Fontaine Posted July 4, 2014 Posted July 4, 2014 Wrong As I have said before, you are looking at the symptoms and not the disease Some of the same bowlers you mentioned have been identified as very skilled by outstanding past bowling legends Yet what happens? Did you even seen the way Dhoni makes his fast bowler bowl? Did you even see the way BK has been made to be turned from a wicket taking bowler to a defensive one? Yadav being used in 2 overs spells? BK bowls much better in IPL under a different captain and so does Yadav and others. This "No good bowler" has been the pathetic excuse Dhoni has been hiding behind for years now. But there is a clear reason why promising young bowlers fall away really fast under Dhoni What kind of bowlers does he encourage over time? Bowlers like Mohit Sharma and Vinay Kumar, CSK team is full of such bowlers and zero fast bowlers and that is not a coincidence. And if Yadav tries to ball all out he is given random spells and dropped as soon as possible. Ishant gets a 100 games despite failing.Which bowler will succeed in the international arena with zero help? You cannot say that it is a coincidence that CSK team has exactly the same bowling problems the Indian team has when all the best fast bowlers in the world were available for selection. But keep on just seeing the symptoms and ignore the rotten core THAT is your argument? That Dhoni makes the bowlers bad? :hysterical:
Fontaine Posted July 4, 2014 Posted July 4, 2014 AUS simply weren't good enough when they faced us. And there were management issues. With india, they have the bowlers. Are you telling me that a group of shami, bhuvi, pandey, pankaj and aaron cannot take 20 wickets? Once they adapt to conditions and attack, they are a potent attack. Why dont you face it that dhoni was never a good overseas captain. You need to be brave, lead from the front, be aggressive, mix use of bowlers, go for wickets. Dhoni invites what he fears and doesn't want: a loss. He gets scared that opposition will add more runs - sets defensive field - they add more runs. Notice how in SA 2013 tour, we bowled out the tail fairly quickly when we continued to attack. We need new thinking altogether. A limited test batsman like dhoni cant understand test cricket. Give him his dust bowls and chennai spinners and let him play ranji. Leave India alone Yes, I'm not saying Dhoni is not defensive, at times and especially abroad he can be. I'm just questioning the assertion that he's a bad captain when the team loses. It's a simpleton's argument.
Vilander Posted July 4, 2014 Posted July 4, 2014 Wrong As I have said before, you are looking at the symptoms and not the disease Some of the same bowlers you mentioned have been identified as very skilled by outstanding past bowling legends Yet what happens? Did you even seen the way Dhoni makes his fast bowler bowl? Did you even see the way BK has been made to be turned from a wicket taking bowler to a defensive one? Yadav being used in 2 overs spells? BK bowls much better in IPL under a different captain and so does Yadav and others. This "No good bowler" has been the pathetic excuse Dhoni has been hiding behind for years now. But there is a clear reason why promising young bowlers fall away really fast under Dhoni What kind of bowlers does he encourage over time? Bowlers like Mohit Sharma and Vinay Kumar, CSK team is full of such bowlers and zero fast bowlers and that is not a coincidence. And if Yadav tries to ball all out he is given random spells and dropped as soon as possible. Ishant gets a 100 games despite failing.Which bowler will succeed in the international arena with zero help? You cannot say that it is a coincidence that CSK team has exactly the same bowling problems the Indian team has when all the best fast bowlers in the world were available for selection. But keep on just seeing the symptoms and ignore the rotten core This.
CSK Fan Posted July 4, 2014 Posted July 4, 2014 THAT is your argument? That Dhoni makes the bowlers bad? :hysterical: That is your argument, replying to specific points I made with a smiley face? Why not reply to the points I made about attacking bowlers being used defensively, hence leaving them completely confused Do try to remember, that these bowlers are completely green. When a Kohli or a Pujara came into the team, we had the likes of Sachin, Dravid, Laxman to guide them each step with a captain who understands batting. However, these bowlers are completely directionless, and it is very clear they get confused in international matches. So when a captain can easily make or break them. Have you seen even one match with Umesh in the team and how the captain uses him as opposed to a Mohit Sharma? You have also not read anything in my post, it is obvious, I would like to know why the CSK attack is a replica of the India attack, same kind of bowlers, with the fast bowlers bowling defensively and the spinners as an attacking option? What was the fast bowlers performance in UAE?
