Food bill: will it be passed today by Parliament?

[Crookbond]

Correct me if I'm wrong' date=' the SC's order in 2010 was about distributing unused foodgrain lying around to the poor ?[/quote'] I do not deny it. All I'm saying is that - you can't have it both ways : if one criticized the government for unable to distribute excess food grain; we should also give credit to the government for the FSB since it essentially tries to maximize the stock of food grains we have. Distribution of food grains to the poor sounds good but you will be the first one to understand that "whom to distribute" is a huge problem.

[Clarke]

I do not deny it. All I'm saying is that - you can't have it both ways : if one criticized the government for unable to distribute excess food grain; we should also give credit to the government for the FSB since it essentially tries to maximize the stock of food grains we have. Distribution of food grains to the poor sounds good but you will be the first one to understand that "whom to distribute" is a huge problem.

I hope you understand the difference between distributing excess grain a given year and mandating by law much larger distribution year after year. Our economist PM saw major issues with the former and gives a go to the latter ? Forget politics, how did the latter make more fiscal sense than the former ?

[Crookbond]

I hope you understand the difference between distributing excess grain a given year and mandating by law much larger distribution year after year. Our economist PM saw major issues with the former and gives a go to the latter ? Forget politics' date=' how did the latter make more fiscal sense than the former ?[/quote'] I do Clarke and I'm in favor of distribution of excess grain but I do not know how to do it. For example, I have 100 kg of excess food grain and 100 families where 22 of them are BPL and 67 of them are "poor". I don't know what formula to use to distribute the excess food grain. I hope you appreciate the complexity of the problem. You are essentially calling out PM's duplicity on two time frames - that is indeed fair. All that I try to say is that one would rather deeply inspect the problem and then give an appropriate level of criticism. Like I already posted a link, this indeed is politics - the ONLY benefit which I see from the FSB is for maternity reliefs. I hope this helps to drive down IMR where we are ranked 144th even lower than Burma and Bangladesh I guess.

[Crookbond]

Just to put things in context, jewellery traders were given a 60,000+ crore relief last year. I suspect there is a similar relief this year too. http://www.business-standard.com/article/economy-policy/duty-drawback-for-gold-jewellery-raised-72-113062200237_1.html

[The Outsider]

You are right. We have a budget surplus lying around. No economist has said so. But yes, 10 years on one can look back and decide provided one looks at the complete picture.

No,no you are right. We should only provide something as basic as food to our population only when we have a budget surplus, not when according to economists it is viable to do so.

That was the opposition's argument about govt figures on percentage of poor vs the coverage of the bill. It still is vote bank politics considering only "outsiders" like economists can challenge the bill and it becomes a white elephant for every politician except maybe Yashwant Sinha.

And?

By your analogy, I or most ICFers cannot question anything MMS or PC decide either since we mango people have no theoretical knowledge of economics and political science. Just shut up and do what Rajmata says, ok! Doctors and engineers will fall automatically from trees.

You can certainly question the policy, but please do back it up with some studies. Even Bhagwati, a critic of the bill, concedes on the point that a well fed population results in a stronger and more educated workforce.

Either bloody way, the salaried/honest ones are still running the treasury and will be forced the additional bill, not the corrupt ones. Why punish them for the ignorance of the poor ? You can't feed yourself but have 5 kids and its only fair that the tax payers pay for your food now every single day ? You see nothing wrong with this 800 million that needs a crutch ?

Has the tax gone up for the salaried and honest ones? No. At 30% maximum, we already have one of the lowest taxation rates across the world. Aap bataiye aap ko kaun sa punishment mil gaya for the food security bill? And lets not get into denigrating the poor and their population just for the sake of making a point.

[The Outsider]

Just to put things in context, jewellery traders were given a 60,000+ crore relief last year. I suspect there is a similar relief this year too. http://www.business-standard.com/article/economy-policy/duty-drawback-for-gold-jewellery-raised-72-113062200237_1.html

Nothing wrong with that and things like being able to import insane amounts of gold at 2% excise duty, but talk about giving food to the poor and we become USSR incarnate.

[Clarke]

No,no you are right. We should only provide something as basic as food to our population only when we have a budget surplus, not when according to economists it is viable to do so. And? You can certainly question the policy, but please do back it up with some studies. Even Bhagwati, a critic of the bill, concedes on the point that a well fed population results in a stronger and more educated workforce.

