Patriotism and sports

[Ram]

My thoughts on this can be summarized as follows,

• Ok, to reply in short to you, sport , as a vehicle of expression of national fervor is quite primitive, but it is vital to promoting community sentiment. It is something people of different classes can identify themselves with.

• Yes , most fans turn out to be jingoistic but there is still a minority that knows how to appreciate true talent, irrespective of who does it.

• Sport also acts helps in sensitizing people to different things and different peoples. That aspect of it shouldnt be dis-carded.

[Bongosamaj]

Regionalism here crazed people.

Regionalism ?!? I've never seen a BC vs Ontario or BC vs New York or Alberta vs California angle..or even a Vancouver vs Toronto or Montreal vs Dallas angle in hockey matches or amongst their fans...

People pledge allegiance to a club/country in sports and support them till they die.

Dude, allegience to club is far lighter than allegience to country...and you NEVER find few people dying every match due to heart-failure or stress in Canada due to sports as you do in India! The Canadian stock market doesn't suspend its trading for a sport ! There is no comparison, really.

Feeling proud when your country or your countryman does well in a sport does not equate to misplaced nationalism.

Feeling proud when your countryman does well or feeling dejected when your countryman does poorly in a case where 'well or poor' means whacking a ball or kicking a ball better/worse is pretty pathetic. There are a zillion other far better things and far more tangiable things to feel better/worse about one's country rather than whacking a ball or throwing something. Pretty silly a notion and yes, i realize that millions, if not billions are already mental slaves to such idiotic concepts of patriotism and brotherhood.

[Bongosamaj]

but it is vital to promoting community sentiment.

No, it is not. Sports is, at best, a 100-200 yr phenomena in collective psyche. Community sentiment is thousands of years old. To say sports is vital to promoting community sentiment is serious embellishment of the concept of community. But sports DOES breed divisiveness in the human community. Look at how Aussie fans get treated here and look at how Indian fans get treated on their boards...the SOLE reason for this instinctive and inherent discrimination is down squarely due to sports-related jingoism. Ie, as i said before, the ONLY tangiable result of sports is a clear and categoric negetive one.

Yes , most fans turn out to be jingoistic but there is still a minority that knows how to appreciate true talent, irrespective of who does it.

Good for them and more power to them. But i am very much interested in addressing the majority phenomenon at work here, not the few sane minority.

Sport also acts helps in sensitizing people to different things and different peoples. That aspect of it shouldnt be dis-carded.

The result of which, at the end is far more negetive than positive.

[Gambit]

Neither do i see its relevance. I already answered your question- which is i potray perspectives without nationalism or national pride entering the fray. It may be biassed in other ways, but the nation of a sportsman has literally zero bearing in my perspective.

It is very relevant because you claim to be above such 'moronic' sporting patriotic ties here but on caribbeancricket you relentlessly defend the Indian team and SRT/RD. Heck you even defended the monkey chants incident there but condemned it here. Duplicity like I said.

no, you did not- i did, because that is what my userID used to be there. I don't get the reason for your laughter. if that userID is active, its not my doing- you are better off asking the admins there ( i forget their name..Ryan is one i remember) about the user.

Ok. Since you won't own up and continue to lie, I shall show you a few posts. First up, your jazz thread from a few weeks ago here on ICF:

Here is a piece of music i found surfing youtube early this morning, that was probably the highlight of the week for me. This is Dave Brubeck quartet, playing a piece from the album 'Take Five'. The sax solo, as usual, is awesome. But in this live recording ( where the quality of sound isnt very good, i admit), the drummer throws in his improv solo- what is possibly the best ever solo piece in western drumming history ( or atleast, close to it, by far the best ever western drum solo i've ever heard). Its not there in the album i bought, so i am assuming that this was a improv solo from the drummer.

http://www.indiancricketfans.com/showthread.php?p=222367 From WIFAN on CarribeanCricket:

Here is a piece of music i found surfing youtube early this morning, that was probably the highlight of the week for me. This is Dave Brubeck quartet, playing a piece from the album 'Take Five'. The sax solo, as usual, is awesome. But in this live recording ( where the quality of sound isnt very good, i admit), the drummer throws in his improv solo- what is possibly the best ever solo piece in western drumming history ( or atleast, close to it, by far the best ever western drum solo i've ever heard). Its not there in the album i bought, so i am assuming that this was a improv solo from the drummer. Oh, these were the days, long gone, when western music used to be amazingly good. Anyways, enjoy:

http://caribbeancricket.com/topic/868962/1 Amazing coincidence wouldn't you say? You own a gun:

*sigh*...i already own an SKS rifle and a S&W 1911...obviously i have a gun license otherwise i wouldnt be able to buy a gun in the first place...this is Canada, not hick gun-country USA where any Tom,Dick & Harry can walk into a supermarket and buy a semi-automatic rifle !

http://www.indiancricketfans.com/showthread.php?t=6266 And guess what, WIFan owns the same gun :hysterical:

Handguns are fun in the range. Seriously, i don't mind guns- primarily because I myself am a gun-owner. Going chitti-chitti-bang-bang on a saturday afternoon with my SiG or my SKS is pretty fun !

http://caribbeancricket.com/archivedtopic/861363#p1844291 WIFan's mother is a professional singer:

Thanks for the first intellectual comment in this thread after the initial post, DonD. You are quite correct- i picked up on Dave Brubeck in university, though i am no longer in university. If you remember, i mentioned before that my mother is a professional singer & i hang around a lotta musicians ( as in serious musicians - music teachers/concert players,etc. not some two-bit rapping idiot or retard smashing guitar-strings trying to be like Dreamtheatre), so i do pick up on a lot of oldie music that is largely forgotten in the mainstream media but is of far higher quality.

http://caribbeancricket.com/topic/868962 And lo and behold, so is yours!

For music- i have said that my only basis for understanding music is my mother, who is a professional singer in India in Rabindrasangeet.

http://www.indiancricketfans.com/showthread.php?t=10384 And the funniest thing is Bongosamaj/WIfan was criticising Sree and the Indian crowd for their behaviour against Symonds but on CaribbeanCricket, he was defending it!

who said it was purely religious ? You are ASSUMING it is a racist chant because it is so in YOUR country and culture. In India- all over India- people are called monkeys derogatively to imply they are miscreants and troublemakers. It is far likelier that THIS was the intent of the monkey-chants because of Symmo's obvious friction between Sreesanth. Why the fook are you assuming that it is a racist chant when it is NOT a racial reference in that culture ? If symmo was called a 'blackhead', that'd have been racist but being called a monkey in India ? FFS! its one of the most common (and mild) cuss-words used in India and NOBODY EVAH get riled about it being a racial taunt, even if its a fairer indian saying it to a darkie. As i said, ICC owes an apology for imposing its euro-centric cultural beleifs on us. PS: Symmo is NOT the first one to be called a monkey in the cricket field by the crowds in India. Ponting was called that in 2001 too and i wonder why nobody flashed the 'race' card in that instance.

http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:PlbN_Frzt8kJ:caribbeancricket.com/topic/867868/16+caribbeancricket+wifan+sreesanth&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2 Do you still deny this? :D I've got lots more links You are nothing but a crazed hypocritical contrarian. :hysterical:

[Gambit]

Regionalism ?!? I've never seen a BC vs Ontario or BC vs New York or Alberta vs California angle..or even a Vancouver vs Toronto or Montreal vs Dallas angle in hockey matches or amongst their fans...

Regionalism/localism. Call it what you want. It was a riot initiated by supporters of a local side, not even a national team

Dude, allegience to club is far lighter than allegience to country...and you NEVER find few people dying every match due to heart-failure or stress in Canada due to sports as you do in India! The Canadian stock market doesn't suspend its trading for a sport ! There is no comparison, really.

So why were there riots? Indian fans have never rioted in a city and destroyed public property after a loss. In a stadium yes but never ever in a city.

Feeling proud when your countryman does well or feeling dejected when your countryman does poorly in a case where 'well or poor' means whacking a ball or kicking a ball better/worse is pretty pathetic. There are a zillion other far better things and far more tangiable things to feel better/worse about one's country rather than whacking a ball or throwing something.

There might a zillion other things but for most people, this sport 'thing' matters WIFan. Whether you like it or not.

Pretty silly a notion and yes, i realize that millions, if not billions are already mental slaves to such idiotic concepts of patriotism and brotherhood.

And so are you. As evidenced by the lengths you go to on CaribbeanCricket to defend the Indian team. So give up this holier than thou BS please. :cantstop:

[Predator_05]

Ok. Since you won't own up and continue to lie, I shall show you a few posts. First up, your jazz thread from a few weeks ago here on ICF: http://www.indiancricketfans.com/showthread.php?p=222367 From WIFAN on CarribeanCricket: http://caribbeancricket.com/topic/868962/1 Amazing coincidence wouldn't you say?

What coincidence ? In the ICF post, CC says -> "Stuff like this is just as good as the Ravi Shankars/Alla-Rakha Khans of indian classical music in my opinion." - this line cannot be found on the other forum's post. So clearly, it's not him. I think we should stop being such jingoistic animals and give CC the benefit of the doubt - it must have been the work of some dastardly American imposter (probably some schmuck naive enough to think 9/11 wasn't an inside job). Surely you aren't insinuating that some dude on the WI forum is the same guy as our CC ?

[Gambit]

What coincidence ? In the ICF post' date=' CC says -> "Stuff like this is just as good as the Ravi Shankars/Alla-Rakha Khans of indian classical music in my opinion." - this line cannot be found on the other forum's post. So clearly, it's not him. I think we should stop being such jingoistic animals and give CC the benefit of the doubt - it must have been the work of some dastardly American imposter (probably some schmuck naive enough to think 9/11 wasn't an inside job). Surely you aren't insinuating that some dude on the WI forum is the same guy as our CC ?[/quote'] :hysterical::hysterical: That is why I take whatever he says with 2 tons of salt because he says stuff here just to contradict the general sentiment. Same on caribbeancricket. Look at his Sreesanth post that I gave the link for. That is a hoot. Acting quite righteous here and lecturing Indians on how wrong that incident was but defending the same on CaribbeanCricket. :hysterical:

[Predator_05]

This should be in Other Sports, not in General Disc

[Guest dada_rocks]

u guys are wasting time over this sample.

[fineleg]

u guys are wasting time over this sample.

LOL! Anything (did bhajji bowl well, will SL win a match..) is a waste of time depending on how you look at it. So, while we spend time in ICF, anything goes :D

[Bongosamaj]

it must have been the work of some dastardly American imposter (probably some schmuck naive enough to think 9/11 wasn't an inside job).

You either give me too much credit or know too little of the world around you if you think i am the only one to hold the view that 9/11 had US govt. inside involvement. Honestly, i am not active at any other site save this one. Though in CC.com, i've seen userIDs being ressurected/re-used after protracted periods of inactivity from my experience there. In either case, i do not see the relevance of this ?

[Bongosamaj]

Regionalism/localism. Call it what you want. It was a riot initiated by supporters of a local side, not even a national team

Umm dude..the riots started coz someone got drunk and got rowdy....trust me, there is very little regionalism/localism/city-ism in North American sports...nothing different south of the border either.You don't see sports-gang stuff here or any sort of sports-based riots/killings...the $hit that happened in Vancouver 14-15 yrs ago still happens every other year in a rock concert or some other place...basically anywhere with booze where people get rowdy and $hit happens...its NOT a sports-related phenomena!For sporting jingoism, try India or Australia for cricket and Europe for soccer or Rugby.

Indian fans have never rioted in a city and destroyed public property after a loss.

Categoric lie. Indian cricket fans have destroyed a stadium multiple number of times because of their inability to deal with the outcome of a sport.

There might a zillion other things but for most people, this sport 'thing' matters WIFan. Whether you like it or not.

To most sports fans, sports matters...where you get the idea that most people are sports fans is beyond me, it is a significant part of society but by no means a majority... And yes, most sports-fans are pretty nutty to begin with.

As evidenced by the lengths you go to on CaribbeanCricket to defend the Indian team.

As i said, it aint me baby. But glad to see atleast some Indians/Indian imposter thinks on the same frequency as i do.

Heck you even defended the monkey chants incident there but condemned it here. Duplicity like I said.

Now you are making categoric false allegations. I've defended the monkey-chants here....and ICF thread is a proof of that!

Amazing coincidence wouldn't you say?

Yes it is. Glad to see someone following me around/posting my $hit around...cult following ? hmmmm.... well anyways...as far as CC.com goes- i spent a few yrs there long ago and if you have been too, i am sure you know that many of the userIDs there are fakes/multiple IDs....There was the Biggie-->Ryan thing IIRC...one of the main reasons i quit the site, coz i didnt know who i was talking to.

WIFan's mother is a professional singer:

I don't see the relevance, consdering i'd declared that many yrs earlier in the original ICF...as i said, that site is pretty amazing at running imposters/lifting comments around from elsewhere, which is one of the main reasons i said aloha there quite some yrs ago.

Do you still deny this? :D I've got lots more links You are nothing but a crazed hypocritical contrarian.

Nothing to deny, as i have stated here that i didn't think Monkey chants to be racist. So whoever this person is, isn't disagreeing with me, so i don't see the contrarian angle one iota, sorry to say. But thanks for the entertainment and thanks for making me feel puffed up for a few momements- its not often I have a copycat around ! PS: Your allegations (and my discovery of an imposter) aside, i'd like to get back to the original content of the thread, as it was promising to be an interesting discourse in sociology. Too bad you snipped the posts at the wrong point and jumbled up the order of the post...thanks(sic) for f*cking up the order of the debate we were having, Gambo!