CSK Fan Posted July 4, 2014 Posted July 4, 2014 Yes, I'm not saying Dhoni is not defensive, at times and especially abroad he can be. I'm just questioning the assertion that he's a bad captain when the team loses. It's a simpleton's argument. A simpleton's argument is believing any captain should stay after 12-0 defeat and yet can be absolved of all blame because bowling sucks A simpleton's argument is believing that bowlers after bowlers who were identified as skilled by best in the business, can fall away in international cricket, can become defensive and bowl exact same way because they all suck A simpleton's argument is that with all the money we have, with coaches and selectors in place, with the captain having been at the helm long enough to identify a problem and form a plan which department he wants to strengthen, still somehow fails to produce any talent A simpleton's argument is that the same captain who cries about lack of fast bowling in the media, fails to select the most exciting fast bowling talent we have, by co-incidence and not incompetence. A simpleton's argument is also characterized by one line replies and ad homenium attacks on posts instead of replying to the points raised in the posts
Fontaine Posted July 4, 2014 Posted July 4, 2014 A simpleton's argument is believing any captain should stay after 12-0 defeat and yet can be absolved of all blame because bowling sucks A simpleton's argument is believing that bowlers after bowlers who were identified as skilled by best in the business, can fall away in international cricket, can become defensive and bowl exact same way because they all suck A simpleton's argument is that with all the money we have, with coaches and selectors in place, with the captain having been at the helm long enough to identify a problem and form a plan which department he wants to strengthen, still somehow fails to produce any talent A simpleton's argument is that the same captain who cries about lack of fast bowling in the media, fails to select the most exciting fast bowling talent we have, by co-incidence and not incompetence. A simpleton's argument is also characterized by one line replies and ad homenium attacks on posts instead of replying to the points raised in the posts So you want to get rid of Dhoni because he loses overseas. Fine. I'm not defending the poor record but if winning abroad is the criteria then almost every Indian captain is a failure. A lot of what you're discussing here are your opinions and educated guesses about what decisions and how Dhoni is making about his "young" bowlers when it doesn't work out. Again, fine, your opinion. Same thing with developing/managing bowling talent. You seem to think Dhoni is primarily responsible. I don't know what to tell you if you really believe that. By that argument, Captains like Ganguly were responsible for Munaf/Nehra/Pathan not developing either right? But you can pretty much make the same arguments for ANY captain that loses. Judgement based on hindsight without really knowing who makes what decisions and how. When it works out great and the team wins, the captain gets too much credit. When it doesn't and the team loses, well lets all blame the captain. Like it or not, over the course of 5 days in a Test Match it's the best team that usually wins. Not the best wicketkeeper, spinner, or yes, captain, but the best team and India's fast bowlers just haven't been good enough. Thankfully, plenty of respected current and former cricketers rate Dhoni very highly because they know first hand that a captain is only as good as the team performs.
Fontaine Posted July 4, 2014 Posted July 4, 2014 That is your argument, replying to specific points I made with a smiley face? Why not reply to the points I made about attacking bowlers being used defensively, hence leaving them completely confused Do try to remember, that these bowlers are completely green. When a Kohli or a Pujara came into the team, we had the likes of Sachin, Dravid, Laxman to guide them each step with a captain who understands batting. However, these bowlers are completely directionless, and it is very clear they get confused in international matches. So when a captain can easily make or break them. Have you seen even one match with Umesh in the team and how the captain uses him as opposed to a Mohit Sharma? You have also not read anything in my post, it is obvious, I would like to know why the CSK attack is a replica of the India attack, same kind of bowlers, with the fast bowlers bowling defensively and the spinners as an attacking option? What was the fast bowlers performance in UAE? You made some generic statements and compared T20 bowling to Test Match bowlers. Really dude? I haven't posted here in a while but I remember you being one of the more level headed and logical posters here. What happened?
Iconoclast Posted July 5, 2014 Posted July 5, 2014 Both negative captains but Cook at least has experienced wicket taking bowlers and home conditions. If he still manages to screw this up ...
