BBC Greatest ODI XI

[sweetaskandy]

Majority of the cricket pundits do not put imran ahead of kapil in odis. That's a fact.

I linked to 20 odd pundits X1s in this thread. 1 picked Dev - a few each picked the others. So please then show which pundits pick Kapil over say Imran or Kallis or the rest. The link is early on, to icc website. Time to put up, mate. :two_thumbs_up:

[sweetaskandy]

check these x1s - all pros/expert opinions. where is Dev? http://www.icc-cricket.com/cricket-world-cup/legend-greatest-xi/19 cycle through them all. Like I said generally only Indians rate Kapil over any of his peers as a AR.

For your benefit - that is c. 20 pundits. 1 picks Dev. :giggle: There is another link too. That time none picked Dev. So which pundits pick him. Please tell us.

[sweetaskandy]

http://www.cricket.com.au/news/four-australians-named-in-greatest-odi-xi-as-voted-by-british-public-bbc-gilchrist-warne-mcgrath-lee/2015-02-10 check out Vaughan's and Dizzy's X1s - again, no Dev. Just me then eh? :hysterical:

Other link. So all these people are wrong and you are right? :giggle: So some evidence now please.

[zen]

For your benefit - that is c. 20 pundits. 1 picks Dev. :giggle: There is another link too. That time none picked Dev. So which pundits pick him. Please tell us.

So you are going over all the 11s to comb out who picked Kapil :hysterical:

[sweetaskandy]

No, they were linked to earlier to show basically no one picks him. As always you guys speak rubbish and then have no evidence when called out by fans who actually know the game. So either show your evidence or accept you have been proven wrong. You guys are 'experts' debating amongst yourselves. :hysterical:

[rkt.india]

Those 4 played together for less than a dozen tests.Gavaskar has more test tons against top quality fast bowling than any other opener.

I am not denying that. Gavaskar is one of the best test opener of all time, but I am just saying that WI wasnt the best team in all of the 70s. Gavaskar debuted in 71. Holding debuted in 75, Garner 77, Marshal in early 80s. WI became a real force in 80s. Cricinfo had produced a statistical article talking about this.

[zen]

No, they were linked to earlier to show basically no one picks him. As always you guys speak rubbish and then have no evidence when called out by fans who actually know the game. So either show your evidence or accept you have been proven wrong. You guys are 'experts' debating amongst yourselves. :hysterical:

Stop embarrassing yourself :cantstop:

[sweetaskandy]

I see you have no arguments or evidence. The quality of debate in India must be special. :cantstop:

[zen]

I see you have no arguments or evidence. The quality of debate in India must be special. :cantstop:

I guess, you must be going to SL forums and saying that since many are not picking Sanga, he is overrated in SL; then you would go to SA forums and say Donald is not picked by many so he is over-rated; to NZ forum and saying Crowe is overrated; and so on .... :hysterical: If you think that quality is not high in India, why spend time on ICF :cantstop: As I said stop embarrassing yourself :P PS I guess sweetaskandy would now be counting votes for Sanga, Donald, etc. :hysterical:

[jonas10]

For your benefit - that is c. 20 pundits. 1 picks Dev. :giggle: There is another link too. That time none picked Dev. So which pundits pick him. Please tell us.

Im an obvious India fan and I agree. Aside from Indians no one is as impressed with Dev. Imran is hugely overrated as well. Kallis is the best ODI allrounder ever. Second best ever after Sobers.

[Muloghonto]

I'd rate guys like Hayden' date=' 10x better than than snail. He scored his runs at an almost same average, yet he destroyed bowling attacks, taking them apart, not taking 2 days to score a selfish hundred.[/quote'] Ah, the myth of the selfish hundred strikes again....there rarely is such a thing, as far as test cricket is concerned. As far as Marty Hayden goes, seeing him against curtly Ambrose on a flat pitch was enough for me to never rate Hayden. McGrath would also have earn him for dinner, so too a guy like akram. Walsh too had a field day with Hayden. He couldn't play two types of deliveries well for an opener at all: the chest high 4th stump or ins inswinger from good length like of which was a staple for the McGrath, Ambrose,etc and fast swinging one's like which alarm could dish out. He ain't fit to open for a real test team ahead of Mark Taylor,never mind the actual great ones. Yes, stroke players like twndulkar Lara, viv were better than kallis or dravid and Steve Waugh. But not because the latter's played with more selfish tuktuk mode. Lesson #1 for a test batsman to not get out. You begin with this as the main goal of test batting. The idea of throwing your wicket away for a few more runs is applicable to so few scenarios that it's largely, a statistical insignificance. The lesser trio is lease because 4th y simply had less shots for the allencompasssing varieties of deliveries. So if you can't be a twndulkar,Lara or sewage, it's not because of selfishness but because they are capable of less shotmakinh and therefore default to a block as failsafe. Every batsman is obligated to try and block a delivery he cannot hit but may threaten his stumps or legs. Even the great ones like tendulkar or Lara do too..