[Bongosamaj]

which means some one is copying your posts and posting over there :whatchutalkingabout

Cool ! In anycase, the wordings are not the same, so either way, whoever is doing the copying, is actually rephrasing the words to appear their own...i definitely do have an admirer it seems. :haha::haha::haha::haha:

[Rajiv]

Ya man..thats complete Plagiarism

[Bongosamaj]

except that one would have had to go back in time and make that post on CC.com as the timestamp there is earlier to that of post here by a minute.... the plot thickens

Timestamp is dependent on YOUR computer clock...f*cking DUH! CC.com time stamps arnt server regulated..or atleast, wasnt so few yrs ago and every n00b there complained about their timezones being off until they made a sticky out of it. In anycase, i peruse the site shiv446 or whatever and i post there as WIfan....and someone impostering me on CC.com is likely to get my ideas from Shiv446 to begin with,not ICF. Perhaps your query of time-stamps should begin there if you are to build a case ? Do you really want more rope to hang yourself after your stats-thread fiasco ?

[Rajiv]

..the user names on that site sound like Beer names Roots Raggs southward SpudsMcKenzie

[Bongosamaj]

..the user names on that site sound like Beer names Roots Raggs southward SpudsMcKenzie

Roots- well sounds like that apparel chain Raggs- ditto Southward- not sure...sounds more like some hard liquor that gives you perpetual flaccidity SpudsMcKenzie- sounds like a fat potato merchant.

[Bongosamaj]

so now you are programmer that knows how timestamps are saved on a website ?

I am enough of a programmer to know how easy it is to [mess] around with time-stamps, champ. And if you don't think that is true, pick up the curriculum of any electrical/electronics engineering program in Canada and find out for yourself whether they teach you how to program or not. Plus i've already declared many many moons ago that i use Linux to run my system....it should be obvious i know a thing or three about programming and computers to efficiently run linux.

lets see if youcan respond to the last post there by Doc

I've already responded to the doc in the previous comment and as i said, the Doc would know what i am talking about if he read my comments through the thread.

and provide the link to Demorgans theorem ..

Request denied. I provided you with FAR better evidence than a link- direct verbatim quote from a book, the page #, the author, the ISBN#. I am sure if you want a website to confirm it, you can find it yourself but i see no obligation to spend an hour of my time perusing and proof-reading math websites to find what you want. This is yet another of your tactic to try and save face despite being coprehensively proven wrong, for i already EXCEEDED your demands by something FAR MORE CREDIBLE than you asked for or tried to counter with. Since when is quoting a university level mathematics book not proof enough in a mathematical discussion ? perhaps only to egotistic jingoists like you, but last i checked, quoting a math book in a discussion about mathematics is accepted at ANY level of debate, including the ones where your pathetic websites won't count for much. Comprende ? Good....now, hopefully, one day you will learn a bit about statistics, instead of bull$hitting about holding 3-4 university degrees in 3-4 different fields.

what are the odds of that post being done by some one else after you posted it on our site AND that the server time clock was fudged by about a minute or so ?

I dunno...as i said, i post on Shiv446 and the imposter is likely to copy me from THERE, not from here, since CC.com and Shiv446 have many common mutual members. I don't peruse the mbs in any order- its quite possible that i posted my views on Shiv446 first and then here, and in meanwhile the imposter had made his copy in the delay period. [edited : needless insults] I find it hard to believe that you hold university level degrees in statistics, engineering and compsci, have followed cricket for 30 yrs and yet have mindboggling hours to spend on the internet. Sorry, but you should try that on little kids. [edited : again insults]

[Rajiv]

CC, don't get personal and control your language please

[Bongosamaj]

Doc has made a new post ... http://www.indiancricketfans.com/sho...125#post239125

Nothing more to add, as i already said, his questions have already been covered in the thread previously by me. As i said to the Doc, he can read up and find the answers.

and I provided enough links to prove it otherwise

No-name garbage questionable links- one a personal webspace of some unknown, the other wikipedia, which is NOT a quotable source.

unless ofcourse all websites are lying in a co-ordinated manne

not lying but lacking in depth.I've not contradicted anything said in the website- i touched on info your barebone website doesn't cover. Which is why i quoted a mathematics textbook and as i said, you are the arrogant fool to ask for more when a math textbook of impeccable standing is quoted. To put it shortly, you simply cannot handle being CATEGORICALLY PROVEN WRONG and that is in accordance with your nature, given you've never admitted your error or apologized for anything on this website. That you see what i said and what your website said to be mutually exclusive and thus 'lying' only further goes to prove how little grasp you have over the BASICS of statistics. But continue to make a mockery of yourself, champ! Afterall, you hold 3 degrees in 3 different field, have time for cricket, time for missus and hours/day for this board, eh ? Pffffffffffft!