 he returned to International Cricket in the 1979 World cup when he captured 11 valuable wickets,helping his team to retain the title.Later in 1979-80 in Australia he was statistically overshadowed by Colin Croft and Michael Holding but made several critical breakthroughs.In the final test at Adelaide he removed both the Chappell brothers of successive deliveries-to me what was the turning point in the West Indies victory ,and helped set up a win for West Indies which enabled them to win a series in Australia for the first time.Now West Indies were the unofficial test champions and Andy had laid the foundation for the building of the greatset pace quartet ever in the history of the game,being the pioneer of the quartet.The deliveries that dismissed the Chappell brothers were unplayable rising balls from a good length spot so charasterictic of Andy.The 1975-76 debacle was avenged in appropriate style and West Indies had regained the Frank Worell trophy.He also bowled a brilliant 5 wicket capturing spell in a one day International aginst England. In England in 1980 he won the first test at Trent Bridge not only with the ball butwith the bat.He captured 8 wickets,troubling the Englishman with his bounce and seam.In the end he came in with his team precariously placed at 175-7 chasing 209.He hit the winning 6 and took his taem to victory.For the remainder of the series Joel Garner overshadowed him greatly. Although part of the champion West Indian pace quartet in the 1980-81 series agaisnt England at home and in 1981-82 in Australia Roberst was not his old self and was overshadowed by Michael Holding and Colin Croft.However he came back superbly with 4-61 in the final tset at Adelaide in 1981-82 and reagined form in the 1982-83 seies at home against India.Here he had the highest wicket aggregate capturing 24 wickets at 22.7 runs apiece.He brillinatly dismissed Sunil Gavaskar with moving balls outside the offstump and his bouncers,off-cutters and short lifting balls were unplayable at timesfor the Indian batsman.Technically competent batsman like Ravi Shastri,Dilip Vengsrkar Etc were all troubled.In the first test at Kinston he ripped through the Indian batting line up capturing 4 wickets in the final seesion after tea on the final day and setting the launching pad for abrilliant Wst Indian win.Unable to fend off lifters the Indian batsman were groping,just when the tset seemed to be drifting into a draw.Andy was alos a menaceatBarbados again being a thorn in the flesh. capturing 8 wickets. I the 1983 World Cup he bolwed brilliantly in the final capturing 3-32,better tha Marshall,Garner and Holding.He produced abrilliant outswinger to dimiss Gavaskar and looked to have set up awin for his team after India were dismised for 183.When his team capitualted ifor 140 t came as a shock and that could not have been revealed better by the baffled expression on Roberts's face when he was 9th out. In 1983-84 he was insuccessful i InNdia but played amajor role in the 5th test at Calcutta scoring a swashbuckling 68 with the bat and capturing 8 wickets.India went down by an inings and the World Cup defeat was avenged with West Indies beating India 3-0.When Andy came into bat his taem was 211-8,before he shared a record 9th wicket stand with skipper Clive Lloyd.It is significant that it was Andy who supported Lloyd in WEst Indies re-establishing their world champion status. In 1984 he retired .In that yaer WEst Indies achieved the then record og 11 consecutive test wins.Andy Roberts was the pioneer of that taem's succes in terms of fast bowling. After his retirement he became a coach but was hardly efective in helping Wst Indies mantain their champion status.He is critical of the currect laws in Cricket restricting boucersand feels helmets have spoiled batsman.Andy rates Viv Richards the best batsman he has seen .Andy was a person of very few words who was more immersed in his music ,but still a very good human being at heart.He has always kept out of controversy.His coaching of Curtly Ambrose was his significant performance in his coaching career. Mat Balls R W BBI BBM Ave Econ SR 5 10 overall 47 11135 5174 202 7/54 12/121 25.61 2.78 55.1 11 2 home 18 4174 2070 72 5/39 9/100 28.75 2.97 57.9 2 0 away 29 6961 3104 130 7/54 12/121 23.87 2.67 53.5 9 2 matches won 21 4650 2119 110 7/54 9/59 19.26 2.73 42.2 5 0 matches