We can't succeed unless we improve our bowling. Period.

[jairamesh]

I haven't watched this series, but just browsing the scorecards, the bowlers haven't done that bad. In both ODIs, cumulatively they didn't go any where near 6 RPO. In both games it seems they restricted Pakistan to par score of 250. So can't really blame the bowlers. And I am positive the likes of Yadav, Shami, Pankaj, and Awana will start coming through. Bigger worry is the consistent failure of Sehwag and Gambhir in all formats now. Really time to drop BOTH. Also Sehwag's fielding and running has gone to the dogs in the past 12 months.

[CSK Fan]

Pls read the OP again. You cannot rely on batting every time. .

I dont know where you have been past six months, but your statement is laughable. Our batting has equally sucked as our bowling in recent months. For example, both the matches in this series were low scoring ones. Forget every time, we cannot rely on our batting at all. Pujara and Kohli are too new. Our openers suck, our middle order is non-existant. Dont know what you are talking about

[Laaloo]

Stick to the TOPIC

[CSK Fan]

Problem is we can't rely on our bowlers to win us matched even on pitches which has something in it for bowlers. No way was today's pitch a 250 pitch and in the last game 228 was a pretty decent score given the conditions and grass on the pitch. problem is that we rely on our batting so much that we will need to out-bat opponents even on a bowler-friendly pitch which won't happen too many times. If we have to get better in all formats we have to do something about our bowling else playing on flat patta pitches where bowlers don't matter and 320 is the par score only option left for us.

I dont know which world you are living in 1) Problem is we cannot rely on our batsman even on the most patta pitch these days 2) Problem is we cannot rely on our batting at all these days so I dont understand why you keep repeating that we rely on our batting Accept it, our batting at the moment is similar or in worse form than our bpwling

[CSK Fan]

Stick to the TOPIC

??

[CSK Fan]

So the jist is, our bowling is still the same or a bit weakened than 2 years ago. Our batting on the other hand has gone downhill

[Yoda-esque]

This debacle is actually about batsmen having a massive loss of confidence.Kudos to Pak but the England series took the wind out of the sails. The last time I saw the batting in such shambles was the period before the 2003 WC. Its good..we need to lose a few more before the rebuilding starts again

[Laaloo]

??

Wasn't for you. It was for Critical_riff who posted after you.

[Number]

This debacle is actually about batsmen having a massive loss of confidence.Kudos to Pak but the England series took the wind out of the sails. The last time I saw the batting in such shambles was the period before the 2003 WC. Its good..we need to lose a few more before the rebuilding starts again

We had a bad tour of NZ just before that where pitches were tough and team could hardly score 200. Many of the batsman went with the same form in the world cup but after a couple of failures they realized something is seriously wrong. Now we have players who are sleeping in denial for 2 years.

[Yoda-esque]

We had a bad tour of NZ just before that where pitches were tough and team could hardly score 200. Many of the batsman went with the same form in the world cup but after a couple of failures they realized something is seriously wrong. Now we have players who are sleeping in denial for 2 years.

You are right..This is even worse but its been compounded by severe lack of confidence. Time to take a step back and introspect.

[Ultimate_Game]

