Patriotism and sports

[Bongosamaj]

so basically whenever India and aus playz. u support aus???

I usually don't support either side in a team game...i watch the game for a while, figure out who is the better side on that day(if i can) and support THEM. If i can't figure out who the better team that day is, i watch the match to see how it pans out. I really, really don't lose a minute's sleep if Indian cricket team implodes or gets whitewashed or whatever. Its just a fracking game to me, nothing more. I don't give a toss if Pakistan whitewashes India or vice-versa. I really don't. Or to be more accurate, i may be disappointed by India's loss for a grand total of one minute after the conclusion and then go on to do something else with cricket out of my mind.

[Cricketics]

I really, really don't lose a minute's sleep if Indian cricket team implodes or gets whitewashed or whatever. Its just a fracking game to me, nothing more. I don't give a toss if Pakistan whitewashes India or vice-versa. I really don't. Or to be more accurate, i may be disappointed by India's loss for a grand total of one minute after the conclusion and then go on to do something else with cricket out of my mind.

perhapz the reason why u feel why one should not alwayz support his country in sports..

[Bongosamaj]

perhapz the reason why u feel why one should not alwayz support his country in sports..

is what ? That is an incomplete sentence, you wrote. I am yet to see a good reason why to support a sports team just coz it hails from your country.

[Ram]

I am yet to see a good reason why to support a sports team just coz it hails from your country.

Sport is just a vehicle of expression of national pride/sentiment. Its just a symbol , as is celebrating republic day, or independence day or standing up when the national anthem is on. Nothing more , nothing less. Patriotism is something ingrained in each and every one of us. How much ever loathe our mother-land for whatever reasons , we always have a soft-corner towards it. And each one of us find different means to express it. Some join the army , some join the civil work-force , some choose to root passionately when their national team is performing. There is nothing called worthwhile nationalism or trivial nationalism. After all , nationalism itself is a limited concept. If someone gets joy from rooting for their country, even its just sport, so be it. Yet , you can support your country and yet be objective enough to appreciate the good performance of the opponents. Dont assume those two to be mutually exclusive.

[Bongosamaj]

Sport is just a vehicle of expression of national pride/sentiment.

Correction. Sports is just a contest- the competetive spirit mixed in with the fun-seeking spirit . It has been turned into a vehicle of expressing national pride/sentiment by the insecure losers who either feel the need to express their insecurities or who put way too much meaning and emotions into something that is ultimately a few guys kicking a ball or whacking a ball.

Patriotism is something ingrained in each and every one of us.

Count me out of the patriot's club. Its a pretty retarded club and one that is exposed in its retardation as one travels the world and experiences the culture and mindset of other people. I take pride in what india once was. Not what it is today, which is a deeply flawed society with many social issues brushed under the carpet of blind nationalism by many.

How much ever loathe our mother-land for whatever reasons , we always have a soft-corner towards it.

That isn't patriotism, that is sentimentalism. Patriotism is the burning desire to see the motherland trump other lands or come out near the top and our desires trumping our sound judgement which leads us to embellish facts, mispotray facts, etc and ultimately, lead to some pretty sick avenues of fundamentalism.

Some join the army , some join the civil work-force , some choose to root passionately when their national team is performing.

The ones joining the army or choosing civic service is doing something tangiable and of utility- the passionate rooters in sport are doing nothing but venting their desires in an avenue that is at best, trivial. Easy to spot which one of the three categories belongs in Loser-ville.

There is nothing called worthwhile nationalism or trivial nationalism.

oh yes there is. When you get nationalistic over a sport or who's copper plate inscription is cuter or some stupid utterly meaningless tripe like that, it is trivial means of expressing nationalism and comes from a perspective not entirely balanced in the big picture. Sport is an avenue for fun and competing with the PEOPLE who are on the field. Not a ground for battle of nations and those who feel that way should either join the army or realize how infantile their perspectives are. Two kids playfighting with swords, one pretending to be Ram and the other Ravan are more authentic and understandable than thousands of morons cheering runs scored by their home team and going stunningly silent when one of their favourite boys is dismissed.

Yet , you can support your country and yet be objective enough to appreciate the good performance of the opponents. Dont assume those two to be mutually exclusive.