drawn 18 4541 2126 54 5/60 10/123 39.37 2.80 84.0 3 1 matches lost 8 1944 929 38 7/64 12/121 24.44 2.86 51.1 3 1 2.Michael Holding-The Rolls Royce There could be no apt word than describing Michael Holding as a Rolls Royce.Watching him bowl was like witnessing poetry in motion.His rythmic approach with his long rup up and final follow through was more reminiscent of a ballad dancer than a fast bowler.The ball would come through with aspeed of lightning perhaps faster than any other bowler in the game.No fast bowler ever had such consistent speed through the air.No fast bolwer ever had abetter action.He was a master at the art of bio-mechanics. Holding had a hurdlerÃÔ legs and had been a champion athlete in his schooldays. He was 400metre University champion.Holding did not posses the typical muscular,b road shouldered build of most exponents of the bolwing art. In delivery-time he cocked his wrist in the shape of a cobraÃÔ head The maestro made his debut on the 1975-76 Australian tour where his team was humiliated.He displayed his amazing ability to generate pace and even injured Geg Chappell in Sydney but his taem got a5-1 humiliation and hje was injured for most of the series.Then he learnt a lot from Andy Roberts, at that time at the peak of his carrer. In 1975-76 Holding was a terror against India when he captured 19 wickets at 19 apiece.He bowled superby in Trinidad in the 3rd test in the 1st Innings but in the 2nd Innings was demoralised by asuperb Indian batting line up who scored a record 406 run chase in the 4 th innings.At Kingston he took ample revenge and mesmerised the Indian batsman with shorpitched stuff -more like a soldier showering bullets from a machine gun in battle.IHe got the ball to rise steeply of a good length and injured the likes of Vishwanath Gaekwad and Mohinder Amarnath. In the 1976 Englsih Summer Holding captured 28 wickets and at the Oval in the final test produced perhaps the greatest ever spell of fast bowling in test Cricket..On the deadest of wickets as flat as a pancake he ran through a class English batting line up making them look like club cricketers.He captured 14 victims for 149 runs -all his victims either bowled or leg-before.There was no greater sight than seeing this maestro run in with the grace of an antelope and perform his final arm thrust with the grace of a violinist strutting his violin.His deliveries simply rattled like a bullet shot out of a gun. The pitch was so flat that it would not let a ball bounce above stamp highThe outfield was so parched that all the shine was vittually shredded of the ball. He missed the 1976=77 series at home against Pakistan but in Packer Cricket he was consistently the quickest bowler.He bolwed some blistering spells troubling the likes of Barry Richards and the Chappell brothers.In one match he captured 5 wickets enabling his team to win defending a mere 100 odd runs,skittling the opposition for less than 70.At times batsman wished to face Andy Roberts in preference to Holding! He came back to official Cricket in 1979 and captured 12 wickets in the 1979 World Cup,on par with Garner and Croft.On the 1979-80 Australian tour his 14 wickets played acrucial role in the West Indies winning their first seies in Australia.He was economical in the one day I nternationals. In his later career Holding reduced his pace and shortened his run up.He began to bowl more intelligently In1980 he bowled consistently in England and followed that up capturing 17 wickets in ahome series against England in 1980-81.In that series at Kingston he bowled perpaps the fastest over ever bolwed in test Cricket clean bolwing Geoff Boycott. It was like seeing a programed bolwing machine. In 1981 Holding bowled what was possibly the best ever over in the history oft he game. Graham Gooch standing at the non-strikerÃÔ end never witnessed such a brilliant over in his entire career. He stated it was not just the pace but he sheer bowling skill. Geoff Boycott who faced the over felt it was the best over he ever faced. The first delivery was short of a length and gloved Boycott, the 2nd was short and the batsman missed it as it bounced,t he third nipped back and hit Boycott on theleft thigh,,the forth bounced and he batsman played it to gully,, the fifth was ac arbon copy of the fourth, while the final delivery cartwheeled Geoff BoycottÃÔ stumps