I dont know where you have been past six months' date=' but your statement is laughable. Our batting has equally sucked as our bowling in recent months. For example, both the matches in this series were low scoring ones. Forget every time, we cannot rely on our batting at all. Pujara and Kohli are too new. Our openers suck, our middle order is non-existant. Dont know what you are talking about[/quote'] Yup our batting has sucked balls since the WC barring a few Kohli/Dhoni specials. I expect india to rectify this problem by infusing new blood but the real problem is the bowling. When you look at the bowling card there's no even one bowler whom you can rely on to take wkts or which the opponents have to account for. Even in 90s when our team wasn't that special we at least had Kumble & Srinath. Now there's absolutely no one. Even this series we actually got bowler friendly pitches but our bowlers couldn't make the most of it. On a green seaming track at Chennai Pakis omped home by 6 wkts and at Eden Gardens 250 was above par. Even if we get our batting fixed we will still need to sort our bowling woes and unearth a few wkt taking bowlers as we can't hope to contend with the likes of SA, Aus, Eng and maybe WI in the 2015 WC. And given the new odi rules our bowling weaknesses become ever more glaring. Earlier we could hope to have our batting all-rounders lik Yuvi/raina/Jadeja to get through their quota of overs but with 5 fielders in the circle, 2 new balls per innings, 2 bouncers per over we simply can't compete with likes of SA & Aus. We have to start finding answers to our bowling woes soon as we can't expect our batting to win the matches the way they did 2 years back. With Pujara, rahane and youngsters in the batting can be improved but for bowling there's nobody on the horizon. Umesh is not suited to shorter format and should focus on Tests, Ishant will forever be unlucky, Varun Aaron unfortunately is destined to be injury prone. Likes of Dinda are not the answer and I hope BCCI focuses on our bowling woes else we will continue to suck in all formats.

[ganeshran]

Total lack of spine showed by batting in the 2 ODIs is far more worrying than our bowling weaknesses. Our bowlers are relatively new and should be given time to mature. You cant expect B Kumar, Dinda and their like to fire from day 1. Even then our bowlers did fight back brilliantly after a poor start. In the first ODI they did restrict Pakistan batting but they didnt have any runs to play with. The batting failures are completely inexcusable. Not one batsmen in the side is a rookie - Gambhir, Sehwag, Kohli, Raina, Yuvi, Dhoni and Rohit in the last game are established ODI batsmen. The way they crumbled today and in the first ODI showed complete lack of spine. Dhoni simply did not show the intent to win at any point. It was like a Bangbros chase which they give up half way through and then play to secure a semblance of respectability in defeat. There is no way our bowlers can be blamed for these two defeats. Despite bowling being our traditionally weaker department they showed decent amount of fight in both matches.

[ganeshran]

Problem is we can't rely on our bowlers to win us matched even on pitches which has something in it for bowlers. No way was today's pitch a 250 pitch and in the last game 228 was a pretty decent score given the conditions and grass on the pitch. problem is that we rely on our batting so much that we will need to out-bat opponents even on a bowler-friendly pitch which won't happen too many times. If we have to get better in all formats we have to do something about our bowling else playing on flat patta pitches where bowlers don't matter and 320 is the par score only option left for us.

How was 228 a decent score in the last game? Far from it. the pitch initially favored bowlers and went completely dead afterwards. Pakistan saved their wickets initially and chased it down comfortably later. Our batsmen were 29/5 and killed any chance of a good score later on. If the score was 250+ there would have been considerable scoreboard pressure for them to go for their shots early on and lose their way. Today we were 93/5 on what was a decent batting surface. what happened afterwards was even bizarre. Dhoni just didnt show any fight at all. Just kept blocking till the rate went out of reach. I don't understand what was the need to block if he was never planning to go on an assault. Typical Bangladesh chase.

[Ultimate_Game]

How was 228 a decent score in the last game? Far from it. the pitch initially favored bowlers and went completely dead afterwards. Pakistan saved their wickets initially and chased it down comfortably later. Our batsmen were 29/5 and killed any chance of a good score later on. If the score was 250+ there would have been considerable scoreboard pressure for them to go for their shots early on and lose their way. Today we were 93/5 on what was a decent batting surface. what happened afterwards was even bizarre. Dhoni just didnt show any fight at all. Just kept blocking till the rate went out of reach. I don't understand what was the need to block if he was never planning to go on an assault. Typical Bangladesh chase.

My point was we were lucky to have gotten away with our bowling shortcomings for so long. We even managed a WC where the batting pulled through without imploding in crunch games, but historically this is not the formula to success. You can't rely on batting to bail you out or to bat opponents out every time. That's the reason a good bowling side wins more matches than a good batting side. We made the most of our batting strength the last few years but to be successful in the longer run we need to start thinking of focusing on our bowling. Even if we hadn't collapsed in the two matches, fact remains when you look at our bowling card there's not one genuine threat. WC is 2 years down the line which will be played in Aus with 2 new balls, 5 fielders in the circle and 2 bouncers an over. We will come across bowling lineups with Steyn/Morkel/Philander, Pattinson/Cummins/Starc/Bird etc. How do we expect to compete when we have likes of Dinda/Kumars/Jadeja as our bowling "attack"? Even if our batsmen find form or we fix our batting woes by replacing the current lot with youngsters who perform (Rahane/Pujara etc.) the gap in bowling attacks would be too huge for us to compete with the better teams. That's the point I'm trying to make and not focused solely on this series. As for our bowling do you remember even one match our bowling has won for us? Occasionally champion teams have to defend a low to moderate score, but I don't recally even a single game where our bowling managed to win even one where batsmen hadn't put up a huge total. This approach is bound to fail as you can't rely on batsmen to post big totals every time. And in Aus bowlers will need to win matches and onus shouldn't be on the batsmen to post huge totals.

[ganeshran]

My point was we were lucky to have gotten away with our bowling shortcomings for so long. We even managed a WC where the batting pulled through without imploding in crunch games, but historically this is not the formula to success. You can't rely on batting to bail you out or to bat opponents out every time. That's the reason a good bowling side wins more matches than a good batting side. We made the most of our batting strength the last few years but to be successful in the longer run we need to start thinking of focusing on our bowling. Even if we hadn't collapsed in the two matches, fact remains when you look at our bowling card there's not one genuine threat. WC is 2 years down the line which will be played in Aus with 2 new balls, 5 fielders in the circle and 2 bouncers an over. We will come across bowling lineups with Steyn/Morkel/Philander, Pattinson/Cummins/Starc/Bird etc. How do we expect to compete when we have likes of Dinda/Kumars/Jadeja as our bowling "attack"? Even if our batsmen find form or we fix our batting woes by replacing the current lot with youngsters who perform (Rahane/Pujara etc.) the gap in bowling attacks would be too huge for us to compete with the better teams. That's the point I'm trying to make and not focused solely on this series. As for our bowling do you remember even one match our bowling has won for us? Occasionally champion teams have to defend a low to moderate score, but I don't recally even a single game where our bowling managed to win even one where batsmen hadn't put up a huge total. This approach is bound to fail as you can't rely on batsmen to post big totals every time. And in Aus bowlers will need to win matches and onus shouldn't be on the batsmen to post huge totals.

Bowling has traditionally been our weaker department. We have never been a great bowling side ever but still managed to remain competitive throughout the last decade including winning a world cup. Plus all our bowlers are new except Ishant who is making a comeback into the ODI side as well. The Batsmen have no such excuse. They have played tons of matches for India and are expected to score big or atleast put up defendable scores for the bowling to defend. The entire top order managed less than 100 in both matches. you can have McWarne in the bowling lineup and still lose 8 times out of 10 with this kind of batting. The defeats can still be forgotten, that is part and parcel of the game. But the way Dhoni played with a NRR of 8 is completely inexcusable. He never intended to go for the kill at all, just kept on meandering till the last 2 overs when Ishant got out. How can such an experienced player show such lack of intent is bizarre and beyond me.

[Ultimate_Game]

Bowling has traditionally been our weaker department. We have never been a great bowling side ever but still managed to remain competitive throughout the last decade including winning a world cup. Plus all our bowlers are new except Ishant who is making a comeback into the ODI side as well. The Batsmen have no such excuse. They have played tons of matches for India and are expected to score big or atleast put up defendable scores for the bowling to defend. The entire top order managed less than 100 in both matches. you can have McWarne in the bowling lineup and still lose 8 times out of 10 with this kind of batting. The defeats can still be forgotten, that is part and parcel of the game. But the way Dhoni played with a NRR of 8 is completely inexcusable. He never intended to go for the kill at all, just kept on meandering till the last 2 overs when Ishant got out. How can such an experienced player show such lack of intent is bizarre and beyond me.

That is the reason why we have been so poor historically. Over the last decade we were blessed with sone of the greatest batting lineup in the history of the game with 4 ATGs playing at the same time. Even during th WC we had one of the deepest batting lineup in the tourney. We were lucky enough in that respect but you can't bank on us having the same batting talent in the future. Let me ask you a question - given a bowler friendly pitch do you see us running through a batting lineup? I don't. Do you recall us bowling a side under 200 or defending a modest score over the last couple of years? I don't. Fact is we have lost our deep batting lineup and we are not going to get the same depth back. Even if we have likes of Rahane, Pujara etc. perform at intl level they are unlikely to replicate the successes of our batting lineup over the last decade. That's the reason it's time to focus on our bowling as looking for new Tendulkars/Dravids/Sehwags etc. is not gonna happen. Best option is to focus on our bowling starting at grass-roots level and ensure that our bowling depth increases. This is a far more feasible approach to success than hoping for us to replace one of the best batting lineups and hoping we can continue to bat opponents out of the game. It's not going to happen and it's time for administrators/selectors to admit the same and work on other strategies and focusing on bowling is a key one.

[ganeshran]

That is the reason why we have been so poor historically. Over the last decade we were blessed with sone of the greatest batting lineup in the history of the game with 4 ATGs playing at the same time. Even during th WC we had one of the deepest batting lineup in the tourney. We were lucky enough in that respect but you can't bank on us having the same batting talent in the future. Let me ask you a question - given a bowler friendly pitch do you see us running through a batting lineup? I don't. Do you recall us bowling a side under 200 or defending a modest score over the last couple of years? I don't. Fact is we have lost our deep batting lineup and we are not going to get the same depth back. Even if we have likes of Rahane, Pujara etc. perform at intl level they are unlikely to replicate the successes of our batting lineup over the last decade. That's the reason it's time to focus on our bowling as looking for new Tendulkars/Dravids/Sehwags etc. is not gonna happen. Best option is to focus on our bowling starting at grass-roots level and ensure that our bowling depth increases. This is a far more feasible approach to success than hoping for us to replace one of the best batting lineups and hoping we can continue to bat opponents out of the game. It's not going to happen and it's time for administrators/selectors to admit the same and work on other strategies and focusing on bowling is a key one.

Exactly but the point of contention here (atleast the one which I was making) are the current losses. The last two matches were lost because of the experienced batting lineup which is failing miserably, not even able to put up 100 without losing half the side and then the captain bizarrely giving up the chase half way through. As far as long term goes, it is understood that great bowlers are more valuable to a side than great batsmen, more so in the longer formats of the game. But just like we are not going to harvest Tendulkars and Dravids immediately, the same is happening with bowlers too. We will try out 10-15 bowlers before settling with decent ones. This process has already begun in the bowling department - we don't see any WC winning bowler (except Ashwin who just played one match) in the side. With this shuffling process, bowling is going to be our weaker option till it gets settled. Despite this, the bowling has held its own in both matches till now. Today our bowling fightback was in fact brilliant The batting side has no such excuse at all. These are not rookies whose places are being questioned. Kohli, Yuvi, Dhoni, Raina , Gambhir , Sehwag are all seasoned batsmen. With new bowlers being tried out, it is upto them to step up to the plate and ensure a smooth transition. Their failing miserably in this task should lead to their places in the side and leadership qualities questioned. We won the world cup with almost the same batting side in similar conditions.

[vvvslaxman]

Indian bowling strength is swing. They have to bring in more quality swing bowlers. And quality leggie is missing. Having said that India is more likely to produce a great batsman than great bowlers. Which bowler has an average of below 25.. including Kapil/Kumble. None. India won lot of matches recent times because they had good bowling UNIT than great bowling individuals. Even if you talk about great teams one good bowler is not going to do jack. Warne/Mcgrath had to complement each other, Murali probably was an exception.

[ganeshran]

Kumble's retirement, Zaheer's fitness and Harbhajan's form petering out had a huge impact on our bowling side. We simply had no one to replace them even after 2-3 years

[Ultimate_Game]

Exactly but the point of contention here (atleast the one which I was making) are the current losses. The last two matches were lost because of the experienced batting lineup which is failing miserably, not even able to put up 100 without losing half the side and then the captain bizarrely giving up the chase half way through. As far as long term goes, it is understood that great bowlers are more valuable to a side than great batsmen, more so in the longer formats of the game. But just like we are not going to harvest Tendulkars and Dravids immediately, the same is happening with bowlers too. We will try out 10-15 bowlers before settling with decent ones. This process has already begun in the bowling department - we don't see any WC winning bowler (except Ashwin who just played one match) in the side. With this shuffling process, bowling is going to be our weaker option till it gets settled. Despite this, the bowling has held its own in both matches till now. Today our bowling fightback was in fact brilliant The batting side has no such excuse at all. These are not rookies whose places are being questioned. Kohli, Yuvi, Dhoni, Raina , Gambhir , Sehwag are all seasoned batsmen. With new bowlers being tried out, it is upto them to step up to the plate and ensure a smooth transition. Their failing miserably in this task should lead to their places in the side and leadership qualities questioned. We won the world cup with almost the same batting side in similar conditions.

I was focusing on the bigger picture. I know that our batting depth is gone and won't come back. We may have some of the same players but they have aged and are not the same. Sehwag and Gambhir of 2013 vintage are not the same Sehwag & Gambhir from 2010-11. Hoping to have the same depth or for batting to perform at the same level is ignoring the facts. Quoting Billy Bean from Moneyball "Nobody's asking the right questions. We are trying to replace Giambi and Damon which we will not be able to. We should be looking at how we can get .333 batting average with xyz on base %ge". Same here. We can try to unearth Sehwags, Gambhirs, Tendulkars, Dhonis at their peak but we will not be able to. So how do we bridge the gap? By improving our bowling strength as it would be easier to do than trying to replace ATGs in the batting lineup. Just because we were never a bowling power-house doesn't mean we cannot have a decent bowling attack. Lot of things have changed over the past 15 years. India is now the powerhouse which runs cricket, India generates millions of dollars in revenues and Indian cricketers are richest cricketers in the world. So how do we make all these things work for us? For starters I would revamp the central contract system. We hand out contracts to players who are stars rather than focus on player positions. E.g., if we have 25 central contracts we have 18 contracts handed out to batsmen coz they performed well and 2-3 to bowlers like Zak or Ashwin. What I would do is make central contracts focused on positions, so out of 25 contracts have 9 contracts for batsmen, 9 for bowlers, 3 for wks and 4 for all-rounders. You can be evenmore specific by ear-marking 6 out of 9 bowling contracts for pacers. What this system will do is get youngsters to focus on other disciplines than just batting. Now youngsters only want to become batsmen as they see Tendulkars/Sehwags/Dravids/Laxmans etc. But once they see that someone like Manoj Tiwary didn't get the central contract as he wasn't one of the top 9 batsmen but likes of Dinda and B Kumar made millions as they were in the top 9 bowlers, more youngsters would want to become bowlers. Money talks and eventually we will see more bowlers come through. This is just one of the strategies. BCCI can revamp MRF pace academy or NCA, maybe have a partnership with Aussie cricket academy to train our youngsters and so on. But to get better we have to improve our bowling stocks else we will continue to be a mdiocre side.