Our economist PM saab had a less generous point of view about distributing excess grain in somewhat better times. Not spending budget surplus on additional subsidies but distributing excess grain rotting around. This was while growth and revenues were on the rebound. Here we are in election year and all this madness is now making economic sense.

Has the tax gone up for the salaried and honest ones? No. At 30% maximum, we already have one of the lowest taxation rates across the world. Aap bataiye aap ko kaun sa punishment mil gaya for the food security bill?

Power, roads, public transport, water supply, waste management etc all can go to hell. The taxpaying population is one of the lowest too but they must have to endure all that so that the votebank can have free food for 3 more kids. Aap bataiye aapka kya jaata hai, America mein rehte ho aur hame lecture dete ho kya problem hai humko ?

And lets not get into denigrating the poor and their population just for the sake of making a point.

Cheap political talk and refuting facts. The vote bank can continue to multiply and the middle class must pay for them.

Nothing wrong with that and things like being able to import insane amounts of gold at 2% excise duty' date=' but talk about giving food to the poor and we become USSR incarnate.[/quote'] Of course the duty should be higher but you could learn the difference between paying tax and expecting a free meal. You talk of economists and can't figure who's a contributor to the treasury and who's getting a handout ? There's congressi talk and now there's maoist philosophy being preached here.

[The Outsider]

Our economist PM saab had a less generous point of view about distributing excess grain in somewhat better times. Not spending budget surplus on additional subsidies but distributing excess grain rotting around. This was while growth and revenues were on the rebound. Here we are in election year and all this madness is now making economic sense.

Oh mere yaar,even Bhagwaiti - a renowned economist and critic of the bill concedes that a population with nothing to worry about feeding itself, makes a stronger future workforce. His critique is about distribution and not principle.

Power, roads, public transport, water supply, waste management etc all can go to hell. The taxpaying population is one of the lowest too but they must have to endure all that so that the votebank can have free food for 3 more kids. Aap bataiye aapka kya jaata hai, America mein rehte ho aur hame lecture dete ho kya problem hai humko ?

So increase the tax paying population. Maine gotiyaan pakad rakhi hain us poppulation ki? The progress of the country cannot be held sabotaged to people who do not pay their fair share of taxes.

Cheap political talk and refuting facts. The vote bank can continue to multiply and the middle class must pay for them.

Irrelevant rhetoric - ignored.

Of course the duty should be higher but you could learn the difference between paying tax and expecting a free meal. You talk of economists and can't figure who's a contributor to the treasury and who's getting a handout ? There's congressi talk and now there's maoist philosophy being preached here.

Amartya Sen can't do basic arithmetic? You are embarrassing yourself at this point.

[Clarke]

Oh mere yaar,even Bhagwaiti - a renowned economist and critic of the bill concedes that a population with nothing to worry about feeding itself, makes a stronger future workforce. His critique is about distribution and not principle.

Dude, stop jumping around. Explain what changed between MMS' stance in 2010 and what just passed.

So increase the tax paying population. Maine gotiyaan pakad rakhi hain us poppulation ki? The progress of the country cannot be held sabotaged to people who do not pay their fair share of taxes.

Govt ke haath mein sab hai, tax increases, tax base increases and quite some control on economic growth or even population growth. Nahi maine gotiyan baand rakhi hain govt ki. But all they choose among the above is throwing foodgrains. Pardon me when I smell rotten vote bank politics over sound economic intentions.

Irrelevant rhetoric - ignored.

Of course, very convenient.

Amartya Sen can't do basic arithmetic? You are embarrassing yourself at this point.

Its YOU who's pretending to not add things up. According to you low taxes are net negative and free foodgrains are not.

[The Outsider]

Dude, stop jumping around. Explain what changed between MMS' stance in 2010 and what just passed.

Why should I explain Manmohan Singh's statements? The topic of discussion is whether the food security bill is affordable and it's long term impact on the Indian workforce. I am perfectly willing to discuss those aspects.

Govt ke haath mein sab hai, tax increases, tax base increases and quite some control on economic growth or even population growth. Nahi maine gotiyan baand rakhi hain govt ki. But all they choose among the above is throwing foodgrains. Pardon me when I smell rotten vote bank politics over sound economic intentions.

Haan sab government ke haath mein hai - the citizens have no responsibility. Can you give me the amount of money that will be required for the government to implement taxation of Kiraana stores? Where will that money come from?

Of course, very convenient.

Rephrase it in a more coherent argument and I will address the point.

Its YOU who's pretending to not add things up. According to you low taxes are net negative and free foodgrains are not.