It almost looked like a programmed bowling machine was functioning. Holding bowled with the skill of surgeon combined with the ferocity of cheetah running and th epace of a bullet coming out of a machine gun.That over will be spoken of till Cricket exixts In 1981-82 Holding bolwed like an emperor on the Australain tour capturing 24 wickest in 3 tests.He was a thorn in the flesh to a strong Australian batting line up and now developed prodigious swing and cut ,with immaculate control.He took 5 wickets 4 times overshadowing the great Dennis Lillee and perhaps gave the greatset ever exhibtion of any overseas fast bolwer in Australia.Here he proved his versatlity. In 1982-83 he did not perform well in ahom,e series agaisnt India but came back in the World cup and did particularly well in a 6 tset series in India capturing 30 wickets.Before the 6th test he had captured one more wicket than Malcolm Marshall.It was an exhibition seeing how he now bowled on placid tracks with ashorter run up, but mastering swing and cut.To me he bowled more inteliigently than Malcolm Marshall or Kapil Dev(leading wicket takers with 33 apiece)and often outthinked batsman like Sunil Gavaskar. He continued good form in home and away series against Australia and in aseries i England in 1984.At Perth in 1984-95 his 6-21 was aclassic which sent Australia rocking to 111.(Had a better average than Marshall in that serise but only played 3 tests)However he was oivershadowed by Malcolm Marshall in this period and by Joel Garner to an extent.He retired after ahome series against England at home.By 1986 he was below his peak and he retired.It is sad that he could not play further.A great part of his career was affected by injury. Often he was called aøhispering death?The memorise of this genius will live through our hearts till the game exists. Career averages SpanMatInnsBallsRunsWktsBBIBBMAveEconSR510 overall 1975-1987 60 113 12680 5898 249 8/92 14/149 23.68 2.79 50.9 13 2 home 1976-1986 23 42 4313 2043 86 6/65 7/114 23.75 2.84 50.1 2 0 away 1975-1987 37 71 8367 3855 163 8/92 14/149 23.65 2.76 51.3 11 2 3.Comparison. Although he captured 202 wickets at 25.61 statistics hardly suggest how great Andy Roberts was.Andy may not have had the speed of Jeff Thomson,the ferocity of Malcolm Marshall ,the accuracy of Joel Garner or the smooth classical action of Michael Holding ,but he was after Lillee the most complete bolwer of his era,with deadly control..In his era he was the most versatile pace bowler after Dennis Lillee.No paceman resemble Dennis Lille as much as Andy .Roberts posessed a huge armoury of deliveries.He had 2 bouncers-a slower one and an inreadable unplayable faster one which often got him awicket.He had a superb off -cutter,leg-cutter and outswinger and could bring back a 120 over old ball to cut back.His only weaknes was that he did not have an effective yorker.He had a quicker ball and a slower ball and was brilliant in deploying changes in pace.His action was most economical and he extracted bounce from the deadest pitches .Dennis Lillee rates Andy the best fast bowler of his era while Sunil Gavaskar,the greatset opening batsman of the modern era (having faced Holding,Thomson Lillee and Marshall) rates him the best fast bolwer he has ever faced.Ian Chappel rates him the best of the WEst Indies quickies as he felt Michael Holding was fast but'only fast.'Greg Chappell,the best Australian batsman after Bradman rates Andy the closest ever to Dennis Lillee.Alvin Kalicharan selects Andy Roberts in his all-time with Dennis Lillee,stating that he was in a different class from Holding or Marshall.Mushtaq Muhammad rates Lillee and Andy Roberts as the best paceman of his era while Barry Richards selects Andy with Lillee in his all -time 11.while11 Remember Andy had to solely bear the brunt of the attack in India in 1974-75 and in Australia in 1975-76.It was he who laid the foundation for the invincible pace quartet.To me he is a worthy contender for the title of the best West Indies fast bowler ever and is amongst the top half dozen fast bowlers of all time.Michael Holding or Malcom Marshall were not as versatile and did not posess as much control above all what was remarkable that he never resotred to sledging his opponents and let his bowling do all the talking.This became a charasterictic trend in West Indian Cricket. Holding