TMC, Congress raise issue with Modi's visit to temple in Nepal

[Precambrian]

This keeps getting weird. So ow subsidy is not for Indians but for Saudi Arabia. By same logic, Indian govt has long subsidized education of IITians, a large number of whom went and stayed in America. So Indian govt was not subsidizing Indians but Americans..:hysterical: Its a news to me and to all of us - Americans live on Indian subsidy. :giggle:. To hell who says America is a developed country.

Oh dear, :facepalm: Are you serious? Or deliberately acting stupid? 1. IIT is NOT officially a feeder for US of the A. It's not mandatory for IITians to migrate abroad. 2. Majority of IITians still reside in India. 3. Thirdly and most crucially, The guys who migrated are BRINGING IN VALUABLE FOREIGN EXCHANGE, which is extremely essential for a capital starved country like ours\ 4. Hajj amounts expended in Saudi is economically UNPRODUCTIVE expenditure, and is akin to flight of capital from our nation. No, it does not act as an exercise in goodwill or diplomacy either. Jeez. I should apply for teaching primary class students.

[Precambrian]

Sometime back' date=' I came across this ToI report which says that the GoI is considering abolishing the subsidy, as it should be. The subsidy is nothing but mere symbolism. The topic is very widely discussed, at least in Muslim circles. And more often than not, I've seen people have the opinion that it isn't much of a 'subsidy', its just some retrograde marketing by Air India and leaves people with some material to bash Indian Muslims. A Haji has to shell out roughly Rs 1-1.2 lakhs for a Haj pilgrimage through a GoI sponsored package, even after the subsidy. Flying by Air India is a mandatory part of the package. If you choose the package that the GoI offers, you have to stick with AI. If you choose a private travel agency ( Akbar travels for instance, have had great Haj packages) you end up shelling around Rs 80,000 per person. I don't have statistics with me, but I'm the split- would be close to 50:50. Now coming to the subsidy; the 'subsidy' is on the air travel for the Haji. That is, the flight to Jeddah. Air India prices to Jeddah are a few thousand rupees higher than the prices of other airlines flying to Jeddah. However, if you compare the prices of AI to Riyadh, Dubai, Oman etc and the other places in the Middle East during the Haj season, they are below the prices of the competing airlines. So in effect, Air India hikes up the price and offers a subsidy of ~22k per Haji. De facto this is a subsidy of 14-15k Rs. It is more an Air India subsidy. Its Maharaja, and not minority appeasement. And attracted by this subsidy, the Hajis do provide Air India with substantial business during the period of the pilgrimage. The Govt, wins both ways. It can bail out ( or at least try to) the grossly mismanaged Air India. And to the Muslims, it appears as a messiah offering privileges. That these privileges are totally contra Islamic canon which clearly mentions that the Haj is obligatory only to those who can afford the journey and are physically/mentally capable of undertaking the strain, is totally overlooked. There is nothing pious or helpful in the subsidy. Especially, in the last 4-5 years where many more private operators have organized such tours more efficiently. Its just symbolism. And in India symbolism works big time. Instead of addressing issues that they should address, the GoI played these cheap games to garner some Muslim votes.

Yeah, so the gist of the post is, how dare they enrich the state carrier of India at the expense of "poor" Hajj piligrims. FYI some cold statistics: 1. The average subsidy borne by government of India is around 80,000 per pilgrim. Now, about 136,000 people make the pilgrimage every year, translating to at least 1088 crore cost to the exchequer. You might want to argue it creates business for Air India, but you forget that for AI, it's also equally costly, given they have to dedicate flights - with virtually nil return traffic. 2. Where did you get that private operator figure from? http://www.hajindia.com/hajpackagetour.htm That's a private operator, and the package costs from INR 3.61 Lakhs to 4.1 Lakhs. I also did a quick comparison with other packages in the net: http://www.hajjbound.com/listings/category/hajj-2014-in/ The prices are more or less comparable. 3. Each pilgrim opting for the Government route ends up shelling around 120000-150000 which prima facie is less than half of what they need to shell out to private operators, isn't it?

[FischerTal]

Oh dear, :facepalm: Are you serious? Or deliberately acting stupid? 1. IIT is NOT officially a feeder for US of the A. It's not mandatory for IITians to migrate abroad. 2. Majority of IITians still reside in India. 3. Thirdly and most crucially, The guys who migrated are BRINGING IN VALUABLE FOREIGN EXCHANGE, which is extremely essential for a capital starved country like ours 4. Hajj amounts expended in Saudi is economically UNPRODUCTIVE expenditure, and is akin to flight of capital from our nation. No, it does not act as an exercise in goodwill or diplomacy either. Jeez. I should apply for teaching primary class students.

arguing with some AAPians gives a good experience into how our ancestors, the neanderthals, functioned. :two_thumbs_up:

[Precambrian]

arguing with some AAPians gives a good experience into how our ancestors' date=' the neanderthals, functioned. :two_thumbs_up:[/quote'] Neanderthals weren't unintelligent really (possessed bigger cranial capacity than Cro magnons) but didn't have the numbers to make up. To compare Neanderthals to AAPians is a disgrace to the former.