For the vast majority of the sports-fans, its mutually exclusive. Which is why we have dumb-$hit debates like Tendy > Bradman or Kumble > Warne, etc etc. which any sane neutral observer would be loathe to debate. The need to support the country in an avenue as trivial as sport is at best naive, at worst, utterly pathetic. The need to express nationalism is pretty insecure at the core, which is why i am GLAD i moved to Canada, a nation that does not espouse the virtues of nationalism or patriotism but accepts the equality of all and tries to forge a truely multicultural, multi-ethnic global community in the society. And don't come with 'India is more diverse' claptrap. Yes, India is more diverse but we didn't CHOOSE it that way- we are stuck with it and all the political and socio-religious machinations in India is fundamentally geared towards trying to push the agenda of one ethnic group or one culture group over another, not accepting each other's and extending the outlook towards the world. If you truely want to be nationalistic - try learning a bit more about your own culture, your own history and take it to the world- the philosophies and culture developed through the ages in India is a virtual treasure-trove, waiting to spread itself to the world and do a lot of good. That avenue,atleast leads to some tangiable results and aspires to a far greater cause than moronic chest-thumpings in sports. But unfortunately, thanks to the 'patriot' amongst us, the forays of Indians in the world invariably leads to pungent odious chest-thumpings of insecurity, where the inherent need to feel superior assets its ugly head again. Which is why Indians cannot accept that Bharatnatyam is no better or no worse than Ballet and that Bheem Sen Joshi is no better and no worse than Pavarotti. Try that avenue for a change instead of the completely pointless and confrontational perspective of venting your own desires and frustrations through the meaningless avenue of 22 men trying to whack a ball or chase a ball. The only tangiable divident from patriotism in sport is creating divide amongst humans and magnifying it through an utterly meaningless and trivial avenue of who whacks or kicks or tosses a ball better. And with the only tangiable divident comming out of nationalism/patriotism in sports being an utterly negetive impact, it should be of no surprise that i am completely against such mind-numbingly moronic perspective that mixes sports with nationalism. Just try to focus on the fact that you are a human being first, Indian second, that a Pakistani is a human being first and Pakistani second and you might just begin to comprehend where i am comming from.

[Cricketics]

Bonga samaj, suppose theres a Tag-of-war game between Ur Family and world class tag-of-war team.. ur family would consist of elders of ur family, ur wife and ur kids.. u are to play this tag of war against world greatest tag of war team.. now whom would u support??? being INdia or say being a family member wuold u support ur family or here also would u think before supporting ur family???

[Bongosamaj]

now whom would u support???

I'd sit back and enjoy the spectacle and maybe poke a bit of good-natured fun at my faimly when it gets owned by the world class team. I reserve my 'support' for my family when something tangiable and meaningful is concerned and where their own safety/lifestyle is in jeopardy. But suffice to say, if my brother deciedes to challenge Roger Federer, i will not pass up the opportunity to sit in, take the spectacle and later remind my brother on how he got schooled by Federer. I don't consider such trivial issues to be worth making a 'support' for or a case for. And personally, i am glad that my family isnt insecure or pathetic enough to consider support for them in such a trivial issue to be mandatory or worth getting cheesed off over if not shown. PS: my name is Bongosamaj, not Bongasamaj...got it, tic-tac-toe man ?

[Gambit]

Would these be the same non nationalistic Canadians you talked about CC? M4TC56-6oVE

Which is why we have dumb- debates like Tendy > Bradman or Kumble > Warne, etc etc. which any sane neutral observer would be loathe to debate.

Since you portray yourself to be quite the sane neutral observer, why do you time and again participate in such comparisons here and at the same time do the same on CaribbeanCricket bat for the other side there i.e. big up Tendulkar against Lara, Indian team over others etc etc. Why the duplicity? :bird:

[Bongosamaj]

Would these be the same non nationalistic Canadians you talked about CC?

Eh ? I gather from the huge empty space in your post that you tried to post some video/link/picture or something..but it didn't show up.

Since you portray yourself to be quite the sane neutral observer, why do you time and again participate in such comparisons here and at the same time do the same on CaribbeanCricket but bat for the other side there i.e. big up Tendulkar against Lara, Indian team over others etc etc

Because in neutral observations, Tendy > Lara, Bradman > Tendy, Warne > Kumble all make sense. suffice to say, Indian fans arnt the only victims to these type of jingoism involved with the team. And as far as CC.com goes, i havn't been there for over 2 yrs, i don't even know if WIfan tag is in use or not. Neither do i care much tbh. Those folks, i am sorry to say, have far bigger issues than nationalism and jingoism.