captured 249 wickets in 60 tests at 23.68 wit 13 5 wicket hauls.SSome rate him the greatest West Indian bowler ever as he had the most consistent sheer speed through the air accompanied with an both-ways swing and bounce.He was also extremely economical.Imran Khan rates him the most perfect bowler he has seen.Mike Procter,an all-time great South African allrounder,Lawrence Rowe,Majid Khan and Asif Iqbal choose Holding in their all-time11 to accompany Dennis Lillee with the new ball.A former Australian graet Neil Hasrvey chhoose Holding to accompany Lindwall in his all-time team.and so does Trevor Bailey.John woodcock in his 100 best cricketers of all infact places Holding above Marshal,in 65 th place.All this is debatable but to me there is no fast bowler who has given me more pleasure watching. Michael Holding possessed control ,versatility, perfect action combined with sheer speed.He had the best action, could do everything with the ball ,had superb accuracy and control and was consistently fast. Marshall may have been more menacing, Joel Garner more accurate,Andy Roberts more versatile and intelligent but Holding was the most aesthetic. His bowling on the 1981-82 tour of Australia to me is the best fast bowling seen in Australia by an overseas bowler in the post-war era. Imran Khan rates Holding closest to the perfect bowler.He felt Holding was consistently the fastest,had the best action, could move the ball both ways and do everything with the ball at a slower pace. Len Hutton also thought Holding was the best of the West Indian bowlers. Holding could bounce the ball very near to the bat which was often unplayable. He posssed a deadly Yorker which could penetrate the rock-like defence of great batsman like Mohinder Amarnath. It reminded you a spear running through a boulder.Javed Miandad also compares Holding as the closest challenger to Dennis Lillee.To his credit Holding has bowled the best ever spell and over in test match cricket. In Richard Sydenham's all time11 lists of cricketers.Holding has been selected in 11 all-time elevens against Roberts 5. The greatest opening batsman of all,Barry Richards and Sunil Gavaskar chose Roberts as well as the likes of the Chappell brothers.The best fast bowler of all time Dennis Lille choosing Roberts as well as Greg Chappell ,the best Australian batsman after Bradman making the same choice is also significant.Holding has superior statistics in terms of strike rate and average.Holding's strike rate is 50.7 compared to Roberts 54.5 and Holding's average is 23.68 compared to Robert's 25.61 .However Roberts had captured 100 wickets faster than any paceman ever and from 1974-1979,adding the Packer statistics marginally edged Holding in his peak.Robert's first 103 wickets were captured at a phenomenal strike rate and average,that too when t single-handedly carrying the brunt of the West Indian pace attack.My verdict may go to Roberts ,by a margin shorter than a hair's breadth,who I think was more lethal than Holding. We can't deny that watching the pair was one of cricket's greatest sights! Holding and Roberts combined may have constituted the best pace bowler ever.
Robelinda Posted October 5, 2012 Posted October 5, 2012 Having seen extensive footage of both, and seen live matches, i would rate them VERY close together, Roberts was more dangerous but often bowled within himself and loped in some of the time, wheras Holding steamed in all the time. Would be a nightmare facing them together at other ends.
rkt.india Posted October 5, 2012 Posted October 5, 2012 [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ve3HwMgLyus]My XI - Geoffrey Boycott: Michael Holding - 'The fastest, and then some' - YouTube[/ame]
Ultimate_Game Posted October 5, 2012 Posted October 5, 2012 Marshall and Ambrose would be my first 2 picks from WI but between Robers and Holding, would pick Holding. But you can't go wrong with either pick IMO.
King Tendulkar Posted October 6, 2012 Posted October 6, 2012 Boycott saying Holding is the fastest bowler he ever faced. Thats hell of a compliment
rkt.india Posted October 6, 2012 Posted October 6, 2012 Boycott saying Holding is the fastest bowler he ever faced. Thats hell of a compliment He is probably right, but he faced Jeff Thomson too who was any day faster than Holding. These two were the two fastest bowlers at that time.
King Tendulkar Posted October 6, 2012 Posted October 6, 2012 He is probably right' date=' but he faced Jeff Thomson too who was any day faster than Holding. These two were the two fastest bowlers at that time.[/quote'] Well he faced both and is saying holding
rkt.india Posted October 6, 2012 Posted October 6, 2012 Well he faced both and is saying holding you ask him about Thomson and he will say the same.:giggle:
King Tendulkar Posted October 6, 2012 Posted October 6, 2012 you ask him about Thomson and he will say the same.:giggle::haha:
rkt.india Posted October 6, 2012 Posted October 6, 2012 :haha: here's Jeff Thompson. These 4 balls tell you about how quick he was. [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8tFgtzeA2M]Jeff Thomson bowling I - YouTube[/ame] here's Holding in one of his quickest spell. [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-f5pfBgpNE]Michael Holding gets annoyed at Brian Close - YouTube[/ame]
panther Posted October 6, 2012 Posted October 6, 2012 one way to tell how quick a bowler is by the way the keeper takes the ball you can see in the thompson video palms upwards fingers ponting to the sky that shows he was pretty rapid. now look at this video and you can see it's a speed gun error simply from the way the kepper collects the ball. JXB1oVwO0gM
rkt.india Posted October 6, 2012 Posted October 6, 2012 one way to tell how quick a bowler is by the way the keeper takes the ball you can see in the thompson video palms upwards fingers ponting to the sky that shows he was pretty rapid. now look at this video and you can see it's a speed gun error simply from the way the kepper collects the ball. :facepalm: So does pitch not play any role in bounce or the distance wicket keeper is standing? Aaron is bowling on Indian pitch that is the difference. If you had watched 2nd SF between Aus and WI, Cummins bowled a 152K bouncer which barely carried to the keeper. Look at how far the keeper is standing of Aaron's bowling, very close to 30-yard circle, and compare that to the other video. Other thing, Thompson looks to be clocking 155K plus there easily. Batsman cannot pt the bat to ball. Watch this. This is the kind of pace Thompson is clocking there. [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRQ-S4LFGzg]Shaun "The Wild Thing" Tait - Very Fast Over vs Pakistan MCG T20 2009/10 HD - YouTube[/ame]
panther Posted October 6, 2012 Posted October 6, 2012 :facepalm: So does pitch not play any role in bounce or the distance wicket keeper is standing? look at how far the keeper is standing of Aaron's bowling, very close to 30-yard circle, and compare that to the other video. Other thing, Thompson looks to be clocking 155K plus there easily. Batsman cannot pt the bat to ball. example sharja pitch check the bouncer at 0:55 eiF_6i2DFes&feature=player_embedded
rkt.india Posted October 6, 2012 Posted October 6, 2012 example sharja pitch check the bouncer at 0:55 Bro the video of Aaron you have put, watch that video at 0:12 which was clocked 143 and look where keeper collected that so then that must quicker than what it showed on screen because it bounced more and keeper collected fingers pointing the sky and see that how ball bounced.
panther Posted October 6, 2012 Posted October 6, 2012 Bro the video of Aaron you have put' date=' watch that video at 0:12 and see that how ball bounced. In this, it was a bouncer. Aaron's ball is not a bouncer.[/quote'] that 143k looks about right, the point I am making is that 153k ball is a speed gun error.
rkt.india Posted October 6, 2012 Posted October 6, 2012 that 143k looks about right' date=' the point I am making is that 153k ball is a speed gun error.[/quote'] How can you say that? If 153k was error than 143 should be an error as it looked quicker than what it showed. Yesterday Cummins bowled at 152K and ball barely carried to WK.
panther Posted October 6, 2012 Posted October 6, 2012 that ball by thompson at 0:30 is comparable to this bouncer( first ball) CWwLblgBeJ8
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