Bhuvneshwar Kumar is nothing special

[Lord]

Even I do not see him doing great in India. Regarding Shami' date=' he was never a swing bowler. He is more a seam bowler. Issue has been consistency. He is not able to around off stump in the corridor consistently. Either too wide or too leg side.[/quote'] We don't even need to play him in India.We only play 2 pacers at best there.so Shami/Ishant/Umesh can suffice.However hes proven to be a good bowler in these conditions atleast. Wasim was saying Shami wasn't tilting his wrists while bowling and hence slipping down leg side.The seam is straight instead of pointing towards slip or leg slip :hmmm:

[Chandan]

Even I do not see him doing great in India. Regarding Shami' date=' he was never a swing bowler. He is more a seam bowler. Issue has been consistency. He is not able to around off stump in the corridor consistently. Either too wide or too leg side.[/quote'] Swing or seam, Shami has got his line wrong, hasn't been aggressive, hasn't thought out any plans to bowl and has been very wayward. Ishant is not a swing bowler either. Still could get success even at Trent Bridge in one spell, had got success at Lords even in 2011. Think Shami is not 100% fit. That is the only reason for his intensity to be not up!

[rkt.india]

Wasim was saying Shami wasn't tilting his wrists while bowling and hence slipping down leg side.The seam is straight instead of pointing towards slip or leg slip :hmmm:

Shami has always bowled like that. He is trying to bowl with tilted seam now with which he beaten Cook several times in first innings. Ball swung away from Cook which was an inswinger for right handers. Shami needs to improve his runup. Until he does that, he will never be consistent. Johnson had the same problem, improved it after he was dropped now look at where he is. he has gain ed pace and is far more consistent.

[rkt.india]

Swing or seam' date=' Shami[b'] has got his line wrong, hasn't been aggressive, hasn't thought out any plans to bowl and has been very wayward. Ishant is not a swing bowler either. Still could get success even at Trent Bridge in one spell, had got success at Lords even in 2011. Think Shami is not 100% fit. That is the only reason for his intensity to be not up!

This is what he lacked the most. Regarding Ishant, he gets bounce which works in his favor. I had already said that Shami to be dropped from 3rd test after his poor performance in 2 matches.

[express bowling]

No one gets quicker after pitching. It is how less pace one loses after pitching. A slower bowler bowling at 125 will still be slower at batsman than a bowler bowling at 140K. Even if a 140K pacer loses 20 K after pitching' date=' he will be hitting bat at 120. A 125K bowler losing only 10K then he will hit bat at 115. This is a serious misconception. Bowling action and movement decides how a batsman will pick a bowler. He his a unique bowling action, sometimes batsmen do not pick him that well and then movement plays its role too and that is what makes the difference movement in the air and off the pitch.[/quote'] Obviously. The ball loses pace after release always. Simple physics. But , with some pacers, the decrease in pace is less than others. Due to various factors including seam position at the time of release, travelling and hitting the pitch as well as amount of underspin on the ball. Those who lose less pace after pitching than expected on the basis of his release speed and pitch type are the deceptively quick bowlers and are very difficult to play. Kumble was one such bowler. Can BK be one consistently ?

[rkt.india]

Obviously. The ball loses pace after release always. Simple physics. But , with some pacers, the decrease in pace is less than others. Due to various factors including seam position at the time of release, travelling and hitting the pitch as well as amount of underspin on the ball. Those who lose less pace after pitching than expected on the basis of his release speed and pitch type are the deceptively quick bowlers and are very difficult to play. Kumble was one such bowler. Can BK be one consistently ?

You hit the right length around off stump, you will always be difficult to play. BK hits that length more often than others, that is why he is difficult to play in these conditions, not because of pace.

[Straight Drive]

Thats what I mean.Everyone can't perform in every series.Bhuvi is doing well here but if he struggles in India' date=guns will be out writing him off whereas for Shami its a temporary phase

That is the key which fans should understand. All 6 batsmen cannot come good together in msot matches. Same with bowlers. exceptions are there but i am talking more foten than not everyone does not clicks in same match. However like our batsmen Sehwag,Sachin,Gauti,Rahul,VVS etc had good form which they carried for 12 months or 24 months continuously and then lost it for odd series.Then again striked good form for an year and played reasonably well when in average form. Our bowlers should stretch this good form like batters for most part of year or two.Then maybe few bad series but the bowlers have to do well in more matches than not during the good form of their career. Else they will end up with lower statistics when the bad form strikes them. For example, Ishant got in good form in NZL and carried it to Engand. Hope he odes well in 8 out of 10 series as he is in good form. Same with other bowlers.