Is that what you understood? Subsidized food can be delivered if the current taxation is made better only moderately, is what I said. And why didn't I see such lambi lambi rants from you about the insane import duty for Gold as I am seeing about food?

[Clarke]

Why should I explain Manmohan Singh's statements? The topic of discussion is whether the food security bill is affordable and it's long term impact on the Indian workforce. I am perfectly willing to discuss those aspects.

Well you've have happy to go about all along saying economists including our PM know what's best. Well here's a completely different view from the economist PM on a much smaller one time act of generosity from 2010. Either say the PM was lying/clueless then or accept this is vote bank nonsense. I am picking the latter.

Haan sab government ke haath mein hai - the citizens have no responsibility.

Citizens ko punish bhi kar sakte ho, tax bhi. Sab powers hain aapke paas. Not giving a free ride to tax evaders, but you might as well shut down the audit section of the IT department if your idea of discussing food bill legislation revolves around people taking responsibility. Wo 800 million ko bhi bol dena, thoda responsible ho jaen aur apna khana nahi kama sakte to 5 santaan na paalen.

Rephrase it in a more coherent argument and I will address the point.

Its essentially the same point about middle class being ignored to the core to win votes.

Is that what you understood? Subsidized food can be delivered if the current taxation is made better only moderately, is what I said. And why didn't I see such lambi lambi rants from you about the insane import duty for Gold as I am seeing about food?

The gold issue is about CAD more than anything else. A low tax isn't a bloody handout from the govt that deserves outrage as you're preaching, it still contributes to it unlike this dole. Are you so naive to not see the difference, one adding to the treasury (whether less or more) and the other sucking from it ?

[The Outsider]

Well you've have happy to go about all along saying economists including our PM know what's best. Well here's a completely different view from the economist PM on a much smaller one time act of generosity from 2010. Either say the PM was lying/clueless then or accept this is vote bank nonsense. I am picking the latter.

Again, I don't see why I should have to justify the PM's comments then or now. I am perfectly willing to discuss the bill, which I am doing.

Citizens ko punish bhi kar sakte ho, tax bhi. Sab powers hain aapke paas. Not giving a free ride to tax evaders, but you might as well shut down the audit section of the IT department if your idea of discussing food bill legislation revolves around people taking responsibility. Wo 800 million ko bhi bol dena, thoda responsible ho jaen aur apna khana nahi kama sakte to 5 santaan na paalen.

Kaise punish karoge? Resources kahan se laaoge itna mass scale tax ki dhaandhli ko rokne ke liye?

Its essentially the same point about middle class being ignored to the core to win votes.

Middle class is ignoring itself by not honestly paying taxes. 0 fecks given to them till they do so.

The gold issue is about CAD more than anything else. A low tax isn't a bloody handout from the govt that deserves outrage as you're preaching, it still contributes to it unlike this dole. Are you so naive to not see the difference, one adding to the treasury (whether less or more) and the other sucking from it ?

Dude, when the import duty on most things is in the 20-40% range you don't find having a 2% import duty on Gold ridiculous and appeasement of the middle and upper class? And no, basic economics will tell you that such a ridiculously low import duty on products which the country does not produce enough to cater the demand means a huge currency outflow and devaluation of the currency.

[randomGuy]

These are Global Hunger index rankings. Cambodia, Laos, Pakistan, Nepal, Nigar, Uganda, Nigeria, Ghana etc etc - many countries fare better than us here despite our GDP(ppp) per capita being better than all of them.

[randomGuy]

GHI and Income in India and Elsewhere

In India, 43.5 percent of children under five are underweight (WHO 2012, based on the 2005–06 National Family Health Survey [iIPS and Macro International 2007]): this rate accounts for almost two-thirds of the country’s alarmingly high GHI score. According to the latest data on child undernutrition, from 2005–10, India ranked second to last on child underweight out of 129 countries—below Ethiopia, Niger, Nepal, and Bangladesh. Only Timor-Leste had a higher rate of underweight children. : : It must be emphasized that child undernutrition is not simply the outcome of a lack of food in the household. There are many other potential causes, such as lack of essential vitamins and minerals in the diet, improper caring and feeding practices, or frequent infections, which often result from inadequate health services or unsanitary environments. Women’s low status in India and *other parts of South Asia contributes to children’s poor nutritional outcomes in the region because children’s development and mothers’ well-being are closely linked: women’s poor nutritional status, low education, and low social status undermine their ability to give birth to well-nourished babies and to adequately feed and care for their children (von Grebmer et al. 2010). According to surveys during 2000–06, 36 percent of Indian women of childbearing age were underweight, compared with only 16 percent in 23 Sub-Saharan African countries

