BBC Greatest ODI XI

[Muloghonto]

@mulo, I proved that false by showing 20 odd expert x1s who ignored him. Keep believing though. :haha:

20 opinions are statistically insignificant. Sent from my GT-S5830D using Tapatalk 2

[Marut]

Still we are discussing Kapil to be in the league of McGrath as ODI bowler? Oh God. The humanity.

I don't know whether you can even directly compare two bowlers who played in teams with very different compositions. McGrath was part of an ATG team with the best batting and bowling lineup. Dev was part of a mediocre team in which he had to shoulder the entire burden of bowling. What would have McGrath done if he had to play half his life on the flat/spin tracks of India, along with support bowlers like Binny, Madanlal, Chetan Sharma, Prabhakar and so on? I am not trying to say that Kapil is better, but often it makes no sense to compare SC pacers with non SC pacers, because they thrive under very different conditions. McGrath is only marginally better than Dev if you consider all the factors.

[Muloghonto]

Kapil is NOWHERE in the league of McGrath in any forms of the game. This is taking things to the extreme.

If anyone thinks dev is not in the same league as mcgrath, pollock, etc as an odi bowler, they didnt watch cricket in the 80s. Pure and simple! Sent from my GT-S5830D using Tapatalk 2

[rtmohanlal]

Agree some what. Taking in account all factors which include 1. Kapil dev bowling on batsmen friendly wickets without decent support bowlers. 2. Dev getting overloaded due to not missing matches. 3. Dev not doing ball tampering. 4. Dev's exceptional performance against WI and Aus. 5. Dev's legendary match transforming skills due to legendary strike rates. Imran would be significantly ahead of Dev as a test bowler when compared without these factors. But when we take into account these factors, Imran is only marginally ahead as a test bowler and test all rounder. Imran saved himself for the tough matches by skipping a lot of matches while Kapil never took any rest whatsoever. To those think this factor does not matter should listen to what Holding says - http://www.thatscricket.com/news/2011/08/29/test-cricket-could-become-insignificant-holding.html Kapil was doing what exactly Holding says would destroy pace bowlers. In the 80s, no pace bowler came close to matching Dev on the number of matches played or overs bowled. Kapil dev sent down 4011 overs in the 80s, tests and odis combined. Imran sent down 2857 overs in the 80s, tests and odis combined. Botham sent down 3335 overs in the 80s, tests and odis combined. Hadlee sent down 3114 overs in the 80s, tests and odis combined. It can be seen that Dev bowled 20% more than Botham, 40% more than Imran, 29% more than Hadlee. It makes sense why Imran and Hadlee were statistically better than Botham and Dev - they played far less cricket and were able to perform at their peak most of the time. Dev in particular was a workhorse, and he had to do all this without decent support bowlers on the other end. When one bowler bowls 40% more than another, it is just unfair to compare them just on the basis of stats. Imran was one lucky guy, being able to bowl whenever he wanted and then take off days whenever he pleased.

another point is w.r.t the extend of advantage Imran got from ball tampering. It is not that small as you feel... I suppose.this is because of these factors. if we go thru the series wise record of Imran , his avg:s in every series was very mediocre till 1981 baring 1 0r 2 series. And his overall avg: too was way below 27.After that it took a dramatic boom in every series he played in.Infact he started to avg: around 15 in next 6 to 7 years. and his confession of having tampered in a county match too was about this time.You said of Prabhakar being not that successful despite tampering. but then Prabhakar was only medium pacer.On the other hand genuine pace bowlers benefit immensely from tampering.best eg: is that 83 Pak series of India where IMRAN picked 40 wkts. Kapil too bowled well and picked 24 wkts at 32+ apiece. but Imran's was 14+avg: .note the huge gap.another matter is , if we go thru the history of pace bowling there are several genuine pace bowlers who matched Imran for sheer pace but were very good at best.i can name a dozen now itself.Srinath, Chetan Sharma,Lee,Sami,Patterson,Thompson,Akhtar,Rose, Davis,Mcdermott ,Dilley,Olonga etc etc.all these names under line the fact that sheer pace is a double edged sword.If there is no control , it can be very disadvantageous too. what Imran could achieve is great control to his genuine speed by tampering.I still remember Maninder singh who played in that 83 series saying during a channel chat that the amount of swing Imran getting was unreal .So on those pucca flat pitches of PAKISTAN were he would have gone for lot of runs despite picking lesser amount of wkts he achieved 40 @ 14 apiece.we can easily assume that this was the story in his lot of series till mutli camera days became the norm.

[Gambit]

Kapil v/s Gillespie is a more valid comparison than Kapil v/s McGrath in ODIs. McGrath is light years ahead.

