Reminscing and stating the obvious - India's best keeper ever

[vvvslaxman]

Raghav and L'E, good point! Of all the counterpoints on this thread, looking at their stats relative to total number of dismissals per match is the most valid. Bowler, pitch-quality and even peer-comparisons are like splitting hairs. Another consideration is that, back in the day, they didn't have to bowl 90 overs per day, did they? So, it would be interesting to normalize their total dismissals by the the number of balls to which they kept. May sway it completely back in SMH's favor.

They had a rest day as well.

[Raghav_12]

They had a rest day as well.

they never wore a helmet as well.

[Texan]

THere was an article i remember posting about Kirmani's keeping sometime back from the 70s as how his keeping cost India badly.

How old are you? :yikes:

[saneindian]

they never wore a helmet as well.

Does this argument also hold true when batsmen from the 70s are compared to batsmen from 90s and later, giving an edge to the 70s batsmen or vice versa in case of bowlers?

[Raghav_12]

Does this argument also hold true when batsmen from the 70s are compared to batsmen from 90s and later' date=' giving an edge to the 70s batsmen or vice versa in case of bowlers?[/quote'] Does argument of "rest day" hold true? If you note my comment was in response of a particular argument.

[Crookbond]

Does argument of "rest day" hold true? If you note my comment was in response of a particular argument.

So who do you think is the best keeper India has had?

[Sidhoni]

Dhoni has kept to better pacers hence Kirmani is better than him. #Logic

[FischerTal]

all of you are wrong. best indian keeper was pappu patel :P

[FischerTal]

So who do you think is the best keeper India has had?

pappu patel :agree:

[The Outsider]

It also depends on the skills of the bowler to induce those edges.

Duh! Yes it does, but how is it relevant when comparing Binny and Madan Lal to Sreesanth and Ishant?

[The Outsider]

Raghav and L'E, good point! Of all the counterpoints on this thread, looking at their stats relative to total number of dismissals per match is the most valid. Bowler, pitch-quality and even peer-comparisons are like splitting hairs.

No, the most important point is the fact that Kirmani kept to pace bowlers for one third of total deliveries and Dhoni kept to them for half the total deliveries. Pace bowlers are twice as likely to have a wicket keeper dismissal than spinners.

[Crookbond]

Duh! Yes it does' date=' but how is it relevant when comparing Binny and Madan Lal to Sreesanth and Ishant?[/quote'] Weren't the pitches back then better for bowlers than they are now? Do you think that would have some effect? Btw, my personal best keeper India has ever had would be Farookh Engineer.

[The Outsider]

Weren't the pitches back then better for bowlers than they are now? Do you think that would have some effect?

Can you point out the relevance of that here?

[Crookbond]

Can you point out the relevance of that here?

If you are making a comparison between two objects leading to a definite conclusion; you need to have at most 1 variable property. All other properties should be static/fixed. In this case, I'm not sure how you plan to compare Madan Lal, Binny with Sreesanth, Ishant.

[The Outsider]

If you are making a comparison between two objects leading to a definite conclusion; you need to have at most 1 variable property. All other properties should be static/fixed. In this case' date=' I'm not sure how you plan to compare Madan Lal, Binny with Sreesanth, Ishant.[/quote'] I am comparing them because I've seen them and Sreesanth and Ishant have much more pace than Binny and Madan Lal which would increase their chance of inducing edges to the keeper by common cricketing logic. They were certainly not much more skillful than Sreesanth and Ishant to counter that effect.

[Brainfade]

No' date=' the most important point is the fact that Kirmani kept to pace bowlers for one third of total deliveries and Dhoni kept to them for half the total deliveries. Pace bowlers are twice as likely to have a wicket keeper dismissal than spinners.[/quote'] To summarize: Kirmani kept to fewer total deliveries. Of those, even fewer were likely to result in w/k dismissals. And still has approximately the same number of dismissals as Dhoni. Quite telling. As a test w/k, Kirmani was better. PS: I poked around a little for byes stats, but couldn't find any easily.

[Marut]

I don't think purely as a wicket keeper Dhoni is the best India has had, but I think Dhoni's work load is much higher than the keepers of the past. Dhoni plays cricket for 100+ days in an year and never misses matches - test cricket, ODI, T20s, IPL. With wicket keeping, when you keep doing it without sufficient rest in between, you get a form of RSI (repetitive stress injury) in the palms and fingers that makes it difficult (and painful) to catch the ball normally. Dhoni was in obvious discomfort in some of the series he played, especially in England where he his keeping was substandard. This was pointed out by leading wicket keepers and other former players at that time, and I am sure the details can be googled. Dhoni is a tough man, may be he can absorb the pain and stress without too many outward signs, but he is surely under performing due to the stress that comes from non stop commitment as wicket keeper and captain in every format of the game, two of the most difficult jobs on the field.

[The Outsider]

I suggest a read of http://www.espncricinfo.com/blogs/content/story/621923.html for a comprehensive analysis of all wkt keepers. Dhoni as an overall package is actually heads and shoulders above any other wicket keepers of the past.

Utter garbage as expected by Anantha Narayan. For starters doesn't take into account how bowling attacks vary from one keeper to another for the same country. The guy is a complete hack, which would have been fine if he was not posing around as some statistician. Don't waste your time on this idiot, he doesn't even publish comments which give a numerical and empirical debunking of his sophistry. EDIT: Just noticed his "ratings" rank Akmal as the fourth best keeper ever. If there was proof needed for his idiocy you'll struggle to find something better.

[Crookbond]

I am comparing them because I've seen them and Sreesanth and Ishant have much more pace than Binny and Madan Lal which would increase their chance of inducing edges to the keeper by common cricketing logic. They were certainly not much more skillful than Sreesanth and Ishant to counter that effect.

The factor that you left out was the pitches. I think Sreesanth and Ishant play on much more flat tracks than a Madan Lal, Binny would have. This makes the comparison complex as there are other factors to think about.

[Crookbond]

Utter garbage as expected by Anantha Narayan. For starters doesn't take into account how bowling attacks vary from one keeper to another for the same country. The guy is a complete hack, which would have been fine if he was not posing around as some statistician. Don't waste your time on this idiot, he doesn't even publish comments which give a numerical and empirical debunking of his sophistry. EDIT: Just noticed his "ratings" rank Akmal as the fourth best keeper ever. If there was proof needed for his idiocy you'll struggle to find something better.

Nit pick but it's 7th. Note that his "ratings" are based purely on statistics and include "runs scored" as well. It will be interesting to do his analysis without runs scored. I think in that case you may have the Healy's, Knott's. Talon's and Taylor's showing up in the list.

Gilchrist Boucher Dhoni Marsh Healy Dujon Kamran Akmal Richardson McCullum A Flower