[rtmohanlal]

been quite some time since entered this forum...w.r.t topic..what is Gayle,Kallis,Lee doing in a world eleven of one dayers? I am not an expert in picking world elevens. .but here it seems that the selectors gave more importance to 'the player being a great test player too'.other wise there are some great omissions .Most notably Kapil dev,Bevan,Klusener,Afridi,Saqlain,Dhoni & Jayasurya. Of these Kapil was legendary test all rounder too.I am not sure as to whether he would surely has to be there, but one thing for sure is that OF THE FAB4 from 80s, he was easily the best one day player.Sadly even Indians under rate him so much. Bevan was a brilliant finisher and improviser in one dayers.

[Marut]

I'd rate guys like Hayden' date=' 10x better than than snail. He scored his runs at an almost same average, yet he destroyed bowling attacks, taking them apart, not taking 2 days to score a selfish hundred.[/quote'] I'd rate guys like Sehwag, 10x better than Sachin. He scored his runs at an almost same average, yet he destroyed bowling attacks, taking them apart, not taking a whole day to score a selfish hundred. Sehwag strike rate = 81; Sachin measly 54; Even players like Lara, Ponting and KP were far ahead of Sachin on strike rate. Infact Sehwag/Sachin ratio is much greater that Sachin/Dravid in terms of strike rates. I think it is important to realize that the ability to defend your wicket is the foremost ability for a test batsman, against good bowlers, on good pitches, outside home etc. Strike rate comes only after that. Otherwise Sehwag would be miles ahead of Sachin as a test cricketer.

[rtmohanlal]

How many batsmen other than Richards were capable of playing so many whirlwind knocks like Dev? Those who undermine Kapil's batting have no knowledge of cricket, really! Kapil was perfectly capable of averaging 40-45 in tests with the bat, if only he had been more selfish and played for his averages. Kapil was one of the most naturally talented batsman against pace bowling. Next to Richards, I have never seen a batsman take on sheer pace with such mighty disdain. Dev never feared pace bowlers and could just smash them all day long if he could. No bowling lineup in the world, including the mighty WI pace quartet was safe if Kapil was in mood. He scored a run a ball hundred against them, something even Richards would be proud of. The following is a sample from test matches. 89 off 55 balls at Lords http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63314.html 73 off 53 vs Imran and co at Karachi http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63330.html 59 off 48 vs Imran and co at Karachi http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63219.html 116 off 98 vs England at Kanpur http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63219.html 65 off 55 at Manchester http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63315.html 83 off 74 against Australia at Chennai http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63241.html 100 off 95 balls against Holding, Marshall, Roberts and Garner at Port of Spain (Only Dev was capable of a knock like this in the WI, nobody else could dream of such a knock) http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63336.html 97 off 93 at the Oval http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63316.html 98 off 97 against Holding, Marshall, Roberts and Garner in WI http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63339.html Kapil made 36 such knocks in test cricket at a breath taking speed.

well said...Kapil's test batting is way too under rated.People often just take his bat avg: and neglect other factors like his low batting order,huge str: rate,record vs WI, LONGEVITY,selfless approach, quality of his huge knocks etc etc. In +75 scores in tests, Kapil's str: rate is 96.45 .For Imran it is only around 54.See the difference in level of dominanace.both put almost the same no:of runs/inns. If this was w.r.t to Lara-Sachin comparison, Sachin critics would have gone crazy pointing guns at him.Just because it is Kapil-Imran , no body is taking notice of these factors.

[Marut]

Ah, the myth of the selfish hundred strikes again....there rarely is such a thing, as far as test cricket is concerned. As far as Marty Hayden goes, seeing him against curtly Ambrose on a flat pitch was enough for me to never rate Hayden. McGrath would also have earn him for dinner, so too a guy like akram. Walsh too had a field day with Hayden. He couldn't play two types of deliveries well for an opener at all: the chest high 4th stump or ins inswinger from good length like of which was a staple for the McGrath, Ambrose,etc and fast swinging one's like which alarm could dish out. He ain't fit to open for a real test team ahead of Mark Taylor,never mind the actual great ones. Yes, stroke players like twndulkar Lara, viv were better than kallis or dravid and Steve Waugh. But not because the latter's played with more selfish tuktuk mode. Lesson #1 for a test batsman to not get out. You begin with this as the main goal of test batting. The idea of throwing your wicket away for a few more runs is applicable to so few scenarios that it's largely, a statistical insignificance. The lesser trio is lease because 4th y simply had less shots for the allencompasssing varieties of deliveries. So if you can't be a twndulkar,Lara or sewage, it's not because of selfishness but because they are capable of less shotmakinh and therefore default to a block as failsafe. Every batsman is obligated to try and block a delivery he cannot hit but may threaten his stumps or legs. Even the great ones like tendulkar or Lara do too..