[express bowling]

You hit the right length around off stump' date=' you will always be difficult to play. BK hits that length more often than others, that is why he is difficult to play in these conditions, not because of pace.[/quote'] In England , even if the pitch is flat, the ball swings from time to time, especially when there is cloud cover, which is an on and off phenomenon. Plus, as Akram was explaining, the flat pitches in England are never flat like roads like they are in the subcontinent. Medium paced swing bowlers , who have control, always succeed in England. Amarnath, Binny, Madanlal, Chetan, Prabhakar, PK etc. have all succeeded here. The best place for a medium paced swing bowler to succeed are England, NZ, SAF and Zim. Provided they are otherwise bowling well. Both Philander and Steyn were taking wickets in SAF but in Lanka only Steyn succeeded. Even Morkel took wickets. Regarding zip of the pitch .... BK was getting it yesterday . I hope he gets it mote often. It always helps.

[Straight Drive]

In England , even if the pitch is flat, the ball swings from time to time, especially when there is cloud cover, which is an on and off phenomenon. Plus, as Akram was explaining, the flat pitches in England are never flat like roads like they are in the subcontinent. Medium paced swing bowlers , who have control, always succeed in England. Amarnath, Binny, Madanlal, Chetan, Prabhakar, PK etc. have all succeeded here. The best place for a medium paced swing bowler to succeed are England, NZ, SAF and Zim. Provided they are otherwise bowling well. Both Philander and Steyn were taking wickets in SAF but in Lanka only Steyn succeeded. Even Morkel took wickets. Regarding zip of the pitch .... BK was getting it yesterday . I hope he gets it mote often. It always helps.

I think Peter Trego took over 50 wickets in last few LVCC's. Even some Indian medium pacers bowl more faster than him. There are many others there who don't have pace, but they end up with 5 fers when they bowl with control and pitch it in right lien and length.

[rkt.india]

Y But having said that he needs to definitely work on his stamina because his pace is down on this series and he can't afford to bowl at low pace without accuracy.

Shami bowled decent pace in this game, averaging 85 mph, but lacked any consistency to build pressure. His lines have been too leg side or straight.

[express bowling]

I think Peter Trego took over 50 wickets in last few LVCC's. Even some Indian medium pacers bowl more faster than him. There are many others there who don't have pace' date=' but they end up with 5 fers when they bowl with control and pitch it in right lien and length.[/quote'] In one or two seasons, when a bowler's form is good, it happens. But rarely over a long period. I think all test pacers with 200 wickets or more and average of 26 or less, have been either fast OR tall and get steep bounce. There must be a reason for that.

[gakgupta]

Shami bowled decent pace in this game' date=' averaging 85 mph, but lacked any consistency to build pressure. His lines have been too leg side or straight.[/quote'] He has obvious talent and should be persisted with ...... We dont have a culture of developing pace bowlers as we are too impatient

[Straight Drive]

In one or two seasons, when a bowler's form is good, it happens. But rarely over a long period. I think all test pacers with 200 wickets or more and average of 26 or less, have been either fast OR tall and get steep bounce. There must be a reason for that.

The most common quality in them was being very good bowlers due to combination of possessing various abilities. Just height takes them nowhere. It's good though if pacers have height because then they have better chance of extracting bounce to add to their sound basics.

[rkt.india]

He has obvious talent and should be persisted with ...... We dont have a culture of developing pace bowlers as we are too impatient

Yes, need to persist but does not mean keep playing when he is bowling poorly and has already played 3 tests here.

[express bowling]

The most common quality in them was being very good bowlers due to combination of possessing various abilities. Just height takes them nowhere. It's good though if pacers have height because then they have better chance of extracting bounce to add to their sound basics.

That a bowler has to be a very good one , if he has a test average of 26 or less, is a no-brainer. He would have good control, the ability to either swing or seam the ball, ability to spot a batsman's weakness and bowl to a plan, etc. etc. Additionally, having some pace and/or bounce make them more all-condition bowlers and also keep them lethal over a longer period of time, even after s couple of seasons. Just pace/ bounce never made anyone a good bowler and the same applies to just line and length bowling. It is about effectively combining various tools.

[express bowling]

Bhuvi's batting is so impressive.Showing a lot of character.

[Lord]

Bhuvi's batting is so impressive.Showing a lot of character.

jinxed him :facepalm:

[express bowling]

Now , he gets an unplayable delivery.

[ThePhenomenal1]

Yes exactly. Shami has constantly struggled with his consistency of lines/lengths on this tour and in fairness to him there has been three very different pitches on display so far. That's doesn't mean we drop him completely or because he'll suck from now on. But having said that he needs to definitely work on his stamina because his pace is down on this series and he can't afford to bowl at low pace without accuracy. It's very important that we continue to develop a squad of bowlers that suit different conditions because outside of Ishant we don't have any bowler that has any real kind of experience.

Mainly we need to rotate and we do that badly. At home/SC, hit the deck will be better so you play bowlers like pankaj, shami, umesh, ishant and occassionaly BK. For overseas, you need these guys too but for england and new zealand, maybe a pandey also. Get guys like bumrah in the mix, and bring in the new crop after a-tours. More combos means more competition and better performance IMO.

[Straight Drive]

6 fer in second test. Picked half of England wickets in this 3rd tests so far (4 out of 8) but still he's termed useless? Anyone considering him as useful ?