[Crookbond]

That is my interpretation of all the money given to Africa' date=' pakistan, Myanmar and Nepal. You, on the, other hand hallucinated a dog whistle.[/quote'] And my interpretation of your post is dog whistling. Hum kare toh hallucination, aap kare toh interpretation :winky:

[Crookbond]

Sorry sir' date=' [b']it's not given for spending in India or for Indians but to Saudi Arabia. I don't know if you are deliberately ignoring this aspect. And more than that, it's an exercise in diplomacy to strengthen relationship with a close neighbour sharing a same culture, get it?

And like I said, I don't want either - Saudi or Nepal. Deliberately ignoring that post of mine? Some people OTOH, are OK with sharing culture with Nepal with no culture with Saudi. It's an exercise in diplomacy to strengthen relationship with a close neighbour. :dontknow:

[Precambrian]

And like I said' date=' I don't want either - Saudi or Nepal. Deliberately ignoring that post of mine? Some people OTOH, are OK with sharing culture with Nepal with no culture with Saudi. [i']It's an exercise in diplomacy to strengthen relationship with a close neighbour. :dontknow:

Yet I don't think I saw any post decrying the haj subsidies here by you. Maybe I was wrong. I am not of the opinion that these should be promoted. From a strictly personal point of view, I don't think "donations" to religious places of worship by government should be promoted. Modi could've done better by giving an amount to a certain trust - to look after the poor, instead of paying for sandalwood and stuff. Again, if you look at it from a diplomacy perspective, it makes a bit of sense. Nepal is a hindu country - so winning their trust and respect is by associating with their culture and traditions - if you think in that way, and see the donation as a mere diplomatic exercise, it isn't that bad. And I don't know the amounts. 25 cr a bit too much imho. 4 cr? Looks okayish for me.

[seedhi]

And my interpretation of your post is dog whistling. Hum kare toh hallucination' date= aap kare toh interpretation :winky:

But there is absolutely no justification for your interpretation, since I termed all the money given to Africa, Nepal, pakistan and Myanmar as gifts. Where is the dog whistle or any racial angle here ? I did not single out Africa for the special nomenclature.

[Crookbond]

Yet I don't think I saw any post decrying the haj subsidies here by you. Maybe I was wrong. I am not of the opinion that these should be promoted. From a strictly personal point of view, I don't think "donations" to religious places of worship by government should be promoted. Modi could've done better by giving an amount to a certain trust - to look after the poor, instead of paying for sandalwood and stuff. Again, if you look at it from a diplomacy perspective, it makes a bit of sense. Nepal is a hindu country - so winning their trust and respect is by associating with their culture and traditions - if you think in that way, and see the donation as a mere diplomatic exercise, it isn't that bad. And I don't know the amounts. 25 cr a bit too much imho. 4 cr? Looks okayish for me.

Post #108 - I have mentioned the exact same stand as you. That besides, I don't see why would you encourage something which goes against your personal POV. You can't classify be as biased and then do the very same thing, no? I've said earlier - there are much better ways to engage in diplomacy than donations to religious places of worship.

[Crookbond]

But there is absolutely no justification for your interpretation' date= since I termed all the money given to Africa, Nepal, pakistan and Myanmar as gifts. Where is the dog whistle or any racial angle here ? I did not single out Africa for the special nomenclature.

I could say the same, you know.

[Texan]

This keeps getting weird. So ow subsidy is not for Indians but for Saudi Arabia. By same logic, Indian govt has long subsidized education of IITians, a large number of whom went and stayed in America. So Indian govt was not subsidizing Indians but Americans..:hysterical: Its a news to me and to all of us - Americans live on Indian subsidy. :giggle:. To hell who says America is a developed country.

I feel sorry for how you fail to comprehend logic. Are IITs directly paying America? In the case of Haj subsidy, the Indian government is directly paying out money to private businesses in Saudi Arabia along with paying Air India. Do you even get that?

[Texan]

Oh dear, :facepalm: Are you serious? Or deliberately acting stupid? 1. IIT is NOT officially a feeder for US of the A. It's not mandatory for IITians to migrate abroad. 2. Majority of IITians still reside in India. 3. Thirdly and most crucially, The guys who migrated are BRINGING IN VALUABLE FOREIGN EXCHANGE, which is extremely essential for a capital starved country like ours 4. Hajj amounts expended in Saudi is economically UNPRODUCTIVE expenditure, and is akin to flight of capital from our nation. No, it does not act as an exercise in goodwill or diplomacy either. Jeez. I should apply for teaching primary class students.

You are barking up the wrong tree :cantstop: Yes, I tried too, but kept it less verbose.

