Ian Botham or Imran Khan in peak period?

[alexander]

There is hardly anything to pick and choose between Botham and Kapil the batsman, they were practically clones of each other. Botham was way better at negotiating swing than Kapil, Kapil was way better against spin and a bit better at handling steep bounce ( mostly because Kapil was a far better puller and hooker than Botham, while Botham was more assured outside his offstump). Both came with all the shots in the book. Kapil had a bit less support while bowling and India were prone to more collapses in batting than England, which meant Kapil came out to bat more tired than Botham more often than not. Benaud, Bird, etc. pick Imran because Imran was a monster at county level and he was the only player in Pakistan lineup that did well against West Indies while Pakistan were the 2nd best team after West Indies.

:haha: Yes, his international returns are rubbish. :giggle: Everyone rates Imran Khan. Some of you guys are being simple self-aggrandizers.

[Muloghonto]

:haha: Yes, his international returns are rubbish. :giggle: Everyone rates Imran Khan. Some of you guys are being simple self-aggrandizers.

Everyone rates Imran with the bottlecap. With the bottlecap, he was an ATG bowler. Without the bottlecap, he was a very fine bowler. As i said, people rate Imran because Kapil & Botham fell away too much near the end of their careers while Imran zealously maintained his averages- he rarely ever bowled except for with the new ball and the late 80s are where Imran bowls 12 overs for 1 wicket & 25 runs even when every other Paki bowler bowls 35-40 overs and concedes 400+ runs! Hadlee never was a true allrounder, he was an exceptional bowler who could biff some runs well. Oh another thing that goes for Imran's reputation is that he is the only allrounder of the four to figure in WSC and WSC did have a huge impetus in people's reputation for the 70s-mid 80s generation. I just dont consider Imran a good enough batsman at his peak, because at his peak Imran wasnt rolling off centuries, he was batting for 30-40 runs and staying not out. Thats handy for a top order batsman but definitely not good enough to be in the side purely on the basis of his batting.

[alexander]

History and those who know cricket have made their judgements on those from that era. Imran Khan always struck me as an arrogant prat, but by God he was a superb cricketer. It's called being honest and fair.

[vvvslaxman]

History and those who know cricket have made their judgements on those from that era. Imran Khan always struck me as an arrogant prat' date=' but by God he was a superb cricketer. It's called being honest and fair.[/quote'] Nope. He and Sarfraz invented the bottle cap technique to alter the conditions of the ball to gain advantage. http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/cricket-imran-admits-cheating-glenn-moore-on-the-book-throwing-light-on-a-touchy-subject-1434755.html

[panther]

Ball tampering is an art look how mediocre steyn looks on a flat pitch unless someone tampers with the ball, Indian bowlers can't even bowl straight with a tampered ball or get any decent movement so you can understand the jealousy.

[alexander]

I have read all his cricketing books. He admits to using it in a game for Sussex as an experiment with Le Roux. No mention of using it in tests, and crucially, none of his opposition cited a damaged ball to the umpires. Imran Khan played in the media age - it would have been captured somewhere. I get that Indians dont like to praise Pakistani players and vice-versa, but denying a legend his status is silly.

[vvvslaxman]

I have read all his cricketing books. He admits to using it in a game for Sussex as an experiment with Le Roux. No mention of using it in tests, and crucially, none of his opposition cited a damaged ball to the umpires. Imran Khan played in the media age - it would have been captured somewhere. I get that Indians dont like to praise Pakistani players and vice-versa, but denying a legend his status is silly.

No you have not read enough. 1982/83 series was one of the worst ball tampering tour you can think of.

[Muloghonto]

Ball tampering is an art look how mediocre steyn looks on a flat pitch unless someone tampers with the ball' date=' Indian bowlers can't even bowl straight with a tampered ball or get any decent movement so you can understand the jealousy.[/quote'] We play within the rules, India has always been a society thats obsessed with rules while Pakis have always been a society of no rules outside of religion. Which is why Pakis went to utter crap after neutral umpires were brought in.

[alexander]

So why didnt official do anything? Imran played most of his cricket here. If he cheated, we more then any others would have seen it. This is merely bitterness.

[vvvslaxman]

We play within the rules' date=' India has always been a society thats obsessed with rules while Pakis have always been a society of no rules outside of religion. Which is why Pakis went to utter crap after neutral umpires were brought in.[/quote'] They have array of chuckers in their present side. Ajmal, Afridi (faster ball), Junaid Khan, Sohaib Malik

[vvvslaxman]

So why didnt official do anything? Imran played most of his cricket here. If he cheated, we more then any others would have seen it. This is merely bitterness.

Then you have not heard enough of Pak bowlers.. how they can do underhand tricks Infact waqar pleaded cricket community to legalize ball tampering.

[Muloghonto]

I have read all his cricketing books. He admits to using it in a game for Sussex as an experiment with Le Roux. No mention of using it in tests, and crucially, none of his opposition cited a damaged ball to the umpires. Imran Khan played in the media age - it would have been captured somewhere. I get that Indians dont like to praise Pakistani players and vice-versa, but denying a legend his status is silly.

There was no 'media age' in cricket till the late 80s. It was only after the Reliance world cup in 1987 when multiple camera angles were available in cricket. And a ball tamperer who admits to ball tampering in FC cricket is more than likely to tamper at the top level. FYI, Desmond Haynes cited the ball to the umpires several times in the 80s with zero result. This is not about Indians disliking Paki legends, this is about calling a spade a bloody spade. I still consider Akram to be the most complete fast bowler to've bowled in cricket & Saqlain in the first half of his career was the deadliest spinner I've ever seen. But Imran Khan was a cheat and an average batsman whos figures are boosted by not outs.

[Muloghonto]

So why didnt official do anything? Imran played most of his cricket here. If he cheated, we more then any others would have seen it. This is merely bitterness.

because its easy to cheat and get away with it when there are only 2 camera-men on the ground and umpires have not caught on to the ball tampering threat to cricket so ball inspections were much rarer. Ironically the series where England created the most hulabaloo to ball tampering- where Wasim & Waqar destroyed you guys- it was a clean series IMO but the series in the early-mid 80s was the height of Paki ball tampering.

[panther]

We play within the rules' date=' India has always been a society thats obsessed with rules while Pakis have always been a society of no rules outside of religion. Which is why Pakis went to utter crap after neutral umpires were brought in.[/quote'] No India does not BCCI bends the rules from behind the curtain especially in the last decade and now, no wonder the rise of Bcci power has seen the rise in ftbs records from India and improvement away from home in the last decade.

[vvvslaxman]

http://www.indianexpress.com/storyOld.php?storyId=41525 read this article

[vvvslaxman]

No India does not BCCI bends the rules from behind the curtain especially in the last decade and now' date=' no wonder the rise of Bcci power has seen the rise in ftbs records from India and improvement away from home in the last decade.[/quote'] Sour grapes sour grapes :cantstop:

[alexander]

Our media used to make hay with this. Even then the educated set understood and backed Imran Khan's position - and sans proof the courts threw any case out. The world has watched them play - Australia, WI, Lanka, England, NZL - why then do only you have issue with it? Wasim, Waqar, Imran and Shoaib were great fast bowlers. 1-3, ATG, Akhtar very good. No English umpire ever pulled Khan up on these charges. No Aussie umpire, or WI umpire - or dare I say it, Indian umpire either. The notion that Imran Khan wasnt a great fast bowler will be laughed at from London to Sydney to Barbados to Wellington. And I dont even like the guy. He's a pompous twit.

[Muloghonto]

No India does not BCCI bends the rules from behind the curtain especially in the last decade and now' date=' no wonder the rise of Bcci power has seen the rise in ftbs records from India and improvement away from home in the last decade.[/quote'] That is nothing more than speculation. Pakis have been banned more and found to've broken the rules in cricket more than any other side. Your BCCI allegations are just speculative nonsense without any evidence.

[vvvslaxman]

In multinational tournament cheating is very tough. One reason they struggled against INdia in multinatinoal tournament.

[panther]

In multinational tournament cheating is very tough. One reason they struggled against INdia in multinatinoal tournament.

There is no struggling, Bcci pays handsome money for those wins against pak in multinational tournaments how do you think the pcb is still financially alive?