Speeds and Performances of Pacers and Spinners

[express bowling]

I'm talking about performance in respect of wickets only. See this series,BK has been taking wickets while Shami wasnt so he was rightly dropped despite him being faster.Pankaj was retained bcoz he created more chances than Shami last match,again being slower. You can't carry non performers irrespective of whether they are fast or not. Varun was poor in NZ,got dropped then worked with Donald in IPL and has looked better bowler since.Dropping a work in progress is not always bad.

We are not talking about faster bowlers here but genuine fast bowlers. Those who can soften batsmen with pace and hostility. These bowlers, even when they are not taking wickets themselves, help other skilled bowlers take more wickets by softening up the batsmen and creating psychological pressure. Shami is not a hostile bowler and not really the topic of discussion here. Secondly, if a skilled bowler like Bhuvi is in good form, he should play. I don't think anybody is asking him to be replaced by a fast bowler who is not performing. What I am talking about is the support needed for a genuine quick when he is bowling fast, with hostility but bowling a few no balls and sometimes getting hit. That happens a lot during the early years. Dropping them for a match or two is not the issue but rejecting them and discouraging them because of these inevitable side effects is. I don't know how long you have been watching cricket but it has happened a lot with many fast bowlers in India over the years.

[Lord]

We are not talking about faster bowlers here but genuine fast bowlers. Those who can soften batsmen with pace and hostility. These bowlers, even when they are not taking wickets themselves, help other skilled bowlers take more wickets by softening up the batsmen and creating psychological pressure. Shami is not a hostile bowler and not really the topic of discussion here. Secondly, if a skilled bowler like Bhuvi is in good form, he should play. I don't think anybody is asking him to be replaced by a fast bowler who is not performing. What I am talking about is the support needed for a genuine quick when he is bowling fast, with hostility but bowling a few no balls and sometimes getting hit. That happens a lot during the early years. Dropping them for a match or two is not the issue but rejecting them and discouraging them because of these inevitable side effects is. I don't know how long you have been watching cricket but it has happened a lot with many fast bowlers in India over the years.

Happened a lot in India?How many genuine fast bowlers have we produced in first place?Srinath,early Ishant and Munaf,Umesh and Aaron.Maybe you can include Sreesanth too.Except Umesh,all have been backed decently.Sreesanth got hit a lot which is a worry.Munaf and Ishant reduced pace despite not being dropped. If a bowler is creating chances but getting hit sometimes should be backed ofcourse.Now whether he does that pace and hostility or by other skills shouldn't really matter.Skilful bowlers help other bowlers too by keeping tight and not letting go of pressure.it allows others to bowler to go all out without worrying about runs.So its two way. All I am saying that if a bowler is fast but not taking creating chances due to other factors( lack of movement,bounce or decent control)He shouldn't be retained just because hes fast bcoz at Test level just pace rarely works.Its best for both the bowler and team if hes is dropped and told to work on those issues.Ofcourse they need to be kept in radar.

[King Tendulkar]

I'm talking about performance in respect of wickets only. See this series,BK has been taking wickets while Shami wasnt so he was rightly dropped despite him being faster.Pankaj was retained bcoz he created more chances than Shami last match,again being slower. You can't carry non performers irrespective of whether they are fast or not. Varun was poor in NZ,got dropped then worked with Donald in IPL and has looked better bowler since.Dropping a work in progress is not always bad.

What test match did aaron play in NZ? What test match did yadav play in SA?

[King Tendulkar]

Happened a lot in India?How many genuine fast bowlers have we produced in first place?Srinath,early Ishant and Munaf,Umesh and Aaron.Maybe you can include Sreesanth too.Except Umesh,all have been backed decently.Sreesanth got hit a lot which is a worry.Munaf and Ishant reduced pace despite not being dropped. If a bowler is creating chances but getting hit sometimes should be backed ofcourse.Now whether he does that pace and hostility or by other skills shouldn't really matter.Skilful bowlers help other bowlers too by keeping tight and not letting go of pressure.it allows others to bowler to go all out without worrying about runs.So its two way. All I am saying that if a bowler is fast but not taking creating chances due to other factors( lack of movement,bounce or decent control)He shouldn't be retained just because hes fast bcoz at Test level just pace rarely works.Its best for both the bowler and team if hes is dropped and told to work on those issues.Ofcourse they need to be kept in radar.

Lets frigging pick them first and play them before dropping them for under performing. FFS

[Lord]

What test match did aaron play in NZ? What test match did yadav play in SA?

Yadav should be playing no doubt.Aaron did well this season only(was injured b4 that) and now picked.Not exactly too late

[thongale]

You people are justb forgetting bowling dynamics. Three fast bowlers will not make a better bowling unit unless they are like WI of 80s. Even the most threatening new ball attack in the world, SAF has two fast bowler and a one fast medium bowler (called trundler sometimes). You need a fast medium bowler to control the things, and bowl long spells. Then you need a faster bowler or two who will look for wickets. If you have an express one to sofyen batsmen up then it's bonus. India should hav Kumar as their stock bowler. Then you need some one like Ishant who is qucik enough but skillful (al least in theory). Then you have Yadav or Aaron. Playing two bowlers who can become sprayguns is bit too risky, unless you have a world class spinner to back them up. India don't have a Murali or Warne or at least a Kumble currently.

[King Tendulkar]

Yadav should be playing no doubt.Aaron did well this season only(was injured b4 that) and now picked.Not exactly too late

Yadav should have been playing for 3 years non stop. Aaron for last 6 months min Yet you are going on about dropping them all the time. Let them play first FFS

[express bowling]

Happened a lot in India?How many genuine fast bowlers have we produced in first place?Srinath,early Ishant and Munaf,Umesh and Aaron.Maybe you can include Sreesanth too.Except Umesh,all have been backed decently.Sreesanth got hit a lot which is a worry.Munaf and Ishant reduced pace despite not being dropped. If a bowler is creating chances but getting hit sometimes should be backed ofcourse.Now whether he does that pace and hostility or by other skills shouldn't really matter.Skilful bowlers help other bowlers too by keeping tight and not letting go of pressure.it allows others to bowler to go all out without worrying about runs.So its two way. All I am saying that if a bowler is fast but not taking creating chances due to other factors( lack of movement,bounce or decent control)He shouldn't be retained just because hes fast bcoz at Test level just pace rarely works.Its best for both the bowler and team if hes is dropped and told to work on those issues.Ofcourse they need to be kept in radar.

TA Sekhar, Raju Kulkarni, Salil Ankola, Ashish Zaidi, VRV Singh, Pawan Suyal, all these guys had potential to be hostile pacers if backed properly. Now, Umesh and Suyal are getting a raw deal. . Sreesanth wasn't a hostile pacer but a lively paced swing bowler. Also, it is not just international level. Right from club level cricket, pacers here are encouraged to concentrate on just line and length and not worry about pace. I , myself , have been told by lower level coaches to cut down on pace and concentrate just on economy. Finally, as I said, skilled bowlers are required too. I am not talking against them in any way. Nor am I saying that a fast bowler should be played on and on if he is not performing. But they should be encouraged to keep on bowling quick and kept in the scheme of things. They should not be sidelined like Umesh.

[Insidious]

Aakash Chopra @cricketaakash · 3h Imagine if Umesh and Aaron are bowling in tandem for India in a Test match. #wishlist

[Lord]

TA Sekhar, Rat ju Kulkarni, Salil Ankola, Ashish Zaidi, VRV Singh, Pawan Suyal, all these guys had potential to be hostile pacers if backed properly. Now, Umesh is getting a raw deal. Also Suyal. Sreesanth wasn't a hostile pacer but a lively paced swing bowler. Also, it is not just international level. Right from club level cricket, pacers here are encouraged to concentrate on just line and length and not worry about pace. I , myself , have been told by lower level coaches to cut down on pace and concentrate just on economy. Finally, as I said, skilled bowlers are required too. I am not talking against them in any way. Nor am I saying that a fast bowler should be played on and on if he is not performing. But they should be encouraged to keep on bowling quick and kept in the scheme of things. They should not be sidelined like Umesh.

Don't know about older guys but VRV didnt look like a genuine quick to me.More like Shami without the swing.He was hyped up to be fast though,same way we hyped Mithun and Warrier from domestic reports.I remember he went to SA where he was 135 kph at best,consistently slower than Sreesanth. Agree about backing in domestics.Guy like Suyal should be playing A tours consistently. I hope Umesh plays in Aus,both he and Bhuvi were ignored for SA and NZ,but nobody talks about BK being ignored.Zak return messed up things.Bhuvi is playing now thankfully,hopefully Umesh too plays in Aus specially after his perfor,ance on A tour,its likely he will.

[Insidious]

Damien Fleming ‏@bowlologist 3h Great quick bowling by Aaron Pushed Ali back with bouncers then Inswinger in #AaronAvenue Umps fixes stumps 6/172 #BowlologyGold #EngvInd

[Malcolm Merlyn]

Ashish Winston Zaidi was one of the unluckiest bowlers in India.In 1989 he toured Pakistan with India A.And he and Waqar played in same matches as well as Inzy.Zaidi was said to be as fast as Waqar there.Waqar made his debut later that year. In 2000 ICC knockout UV scored 80 odd againist AUS and was asked how did he play Brett Lees pace so well and he said that he had played Zaidi in India and felt they were of a similar pace. Zaidi was quick.

[rkt.india]

Don't know about older guys but VRV didnt look like a genuine quick to me.More like Shami without the swing.He was hyped up to be fast though,same way we hyped Mithun and Warrier from domestic reports.I remember he went to SA where he was 135 kph at best,consistently slower than Sreesanth. Agree about backing in domestics.Guy like Suyal should be playing A tours consistently. I hope Umesh plays in Aus,both he and Bhuvi were ignored for SA and NZ,but nobody talks about BK being ignored.Zak return messed up things.Bhuvi is playing now thankfully,hopefully Umesh too plays in Aus specially after his perfor,ance on A tour,its likely he will.

VRB was certainly quick. Yes, he was pretty raw when he was picked, only knew to bowl as quick as he can. I remember WI series in 2006, he impressed Bishop a lot then in SA, he troubled batsmen with pace and bounce, hitting 140-145k, didnt get many wickets as he lacked consistency. He was really unlucky with injuries. The most injury prone bowler in India.

[Lord]

Fast bowlers in domestic cricket cannot be judged on their stats like this fellow Lord is suggesting. Yong fast bowlers at first class level would most of the time be wayward and hence profligate in terms of runs. Add to this the fact in abnormally high incidence of dropped catches in close cordons. Our domestic cricket as it exists is tailor made to make champion out of mediocrities like Vinay Kumar. Even Rishi Dhawan has better stats than varun in domestic but which fool is going to argue for him over Varun?

Where did I suggest judge pacers by domestic stats.Refer exact quote please

[Lord]

In this very thread. probably you dont have much idea what you are spouting most of the time?

shouldn't be much problem producing the quote then,right?Go ahead

[Lord]

Sure' date=' i'll do the shoveling for your nonsense. move on already. lol[/quote'] Means you can't.Thanks for proving your idiocy yourself :two_thumbs_up:

[Old guy]

Man of this Aaron gets little consistent he will become awesome

[rkt.india]

Man of this Aaron gets little consistent he will become awesome

I will take his bowling in this innings anyday. For now, his aim should be to stay fit and keep improving.

[Lord]

Man of this Aaron gets little consistent he will become awesome

he'll be great in Aus

[CG]

he'll be great in Aus

Thing with genuine fast bowlers is they can be great everywhere .