[zubinpepsi]

seriously.. this lecture is quite boring........ :D

[Gambit]

Eh ? I gather from the huge empty space in your post that you tried to post some video/link/picture or something..but it didn't show up.

Try now.

And as far as CC.com goes, i havn't been there for over 2 yrs, i don't even know if WIfan tag is in use or not. Neither do i care much tbh. Those folks, i am sorry to say, have far bigger issues than nationalism and jingoism.

LOL. Who are you trying to fool dude? Do you really think I'm that gullible? Do you really want me to provide links for people here on similar issues to judge whether WIFan and you are the same or not? And I didn't even mention WIFan in my previous post.

[Bongosamaj]

Ok gambo, now your video shows up...It was a riot in Vancouver 15 yrs ago or so during the Stanley cup finals. Stanley cup is a club sport, like UEFA cup, not a sphere of national competition. Neither did i see a SINGLE Canada flag being waved in that crowd- they are mostly dressed in Hockey regalia. So how do you infer nationalism from that crowd is my question to you. Especially since FACT is, 80% of NHL players are Canadians. In the average Canucks vs Rangers or maple leafs vs Dallas games, 80% of the players on ice-for BOTH teams- are Canadians. So where does nationalism enter the picture ?

[Bongosamaj]

Do you really want me to provide links for people here on similar issues to judge whether WIFan and you are the same or not?

Feel free. But i genuinely have not been in CC.com for a long while now. Neither do i see its relevance. I already answered your question- which is i potray perspectives without nationalism or national pride entering the fray. It may be biassed in other ways, but the nation of a sportsman has literally zero bearing in my perspective.

And I didn't even mention WIFan in my previous post.

no, you did not- i did, because that is what my userID used to be there. I don't get the reason for your laughter. if that userID is active, its not my doing- you are better off asking the admins there ( i forget their name..Ryan is one i remember) about the user.

[Ram]

Correction. Sports is just a contest- the competetive spirit mixed in with the fun-seeking spirit . It has been turned into a vehicle of expressing national pride/sentiment by the insecure losers who either feel the need to express their insecurities or who put way too much meaning and emotions into something that is ultimately a few guys kicking a ball or whacking a ball.

I agree to almost all of what you have said above , but you must recognize that the society by and large gives a lot of importance to symbols. If we were to dismiss every expression of national sentiment , we wouldnt be doing a lot of things that we do now. There wouldnt be republic day parades , nor would there be a national anthem even.

Count me out of the patriot's club. Its a pretty retarded club and one that is exposed in its retardation as one travels the world and experiences the culture and mindset of other people. I take pride in what india once was. Not what it is today, which is a deeply flawed society with many social issues brushed under the carpet of blind nationalism by many.

True , once someone gets a world-view, its difficult to restrict oneself to the concept of nationalistic allegiances. But trust me , there is STILL lot to feel proud about India , even today. Yes , our society has imperfections , but to say that we are nothing but a nation of only past greatness is just pure prejudice.

That isn't patriotism, that is sentimentalism. Patriotism is the burning desire to see the motherland trump other lands or come out near the top and our desires trumping our sound judgement which leads us to embellish facts, mispotray facts, etc and ultimately, lead to some pretty sick avenues of fundamentalism.

That is a wrong definition. What you have defined is not patriotism , but jingoism. Patriotism doesnt draw its roots from trumping other nations, but pride in what we already are. I take pride in the multi-religious nature of our society and flaunt it everywhere.

The ones joining the army or choosing civic service is doing something tangiable and of utility- the passionate rooters in sport are doing nothing but venting their desires in an avenue that is at best, trivial. Easy to spot which one of the three categories belongs in Loser-ville.

Do you really think there is actually two classes of nationalism ? Trivial and non-trivial ? Considering nationalism itself is a flawed concept in the first place.

oh yes there is. When you get nationalistic over a sport or who's copper plate inscription is cuter or some stupid utterly meaningless tripe like that, it is trivial means of expressing nationalism and comes from a perspective not entirely balanced in the big picture. Sport is an avenue for fun and competing with the PEOPLE who are on the field. Not a ground for battle of nations and those who feel that way should either join the army or realize how infantile their perspectives are. Two kids playfighting with swords, one pretending to be Ram and the other Ravan are more authentic and understandable than thousands of morons cheering runs scored by their home team and going stunningly silent when one of their favourite boys is dismissed.

That is the way you see it. I see the average spectator as someone who goes to the match to express his support to his players, cheers vociferously when they perform well. Egg them on when the chips are down. Now, isnt the constructive enough support ?

For the vast majority of the sports-fans, its mutually exclusive. Which is why we have dumb- debates like Tendy > Bradman or Kumble > Warne, etc etc. which any sane neutral observer would be loathe to debate.

I agree. But dont generalize. There are true supporters of the game who appreciate really good performances by players of either team , but ultimately return disappointed if their team loses.

The need to support the country in an avenue as trivial as sport is at best naive, at worst, utterly pathetic. The need to express nationalism is pretty insecure at the core, which is why i am GLAD i moved to Canada, a nation that does not espouse the virtues of nationalism or patriotism but accepts the equality of all and tries to forge a truely multicultural, multi-ethnic global community in the society. And don't come with 'India is more diverse' claptrap. Yes, India is more diverse but we didn't CHOOSE it that way- we are stuck with it and all the political and socio-religious machinations in India is fundamentally geared towards trying to push the agenda of one ethnic group or one culture group over another, not accepting each other's and extending the outlook towards the world.

Which is where you fail to see the role of a game like cricket in promoting national unity/integration. A cricket match is an event , its a spectacle in itself. Its a time when 30,000 people come together for a single reason. 30,000 people , irrespective of class/creed/wealth are all there for the same reason. That is an powerful tool to promote community sentiment. Dont under-estimate that aspect. After all , it isnt often that tens of thousands of people come together for a single cause in India. And its the very same diverse nature of India that finds strength in the national sport.You have muslim, christian players playing hand-in-hand with their hindu team mates. You seem them celebrating , hugging , giving each other hi-fis. They all play a massive role in sensitizing our society to people of different religion. And more importantly , you have people of different backgrounds coming to the top. Small town guys like Dhoni are now national icons. They serve as role-models to thousands of kids.

If you truely want to be nationalistic - try learning a bit more about your own culture, your own history and take it to the world- the philosophies and culture developed through the ages in India is a virtual treasure-trove, waiting to spread itself to the world and do a lot of good. That avenue,atleast leads to some tangiable results and aspires to a far greater cause than moronic chest-thumpings in sports. But unfortunately, thanks to the 'patriot' amongst us, the forays of Indians in the world invariably leads to pungent odious chest-thumpings of insecurity, where the inherent need to feel superior assets its ugly head again. Which is why Indians cannot accept that Bharatnatyam is no better or no worse than Ballet and that Bheem Sen Joshi is no better and no worse than Pavarotti.

I agree almost whole-heartedly to what you are saying , but you must understand that being a true nationalist and supporting your team in sport arent two mutually exclusive phenomenon, atleast for a few of us.

Try that avenue for a change instead of the completely pointless and confrontational perspective of venting your own desires and frustrations through the meaningless avenue of 22 men trying to whack a ball or chase a ball. The only tangiable divident from patriotism in sport is creating divide amongst humans and magnifying it through an utterly meaningless and trivial avenue of who whacks or kicks or tosses a ball better. And with the only tangiable divident comming out of nationalism/patriotism in sports being an utterly negetive impact, it should be of no surprise that i am completely against such mind-numbingly moronic perspective that mixes sports with nationalism. Just try to focus on the fact that you are a human being first, Indian second, that a Pakistani is a human being first and Pakistani second and you might just begin to comprehend where i am comming from.

Well said.

[Bongosamaj]

but you must recognize that the society by and large gives a lot of importance to symbols.

I recognize. I also recognize that some symbols are utterly meaningless & pathetic in nature.

If we were to dismiss every expression of national sentiment , we wouldnt be doing a lot of things that we do now. There wouldnt be republic day parades , nor would there be a national anthem even.

Disagree...republic day parade & national anthems are there to commemorate something TANGIABLE. Ie, the independence of a nation or its existence. neither did i say dismiss every expression of national sentiment- just that national sentiment in sports is pretty DUMB.

But trust me , there is STILL lot to feel proud about India , even today. Yes , our society has imperfections , but to say that we are nothing but a nation of only past greatness is just pure prejudice.

What India once was compared to what India today is, is very much a question of a nation still living largely on past greatness- atleast, culturally.

What you have defined is not patriotism , but jingoism.

The difference between patriotism and jingoism is the difference between aquamarine and purple...veyr close and very much flowing into one another. I see little reason to differentiate between the two.

Do you really think there is actually two classes of nationalism ? Trivial and non-trivial ? Considering nationalism itself is a flawed concept in the first place.

yes i do. Nationalism expressed in something tangiable, of certain utility and that isnt directly confrontational is non-trivial to me. Nationalism expressed in something completely intangiable, of zero utility and that only fosters negetives, such as nationalism in sport, is completely trivial to me.

[Predator_05]

I totally agree with CC. In fact, i'd even go as far as to say that we should all follow the philosophy of the Khmer Rouge - reverting back to year 0, pulling the population out of the cities and into labour camps instead; working for a superior being and no one else. It will be a classless society, one where everyone is equal and a primitive concepts such as nationalism and capitalism are abolished. That is my idea of heaven and it's a shame that all you foolish earthlings don't conform to it.

[Bongosamaj]

Now, isnt the constructive enough support ?

It would be, if the support was based on meritocracy and not nationalistic jingoism. It would be constructive if fans were egging on a great player out of form- be it Tendulkar or Gillchrist. Not egging one on and gloating in the demise of the other.

There are true supporters of the game who appreciate really good performances by players of either team , but ultimately return disappointed if their team loses.

Unfortunately, these 'true supporters' are outnumbered 10:1 by jingoistic ones. This site is clear indication of that, as is attending a match in a stadium or watching it live.

That is an powerful tool to promote community sentiment. Dont under-estimate that aspect.

And don't underestimate the festering nature of that communal sentiment that routinely pits huge sections of the fanbase and crowds in 'us vs them' mentality.

After all , it isnt often that tens of thousands of people come together for a single cause in India.

Very common actually...half a dozen times, MILLIONS come together in celebrating/having fun in each other's religious or cultural festivals.

[Bongosamaj]

In fact, i'd even go as far as to say that we should all follow the philosophy of the Khmer Rouge - reverting back to year 0, pulling the population out of the cities and into labour camps instead; working for a superior being and no one else. It will be a classless society, one where everyone is equal and a primitive concepts such as nationalism and capitalism are abolished. That is my idea of heaven and it's a shame that all you foolish earthlings don't conform to it.

Its either your disingenousness or failure to understand the issue me and sriram are talking about. Infact, i did give an example- one of Canada, not of Khmer Rouge. Maybe the sensationalist in you got the better of the pragmatic in you.

[Predator_05]

Its either your disingenousness or failure to understand the issue me and sriram are talking about. Infact, i did give an example- one of Canada, not of Khmer Rouge. Maybe the sensationalist in you got the better of the pragmatic in you.

I am all sensationalist, baby. Anyway, i think we've digressed enough from Muralitharan's idiocy so if you want to continue this fascinating discourse of philosophical ideas, please take it to the General Discussions forum Thank you :regular_smile:

[Gambit]

Ok gambo, now your video shows up...It was a riot in Vancouver 15 yrs ago or so during the Stanley cup finals. Stanley cup is a club sport, like UEFA cup, not a sphere of national competition. Neither did i see a SINGLE Canada flag being waved in that crowd- they are mostly dressed in Hockey regalia. So how do you infer nationalism from that crowd is my question to you. Especially since FACT is, 80% of NHL players are Canadians. In the average Canucks vs Rangers or maple leafs vs Dallas games, 80% of the players on ice-for BOTH teams- are Canadians. So where does nationalism enter the picture ?

Forget nationalism. Regionalism here crazed people. The video proves that sport to most people matters. People pledge allegiance to a club/country in sports and support them till they die. People in England shell out money to help their local clubs, take time off, sub as a video analyst and then go crazy when they lose. It's a sense of participation. Kind of like a brotherhood. Feeling dejected and sad after your team loses does not equate to moronic jingoism. Feeling proud when your country or your countryman does well in a sport does not equate to misplaced nationalism. To call them morons and losers like you have is pretty idiotic.