moniker Posted July 5, 2014 Posted July 5, 2014 So you want to get rid of Dhoni because he loses overseas. Fine. I'm not defending the poor record but if winning abroad is the criteria then almost every Indian captain is a failure. A lot of what you're discussing here are your opinions and educated guesses about what decisions and how Dhoni is making about his "young" bowlers when it doesn't work out. Again, fine, your opinion. Same thing with developing/managing bowling talent. You seem to think Dhoni is primarily responsible. I don't know what to tell you if you really believe that. By that argument, Captains like Ganguly were responsible for Munaf/Nehra/Pathan not developing either right? But you can pretty much make the same arguments for ANY captain that loses. Judgement based on hindsight without really knowing who makes what decisions and how. When it works out great and the team wins, the captain gets too much credit. When it doesn't and the team loses, well lets all blame the captain. Like it or not, over the course of 5 days in a Test Match it's the best team that usually wins. Not the best wicketkeeper, spinner, or yes, captain, but the best team and India's fast bowlers just haven't been good enough. Thankfully, plenty of respected current and former cricketers rate Dhoni very highly because they know first hand that a captain is only as good as the team performs. Who rates Dhoni highly as captain? Even Gavaskar, who is normally thought of as BCCI's paid stooge, has been critical of Dhoni's captaincy. Someone like Agarkar had said recently that Dhoni is lucky to be still be the captain after losing 10 away tests lol. Ganguly has said Dhoni's test captaincy is obnoxious. In New Zealand, Dhoni stationed a deepish slip almost directly behind himself for a spinner, Jadeja. It wasn't for taking a wicket, as an edge against a spinner won't carry that far, it was for keeping the edges from running down. "That one takes the cake. No, that one takes the whole bakery!", were the exasperated words of Gavaskar. In south Africa he didn't take the new ball until the ball was battered into being changed, presumably to keep the scoring down. These are just two instances of his bizarre captaincy. And there are countless instances that people have pointed out. You either do not follow test cricket properly or are such a die hard fan of Dhoni to not being able to see something that's staring at you right in the face.
BlueBee Posted July 5, 2014 Posted July 5, 2014 Hope skindia :call: Ash and Jaddu to point out these things
MCcricket Posted July 5, 2014 Posted July 5, 2014 Murali's thoughts are pretty generic nothing is specific, it is easy if you wanna learn how to bowl there see what Swann used to employ also how SL bowlers bowled, inexperience is an excuse, SL bowlers so Aus bowlers under Clarke after revamp were as NZ bowlers . Dhoni is problem number one, rest will resolve itself with a good attacking leader who has confidence and knows how to play and captain in test's.
MCcricket Posted July 5, 2014 Posted July 5, 2014 Who rates Dhoni highly as captain? Even Gavaskar, who is normally thought of as BCCI's paid stuge, has been critical of Dhoni's captaincy. Someone like Agarkar had said recently that Dhoni is lucky to be still be the captain after losing 10 away tests lol. Ganguly has said Dhoni's test captaincy is obnoxious. In New Zealand, Dhoni stationed a deepish slip almost directly behind himself for a spinner, Jadeja. It wasn't for taking a wicket, as an edge against a spinner won't carry that far, it was for keeping the edges from running down. "That one takes the cake. No, that one takes the whole bakery!", were the exasperated words of Gavaskar. In south Africa he didn't take the new ball until the ball was battered into being changed, presumably to keep the scoring down. These are just two instances of his bizarre captaincy. And there are countless instances that people have pointed out. You either do not follow test cricket properly or are such a die hard fan of Dhoni to not being able to see something that's staring at you right in the face. Dhoni to me is the worst test captain I have seen play for India by far, no one has the guts or balls to say this, Gavaskar, Shastri, all stooges, only Ganguly said it as he saw, Indi's 0-13 is purely because of him we could have won and drawn a couple of test easily under a proper captain in test's
Pagalpanti Posted July 5, 2014 Posted July 5, 2014 Cook beat Ind in Ind, tho KP and Swanny r no more. It should be a walk in the park for him. As bad as he is as a captain, any dud could win this series with that bowling line up vs Ind in english conditions.
BlueBee Posted July 5, 2014 Posted July 5, 2014 In England we can play with 4 bowlers. 3 seam and 1 spin. But in SA, AUS 4 pacers is a must
Stuge Posted July 5, 2014 Posted July 5, 2014 Do they need a hand in Ishant's presence? :hmmmm: You know my comment is a sarcastic one. Sent from my XT535 using Tapatalk 2
Stuge Posted July 5, 2014 Posted July 5, 2014 Good time for cook to get his form back ;) Sent from my XT535 using Tapatalk 2
SLICKR392 Posted July 5, 2014 Author Posted July 5, 2014 Murali's thoughts are pretty generic nothing is specific, it is easy if you wanna learn how to bowl there see what Swann used to employ also how SL bowlers bowled, inexperience is an excuse, SL bowlers so Aus bowlers under Clarke after revamp were as NZ bowlers . Dhoni is problem number one, rest will resolve itself with a good attacking leader who has confidence and knows how to play and captain in test's. Lankan bowlers bowled on tracks that assisted them. Karthik is talking about how to bowl in wickets without much assistance. Rather than pitching it at good length and varying your lines Ashwin will stick to this good old around the wicket, defensive leg stump ploy.
JaiRamesh2 Posted July 5, 2014 Posted July 5, 2014 Shastri is not aware of our captain and bowlers magical ability to bring out of form opposition talisman batsmen bang into form!
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