Hayden was a home bully. Hayden averaged 58 at home and 42 away. Dravid averaged 51 at home and 53 away (inspite of playing lot more matches for a lesser team) Hayden and Dravid should not even be invoked in the same sentence, leave alone talks of Hayden being 10X. Unless of course, being a king at home is the gold standard of test match batting.

[rtmohanlal]

More than wastage of talent, Kapil dev got overworked. During a sixteen year career he missed one test (out of 132) and eighteen ODIs (out of 243 ODIs) played by India during his time. Moreover, Kapil usually bowled his full quote of overs in ODIs which wasn't the case with Imran who often did not bowl his full quota and some times never bowled. Compare him to other all rounders of his times: Kapil: 225(243) missed 18 ODIs; 131(132) missed one test; Kapil missed 19 matches in all; Imran Khan: 175 (225) missed 50 ODIs; 88(138) missed 50 tests; Imran missed 100 matches in all; Botham: 116(189) missed 73 ODIs; 102(156) missed 54 tests; Botham missed 127 matches in all; Hadlee: 115(156) missed 41 ODIs; 86(100) missed 14 tests; Hadlee missed 55 matches in all; We can see that Kapil bowled and batted much more than the other three players, only Hadlee coming any where close to him. Imran and Botham were in and out of team very frequently, and particularly Imran picked and chose a lot of matches and thus kept himself very fresh for every match in the 80s. For an all rounder who usually batted and bowled in almost every match India played, Kapil's workload was phenomenal. Anyone who thinks this cannot affect his performance must be a deluded one. In 1984 Kapil Dev badly injured his knee, and lost his pace, and inspite of never fully recovering from this injury he rarely missed matches, whether they be tests or ODIs. But his performance was surely affected. No good support bowlers means Kapil was fighting alone as a bowler in most of the matches. No other good pace bowlers from India meant that he could never take a break from cricket and ended up playing nearly every match India played during his period.

very very valid points.....statistics with out context is meaningless.especially in the case of all rounders. Lot of People just tend to take avg:s alone neglecting support cast,work density and other factors.

[rtmohanlal]

Blaming Kapil's moderate returns on being 'over worked' is just silly. Hadlee was a 1 man army and his returns were amazing. Dev just wasn't as good as Indians make out. I know Marut is going to freak but those who saw him and the evidence as shown to the world shows that he a solid bowler and a slugger with the bat. This refers mainly to ODIs. In tests he was clearly the weakest of the 4 great ARs of his time. His bowling S/R is pathetic for a strike bowler. He averages just a shade under 30 with a SR of about 63.

Marut has stated valid points. your reply in return unfortunately contains only blind emotional statements

[Marut]

well said...Kapil's test batting is way too under rated.People often just take his bat avg: and neglect other factors like his low batting order,huge str: rate,record vs WI, LONGEVITY,selfless approach, quality of his huge knocks etc etc. In +75 scores in tests, Kapil's str: rate is 96.45 .For Imran it is only around 54.See the difference in level of dominanace.both put almost the same no:of runs/inns. If this was w.r.t to Lara-Sachin comparison, Sachin critics would have gone crazy pointing guns at him.Just because it is Kapil-Imran , no body is taking notice of these factors.

Strike rate is not a gold standard to compare test batsmen - Lara's strike rates do not necessarily make him better than tendulkar. But for lower order test batsmen strike rates are important because they can make quick runs before the team is bowled out. Kapil dev with tail can put on 100 runs before the opponent can even realize it. Once he hit 4 successive sixes in England to avoid a follow on. I was hearing the commentary back then. India needed twenty four runs to avoid the follow on and Kapil hit a six. The commentator then said - "Can India avoid follow on? There is only one batsman in the world who can do this ." The next three balls were dispatched over the fence by Dev! Kapil did this without ever exposing the #11 batsman in his own style. His knock in SA was truly unbelievable - and Kapil at this time was in terminal decline, yet he produced that blinder on a difficult batting wicket that yielded low scores. Imran can only dream of playing such a test knock, carrying the team from 6/31 to 10/215 in double quick time, getting 129 runs out of last 175 runs scored by the team. http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63588.html

[MCGGG]

Hayden was a home bully. Hayden averaged 58 at home and 42 away. Dravid averaged 51 at home and 53 away (inspite of playing lot more matches for a lesser team) Hayden and Dravid should not even be invoked in the same sentence, leave alone talks of Hayden being 10X. Unless of course, being a king at home is the gold standard of test match batting.

Hayden did very well India at least for one tour, he was vastly different to Dravid, Haydon dominated attacks as an opener and scored fast, Dravid wore the bowlers down and cashed in, I think Dravid was the better bat overall, but to say they shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence is idiotic.

[govinda]

people calling dravid selfish:WTF: