Who was the best allrounder after Sir Gary Sobers?

[Lurker]

Off the top of my head, I can recall him taking a big haul of wickets at Headingly a few years back. But Wisden rankings can only tell you so much anyways. Don't think Sobers had a top 100 bowling performance either while Azhar Mehmood makes an appearance in the top 10 of batting. Go figure.

Oh come on Shwetabh, surely you realize Azhar Mehmood's inning is an outlier rather than a consistent pattern of any kind. Obviously I am not using Wisden Ratings as my deciding factor but my assertion is if you are an all-rounder surely there are expectations that you deliver on both streams atleast once in a while? If you include Test and LOI ratings, as an all-rounder you have 4 opportunities(2 each for bowling and batting). Kapil makes the list atleast 3 times. Thats a pattern. Azhar mehmood makes the list once. Thats an outlier. Kallis has none as a bowler. Thats a pattern too. No? Does Kallis have any innings as a batsman? I am not sure.

Kapil and Botham are dead last in batting averages of batsmen with more than 5000 runs along with Boucher: http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;orderby=batting_average;orderbyad=reverse;qualmin1=5000;qualval1=runs;size=100;template=results;type=batting On the other hand there are quite a few bowlers with worse averages than Kallis with more than 200 wickets: http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;orderby=bowling_average;orderbyad=reverse;qualmin2=200;qualval2=wickets;size=100;template=results;type=bowling Now I am not saying that Kallis is necessarily a better bowler than others in the list, but it's quite a stretch to state that Kallis would have struggled if he opened the bowling while Kapil and Botham would have flourished batting in the top 4.

That may prove my point, no? Kapil and Botham were not far worse than say a Ranatunga or Carl Hooper. These were specialist batsmen. You can not look at Kallis's stats of less than 1 wicket per innings and claim him as was as close to specialist bowler as Kapil/Botham were to batsmen, can you?

[vvvslaxman]

Kapil is a much better batsman than the stats suggest.. Throughout the eighties there were often talks about how Kapil was not justifying his batting potential. Fantastic counter attacking batsman who laid best fast bowling attacks to waste on his day.

[maniac]

^^Just to add to my earlier point...I still rate Kallis as the best allrounder in the past 10-12 years and I am not trying to drag his acheivement. The only problem I have is to call him the greatest allrounder to play the game

[Lurker]

Kapil is a much better batsman than the stats suggest.. Throughout the eighties there were often talks about how Kapil was not justifying his batting potential. Fantastic counter attacking batsman who laid best fast bowling attacks to waste on his day.

++ That fact gets lost increasingly as generation changes and younger lot can only relate to yesteryear greats with numbers. Anytime you hear any past great talk about him, you hear them wonder Why didnt Kapil score more runs?? Gavaskar perhaps summed it up best when he said Kapil would always score runs when it was needed, whenever Indian needed runs he would score them. Not bad considering he was also bailing us out with bowling every time we needed. Personally I always thought his Dev(il)-may-care atitude was what made him Kapil Dev. The first delivery he faced after being dropped for disciplinary reasons, he sent soaring for six over covers lol. Yeah try putting that in stats :two_thumbs_up:

[Crookbond]

Peak doesn't mean a time when he was the best bowler in a match or a single series....I am referring to more of a phase in their career and the overall impact they had and how long that particular phase lasted. Afridi was one of the highest wicket takers in the worldcup but was he the No1 bowling option for Pak even during the worldcup?....and when I say No 1 doesn't mean the position he bowls in but as an option but statistically he is superior than some of the higher rated allrounders....so tdoesn't that say something.

I get your point. For the first 8 years of his career (1996-2003) Kallis averaged lesser than 30 as a bowler in Test cricket. Is that good enough for you?

[vvvslaxman]

Let me put this way.. If Gods gives me two choices 1) Kapil 2) Kallis i would pick Kapil 100 out of 100 times.

[Crookbond]

Kapil is a much better batsman than the stats suggest.. Throughout the eighties there were often talks about how Kapil was not justifying his batting potential. Fantastic counter attacking batsman who laid best fast bowling attacks to waste on his day.

Likewise argument could be made for Kallis too. :--D

[Sachin=GOD]

Likewise argument could be made for Kallis too. :--D

Not really.

[vvvslaxman]

Likewise argument could be made for Kallis too. :--D

You sure can. It is my opinion. Having seen both,, if i am given a choice to pick an all rounder for Indian side he won't be in the top 4 for me.