[saneindian]

Remember having a debate on the DBT launch in this thread. Some numbers being reported today http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/business/india-business/Cash-transfer-reaches-just-10-of-test-population/articleshow/22446189.cms Key points: - But eight months down the line, it is discovering that the grand plan has run into bureaucratic walls and the beneficiaries are not ready to be part of the cash transfer architecture. - There are at least four schemes where no cash transfers had taken place till early August, the latest period for which data is available. In another four, direct transfers ranged between Rs 2 lakh and Rs 8 lakh. - A little over half of the population identified for 25 schemes in 121 districts, where pilots are being run, had bank accounts. While a quarter had both bank accounts and Aadhaar, there were less than 10% who had them linked. So, till July, effectively less than 10% of the population in the test cases had actually experienced the benefits of direct transfer. - In case of cooking gas, the petroleum ministry has said that in the 20 districts where a pilot project is underway, 16.6 lakh of the 72.3 lakh consumers - which is around 23% of the target group - are receiving subsidy via DBT. - Of the 28 schemes identified, two (Dhanalakshmi and National Scheme for Incentive For the Girl Child for Secondary Education) are proposed to be dropped, while another nine may be handed over to the states, several of whom are unwilling to share the list of beneficiaries. Numbers on Aadhar roll out: - In 242 of the 650 districts, penetration varies between zero and 10% and the Unique Identification Authority of India has conceded that it will take up to 27 months to issue Aadhaar. - Only 160 districts have Aadhaar coverage of over 50%. - The Registrar General of India has been asked to expedite biometric data collection in states such as Uttar Pradesh, Bihar, Chattisgarh, West Bengal, Odisha, Jammu & Kashmir and the North East.

[randomGuy]

Remember having a debate on the DBT launch in this thread. Some numbers being reported today

The debate was not on giving cooking gas subsidy by bank account transfer, I am for abolishing MNREGA, ALL food and fuel subsidy and implementing MONTHLY cash benefits for the poor where they stand in queue, validate themselves whether they are eligible and receive their cash. UIDAI is responsible for issuing the aadhar. These other useless schemes are being run by the Gov.

Only 160 districts have Aadhaar coverage of over 50%.

With 1/3rd population being covered so far (which is on track as per the stated goals) , were you expecting more than 160 districts having more than 50% coverage out of the total 650?

[Desi Cartman]

Chalo baba declares in Rajasthan that one needs to work only 100 days, get free food and medicines :yay:

[randomGuy]

Chalo baba declares in Rajasthan that one needs to work only 100 days' date=' get free food and medicines :yay:[/quote'] Between this and the assertion that any country can not possibly afford to procure food grains from its farmers and sell it on subsidized rates to 2/3rd (800 million) of its population because only 'x' percentage pay income tax, I can't decide which is more wrong tbh.

[Desi Cartman]

Between this and the assertion that any country can not possibly afford to procure food grains from its farmers and sell it on subsidized rates to 2/3rd (800 million) of its population because only 'x' percentage pay income tax' date=' I can't decide which is more wrong tbh.[/quote'] It depends on the % of people getting benefits, here we are talking about 1 tax payer paying for 3 people. Also I find this hilarious and sad at the same time ""Poori roti khayenge, 100 din kaam karenge, dawaiee lenge aur Congress ko jitayenge" this are Baba's words. We are telling janta that they get food and medical for the year and they only need to work for 100 days a year. I wonder how many FSD supporter would like the next PM candidate to go out and tell this to people.

[randomGuy]

You are quite wrong, just need some copy paste from earlier posts to show you how - 1. Each n every indian pays taxes on goods and services. Plus there is corporate tax. Besides the 247639.00 crores of income tax earnings, there's also: 419520.00 crores coming as Corporation Tax. 187308.00 crores as Customs. 197553.95 crores as Union Excise Duties. 180141.00 crores as service tax. Link People do not disclose their correct incomes so as to not pay income tax. However those same people who do not pay income taxes properly do pay other direct and indirect taxes (much because they aren't able to find any workaround to avoid those taxes ) 2. watch [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mdJRZeilT8]this[/ame] video from ravishingRavi from 15min20 sec, the coverage without the food security bill is 800million plus already in different gov schemes.