[Mariyam]

Yeah' date=' so the gist of the post is, how dare they enrich the state carrier of India at the expense of "poor" Hajj piligrims.[/quote'] No, that is what you're assuming the gist of my post to be. The Hajji is still getting a subsidy. And Air India some business. I thought I did ask a very pertinent question in the end. Why didn't the BJP abolish the subsidy when they last formed the government? Harp about it 24x7 and then do nothing about it at all. Must be some kind of neo strain of hyper-nationalism which I'm unaware off. The pilgrims do come back to India after the Hajj in the same airline. :D Also, most of the flights back aren't direct flights to Mumbai but fly to Dubai/Muscat or some other place in Keralian Gulf before flying back home. The figures what you've shared are for 10 day Hajj pilgrimages. The second link mentions a 23 day pilgrimage. Most people who opt for the Hajj cannot afford such a long pilgrimage. The commonly opted package is the 5-6 day pilgrimage. The hotels mentioned in your link seem the exorbitant kind. The common folk would be able to afford something a lot more spartan.

[Mariyam]

If what you are saying is indeed true' date=' then why do around 120,000 people use this subsidy every year? They must be really stupid to use government subsidy and yet pay more money.[/quote'] I wouldn't say stupid, but unaware. It is mainly a racket. The Central Hajj Committee of India assigns a certain number of pilgrims to each area/mosque in a given year. Most of the people applying for the subsidy have to prove their relative lack of affluence to the said committee. The moulvis in most of these designated mosques always talk of the Hajj pilgrimage through the GoI. Be rest assured there are a lot of underhand deals between Air India, the CHC and the local moulvis. Its common knowledge that they get a 'cut' for getting Air India new passengers. The entire system is rotten. The light at the end of the tunnel is that with increasing awareness, people tend to plan their own pilgrimage,and opt for something even cheaper/ cost efficient.

[Precambrian]

No, that is what you're assuming the gist of my post to be. The Hajji is still getting a subsidy. And Air India some business.

Air India is getting business but it still isn't as profitable as you make it out to be. I just checked online - an average Etihad round trip ticket in first week of October to and fro Kochi costs roughly 68K INR - and obviously once the dates are confirmed it's only going northward. Pretty sure the rates offered by AI are much lower than this.

I thought I did ask a very pertinent question in the end. Why didn't the BJP abolish the subsidy when they last formed the government? Harp about it 24x7 and then do nothing about it at all. Must be some kind of neo strain of hyper-nationalism which I'm unaware off.

Honestly I don't know. i was too young back then. I don't remember whether hajj subsidy abolition was an issue back then.

The pilgrims do come back to India after the Hajj in the same airline. :D Also, most of the flights back aren't direct flights to Mumbai but fly to Dubai/Muscat or some other place in Keralian Gulf before flying back home.

Yes they do come back I know, but when? After how many days of idling? What about the revenue lost in the meantime? What about the parking and airport costs?

The figures what you've shared are for 10 day Hajj pilgrimages. The second link mentions a 23 day pilgrimage. Most people who opt for the Hajj cannot afford such a long pilgrimage. The commonly opted package is the 5-6 day pilgrimage. The hotels mentioned in your link seem the exorbitant kind. The common folk would be able to afford something a lot more spartan.

Sorry, wouldn't a typical Hajj last a week? of course travelling from India would need additional 2-3 days, wouldn't it? And the second link is apparently one which is 5 years old! I am sure the exchange rates have changed since then drastically. And regarding accomodation these are on 4 per room basis, I guess. Based on this link, the cost of Hajj in 2013 was 1.78 Lakhs for Green accommodation and 1.48 Lakhs for Azizia accomodation - the airfare included in this amounts to just Rs.28,000. I am pretty sure that Private Operators won't be able to match this figure.

[The Outsider]

you want to bring that to the discussion .. fine. Now we know the agenda' date=' carry on[/quote'] Obviously, we know the agenda. Weren't you the joker who was inquiring about my religion before making a comment to my post? Sorry, if you were not. A lot of right wing loonies here sound the same.

[The Outsider]

Bad trolling. To feed u' date=' Nepali Hindus are not possible/potential terrorists, who could start killing for fun with a hair trigger.[/quote'] Exactly how do terrorists make Nepal a regular conduit in their activities? By mountaineering through Everest to Kanchenjunga?

[The Outsider]

Bhai kis aadmi ko smjha rahe ho tum log. God Forbid but beleive me if someone kills his good friend then also first he will ask the background of killer, if the killer is a howard educated or Ex-IITian then he will say oh mere dost ne hi kutch galat kiya hoga. That is how he is programmed. He has different yardsticks for people depending on their education, wealth, caste and religion.

Not to make this another thread about me, but when have I based me judgment on the bold? And yeah, I have immense respect for education. Sorry, if that makes me a misfit in Modi's jaahalat. Overrode the autocorrect there to appease Mariyam as she did not like it being spelled as jaahiliyat.

[FischerTal]

Obviously' date=' we know the agenda. Weren't you the joker who was inquiring about my religion before making a comment to my post? Sorry, if you were not. A lot of right wing loonies here sound the same.[/quote'] the same holds for commie nutcases like yourself

[FischerTal]

Not to make this another thread about me, but when have I based me judgment on the bold? And yeah, I have immense respect for Marxist education. Sorry, if that makes me a misfit in Modi's jaahalat. Overrode the autocorrect there to appease Mariyam as she did not like it being spelled as jaahiliyat.

fixed