[The Outsider]

Oh come on Shwetabh, surely you realize Azhar Mehmood's inning is an outlier rather than a consistent pattern of any kind. Obviously I am not using Wisden Ratings as my deciding factor but my assertion is if you are an all-rounder surely there are expectations that you deliver on both streams atleast once in a while? If you include Test and LOI ratings, as an all-rounder you have 4 opportunities(2 each for bowling and batting). Kapil makes the list atleast 3 times. Thats a pattern. Azhar mehmood makes the list once. Thats an outlier. Kallis has none as a bowler. Thats a pattern too. No? Does Kallis have any innings as a batsman? I am not sure.

I did give you an example that I could recall. Here is the scorecard: http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63805.html Wisden rankings came out in 2001 and barely covered 5 years of Kallis' career and it's quite possible that one of his innings in batting would make the cut now.

That may prove my point, no? Kapil and Botham were not far worse than say a Ranatunga or Carl Hooper. These were specialist batsmen. You can not look at Kallis's stats of less than 1 wicket per innings and claim him as was as close to specialist bowler as Kapil/Botham were to batsmen, can you?

Kallis has played 160 test matches and is a 37 year old pace bowler. Surely you can't expect him to keep bowling lots of overs at an age when Botham and Kapil had been retired for several years and Imran was playing mainly as a batsman. If you take his first 75 tests, he has 1.3 wickets per innings an average of 30, and a strike rate of 65. Those are good numbers, specially the strike rate. After the age of 30, he has obviously bowled less because his batting is much more important to the side and his wickets per innings has taken a hit, but his strike rate has remained in the same range. He has a better bowling average than Kaneria, Martin, Vettori, Qadir, and Flintoff and slightly worse than Harbhajan and Zaheer. Kapil and Botham do not average better than any specialist batsman.

[Lurker]

Likewise argument could be made for Kallis too. :--D

Really? I remember Wasim Akram talking glowingly about Kapil Dev and suggesting Kapil should have scored atleast 2000 more runs. I cant recall anyone suggesting Kallis should have had 400 wickets insteas of his 280 plus today! If anything most fans are taken aback when they realize Kallis has 280 or so wickets. They generally go - Wow never knew that, he must a terrific all-rounder. See the difference :winky:

[Raghav_12]

Don't think so. Kallis is an ATG and good batsman. But second best allrounder of all time - NO way. He plays in team as second support bowler to main bowlers. Doesn't even average 2 wickets per test. All rounders are who can be expected to turn match from either of the skills. But you would hardly expect kallis to change the match with his bowling.

[Crookbond]

Really? I remember Wasim Akram talking glowingly about Kapil Dev and suggesting Kapil should have scored atleast 2000 more runs. I cant recall anyone suggesting Kallis should have had 400 wickets insteas of his 280 plus today! If anything most fans are taken aback when they realize Kallis has 280 or so wickets. They generally go - Wow never knew that, he must a terrific all-rounder. See the difference :winky:

This is a matter of personal perspective - was my point. FYI, a lot of people also feel that Kapil chugged along 400 only to break the record. :winky: Also, Kallis is not done yet! The point I was suggesting is the fallacies in argument. Since, those are fallacies you can turn the argument over it's head and come to another conclusion (exactly opposite) and make it sound plausible. You can never even with a high degree of confidence say Kallis would not have reached 400 wickets. He played in a team with good fast bowlers and hence, was the product of his time.

[Lurker]

I did give you an example that I could recall. Here is the scorecard: http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63805.html Wisden rankings came out in 2001 and barely covered 5 years of Kallis' career and it's quite possible that one of his innings in batting would make the cut now.

Yaar thats a good spell by all means. Still 5 wickets in 2 innings for 32 runs, great as it is, is hardly the kind I was looking for. Not to demean Kallis by any means, or your choice, but even Madan Lal took 5-23 once :((

Kallis has played 160 test matches and is a 37 year old pace bowler. Surely you can't expect him to keep bowling lots of overs at an age when Botham and Kapil had been retired for several years and Imran was playing mainly as a batsman. If you take his first 75 tests, he has 1.3 wickets per innings an average of 30, and a strike rate of 65. Those are good numbers, specially the strike rate. After the age of 30, he has obviously bowled less because his batting is much more important to the side and his wickets per innings has taken a hit, but his strike rate has remained in the same range. He has a better bowling average than Kaneria, Martin, Vettori, Qadir, and Flintoff and slightly worse than Harbhajan and Zaheer. Kapil and Botham do not average better than any specialist batsman.

Fair enough. Your point about him bowling more earlier on is well taken. :two_thumbs_up:

[The Outsider]

Just to clarify, I am not saying Kallis is the second best all rounder ever. However, there is not much to choose between the likes of Kallis, Imran, Kapil, Botham, Miller. If Kallis is not some top notch bowler, then neither were Kapil and Botham some top notch batsmen. In fact, Kallis' batting would put him in the top 5 or so batsmen of his generation, but neither Kapil nor Botham would make the top 5 bowlers of their generation.

[Crookbond]

Just to clarify' date=' I am not saying Kallis is the second best all rounder ever. However, there is not much to choose between the likes of Kallis, Imran, Kapil, Botham, Miller. If Kallis is not some top notch bowler, then neither were Kapil and Botham some top notch batsmen. In fact, Kallis' batting would put him in the top 5 or so batsmen of his generation, but neither Kapil nor Botham would make the top 5 bowlers of their generation.[/quote'] This is exactly my point as well.

[vvvslaxman]

wikipedia definition There is no precise qualification for a player to be considered an all-rounder and use of the term tends to be subjective. The generally accepted criterion is that a "genuine all-rounder" is someone whose batting or bowling skills, considered alone, would be good enough to win them a place in the team for which they play.[1] Another definition of a "genuine all-rounder" is a player who can through both batting and bowling (though not necessarily both in the same match), consistently "win matches for the team" (i.e., propel his/her team to victory by an outstanding individual performance). By either definition, a genuine all-rounder is quite rare and extremely valuable to a team as he effectively operates as two players.

[The Outsider]

Yaar thats a good spell by all means. Still 5 wickets in 2 innings for 32 runs, great as it is, is hardly the kind I was looking for. Not to demean Kallis by any means, or your choice, but even Madan Lal took 5-23 once :((

Oops, I linked the wrong scorecard: http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/64041.html

[maniac]

I get your point. For the first 8 years of his career (1996-2003) Kallis averaged lesser than 30 as a bowler in Test cricket. Is that good enough for you?[/QUOTE] Yes he did....closer to 30 though but again...Stats can be used to tell stories the way you want to look at it....Kallis played 73 matches in this period from debut to dec 31 2003... where he averaged 29.54...which is phenomenal given that his batting average was also 50 during this period. Now remove Zim and Bangladesh from the equation....his batting average falls to 43 :omg: ...but his bowling is still superb for an allrounder at 31.02 http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/45789.html?class=1;filter=advanced;opposition=1;opposition=2;opposition=4;opposition=5;opposition=6;opposition=7;opposition=8;orderby=default;spanmax1=31+Dec+2003;spanval1=span;team=3;template=results;type=allround Now let us talk about my earlier point about peak...now let us remove WI from the equation against whom he always performed and had a golden series....his batting average falls to 40 and bowling average to 35.00 from a decent 55 test matches....still not bad but do you consider his impact in the same way? http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/45789.html?class=1;filter=advanced;opposition=1;opposition=2;opposition=5;opposition=6;opposition=7;opposition=8;orderby=default;spanmax1=31+Dec+2003;spanval1=span;team=3;template=results;type=allround Now let us go further and remove England against who he did extremely well too His batting average is still at 40 and bowling average falls further to 38.00 and wickets colum goes down to 69 from 40 tests Now I went a step further and removed Srilanka against whom he did well too and then his final stats stand at a decent batting average of 44.00 and and bowling average of 42.00 and the sample size is more than decent at 30 test matches....Can we call that an impactful performance? http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/45789.html?class=1;filter=advanced;opposition=2;opposition=5;opposition=6;opposition=7;orderby=default;spanmax1=31+Dec+2003;spanval1=span;team=3;template=results;type=allround There you go...Please feel free to play around :winky:

[maniac]

Just to clarify' date=' I am not saying Kallis is the second best all rounder ever. However, there is not much to choose between the likes of Kallis, Imran, Kapil, Botham, Miller. If Kallis is not some top notch bowler, then [b']neither were Kapil and Botham some top notch batsmen. In fact, Kallis' batting would put him in the top 5 or so batsmen of his generation, but neither Kapil nor Botham would make the top 5 bowlers of their generation.

Kapil,Botham and for the matter of fact Imran were required as batsmen in their X1 more often than Kallis the bowler. While it will be unfair to Kallis as a stock bowler...His bowling was an added asset to his team and not a requirement whereas in the case of those 3 their batting was an absolute neccesity.