[putrevus]

If I am picking side today first player I pick is Kapil Dev, this notion that all sundries like Jayasurya , flintoffs were better than him is ridiculous. This nonsense of people quoting his batting average being low have no idea what the heck they are talking about.His average was more than par for batsmen batting at his position at that time. David Gower who was one of better Odi batsmen in his era averaged 30. It is like saying FTB Samaraveera is better than great Gordon Greenidge because he averages more, Samaraveera does not even belong in the same sentence as Gordon. Viv Richards only scored 11 hundreds but he was voted greatest Odi player for a reason.

[Marut]

another point is w.r.t the extend of advantage Imran got from ball tampering. It is not that small as you feel... I suppose.this is because of these factors. if we go thru the series wise record of Imran ' date=' his avg:s in every series was very mediocre till 1981 baring 1 0r 2 series. And his overall avg: too was way below 27.After that it took a dramatic boom in every series he played in.Infact he started to avg: around 15 in next 6 to 7 years. and his confession of having tampered in a county match too was about this time.You said of Prabhakar being not that successful despite tampering. but then Prabhakar was only medium pacer.On the other hand genuine pace bowlers benefit immensely from tampering.best eg: is that 83 Pak series of India where IMRAN picked 40 wkts. Kapil too bowled well and picked 24 wkts at 32+ apiece. but Imran's was 14+avg: .note the huge gap.another matter is , if we go thru the history of pace bowling there are several genuine pace bowlers who matched Imran for sheer pace but were very good at best.i can name a dozen now itself.Srinath, Chetan Sharma,Lee,Sami,Patterson,Thompson,Akhtar,Rose, Davis,Mcdermott ,Dilley,Olonga etc etc.all these names under line the fact that sheer pace is a double edged sword.If there is no control , it can be very disadvantageous too. what Imran could achieve is great control to his genuine speed by tampering.I still remember Maninder singh who played in that 83 series saying during a channel chat that the amount of swing Imran getting was unreal .So on those pucca flat pitches of PAKISTAN were he would have gone for lot of runs despite picking lesser amount of wkts he achieved 40 @ 14 apiece.we can easily assume that this was the story in his lot of series till mutli camera days became the norm.[/quote'] Can you split your write up into paragraphs? This is very difficult to read.

[rtmohanlal]

Honest question for Indians: Why does the bulk of expert opinion regard Imran and Botham (and Kallis now) as far better than Dev?

Hope you would have got a lot of valid points as answer to your question by now. Botham better to Kapil is an English cricket hype. they just did not give much importance to any thing other than ashes those days. one dayers were a nothing matter to them.Even by records Botham was a pale shadow of himself in WI the then best team in tests.more over his over all avg: is boosted by performace vs India the then bowling wise last team. Kapil was clearly the superior in one dayers to Botham in every sense.Neither was Botham a good captain. Only Imran holds a candle to Kapil and a lot of subsequent points here in this forum shows there was nothing much to separate them either way

[Marut]

If I am picking side today first player I pick is Kapil Dev, this notion that all sundries like Jayasurya , flintoffs were better than him is ridiculous. This nonsense of people quoting his batting average being low have no idea what the heck they are talking about.His average was more than par for batsmen batting at his position at that time. David Gower who was one of better Odi batsmen in his era averaged 30. It is like saying FTB Samaraveera is better than great Gordon Greenidge because he averages more, Samaraveera does not even belong in the same sentence as Gordon. Viv Richards only scored 11 hundreds but he was voted greatest Odi player for a reason.

Strange that they bring in Afridi's averages for comparison with Kapil. As if the averages of the 80s and noughties have the same weightage. Afridi is complete hack as a batsman, which is why he did not take to test cricket and dropped out within the first few years. Kapil's ODI batting average is not high, but we know that he a class test batsman because he averaged 31 in the era of bowlers with a S/R of 81 - something equivalent to average of 40 and S/R of 120 in tests today. That is one hell of a batsman by today's standards. In ODIs, Kapil played way too fast and often lost his wickets to loose deliveries - he had the potential to average 30 with a S/R of 80 in that era (which would have made him a bigger match winner with the bat), but Kapil sacrificed the amount of runs for the scoring rate. Something like Sehwag. I think very few guys here realize the true implication of a S/R of 95 in the 80s. They think he was Afridi like by comparing the averages of different eras.:haha:

[Marut]

another point is w.r.t the extend of advantage Imran got from ball tampering. It is not that small as you feel... I suppose.this is because of these factors. if we go thru the series wise record of Imran ' date=' his avg:s in every series was very mediocre till 1981 baring 1 0r 2 series. And his overall avg: too was way below 27.After that it took a dramatic boom in every series he played in.Infact he started to avg: around 15 in next 6 to 7 years. and his confession of having tampered in a county match too was about this time.You said of Prabhakar being not that successful despite tampering. but then Prabhakar was only medium pacer.On the other hand genuine pace bowlers benefit immensely from tampering.best eg: is that 83 Pak series of India where IMRAN picked 40 wkts. Kapil too bowled well and picked 24 wkts at 32+ apiece. but Imran's was 14+avg: .note the huge gap.another matter is , if we go thru the history of pace bowling there are several genuine pace bowlers who matched Imran for sheer pace but were very good at best.i can name a dozen now itself.Srinath, Chetan Sharma,Lee,Sami,Patterson,Thompson,Akhtar,Rose, Davis,Mcdermott ,Dilley,Olonga etc etc.all these names under line the fact that sheer pace is a double edged sword.If there is no control , it can be very disadvantageous too. what Imran could achieve is great control to his genuine speed by tampering.I still remember Maninder singh who played in that 83 series saying during a channel chat that the amount of swing Imran getting was unreal .So on those pucca flat pitches of PAKISTAN were he would have gone for lot of runs despite picking lesser amount of wkts he achieved 40 @ 14 apiece.we can easily assume that this was the story in his lot of series till mutli camera days became the norm.[/quote'] The 82 series was not just about ball tampering. It was also about blatantly biased umpiring - one of the worst ever umpiring ever. When you see that three Pakistani batsmen (two of them weren't batting greats by any stretch of imagination) averaged around 125 each in a six test series (never happened any other time in history), umpiring bias must be obvious. As an example, check out the number of dismissals to LBWs for India and Pakistan in that series. Pakistan routinely got three LBW dismissals in every completed Indian innings while India rarely got any LBW in their favour, and in the rare instance they got an LBW it was against a tailender or against a batsman who had made mountains of runs and thrown India out of the game. Indian batsmen had to play so carefully as to not let the ball hit the pad, for an LBW would be given with closed eyes. Pakistani batsmen could afford to use their pads as an extra bat and never worry about an LBW. It was a notorious and controversial series. Most of the Pakistani batsmen created record after record in that series. Kapil bowled his heart out in that series taking a lot of five wicket hauls, but he was "out-umpired"!!

[thongale]

Why does people take Test performances in to ODI XI? @Mugalhonto: Saying Kapil was a better AR than Pollock, Flintoff or Klusener is just Lol. And don't jump on the gun thinking that you are the only one who has seen lot of cricket. You may be demented now and may not be recalling things properly.

[Muloghonto]

Why does people take Test performances in to ODI XI? @Mugalhonto: Saying Kapil was a better AR than Pollock, Flintoff or Klusener is just Lol. And don't jump on the gun thinking that you are the only one who has seen lot of cricket. You may be demented now and may not be recalling things properly.

In odis he definitely was a better ar than all those three. Flintoff is kust...lol Sent from my GT-S5830D using Tapatalk 2

[thongale]

In odis he definitely was a better ar than all those three. Flintoff is kust...lol Sent from my GT-S5830D using Tapatalk 2

Kapil better than Pollock / Klusener:hysterical: I give up.

[MCGGG]

In odis he definitely was a better ar than all those three. Flintoff is kust...lol Sent from my GT-S5830D using Tapatalk 2

You want to have man sex with Kapil don't you?

[gazza]

Kapil was a very good all rounder, I may rate imran and even possibly botham ahead of him in test matches but in ODIs there aren't many all rounders better than kapil. Don't quite rate him with McGrath as a bowler but he was still a very very good ODI pacer and as others have pointed out with his batting, for that era and his role he was doing very very well. If your comparing players across era's you have to take certain things into account, it's not a like for like comparison with all aspects. As far as ODI all rounders kapil and klusener are probably the top 2, pollock not far behind, even shakib as a spin option is not a bad choice.

[Raghav_12]

My position on couple of points being discussed here. 1. McGrath has been far superior bowler than Kapil both in test and ODIs 2. In tests, Kapil probably wouldn't be counted in top all-rounders because of his bowling numbers are not really goof enough and he didn't make his batting talent count. 3. In ODI's, I would put him right in the top bracket as all-rounder. Definitely ahead of Imran Khan. I probably would pick him for the all-rounder slot in all time ODI XI.

[MCGGG]

Kapil was a very good all rounder, I may rate imran and even possibly botham ahead of him in test matches but in ODIs there aren't many all rounders better than kapil. Don't quite rate him with McGrath as a bowler but he was still a very very good ODI pacer and as others have pointed out with his batting, for that era and his role he was doing very very well. If your comparing players across era's you have to take certain things into account, it's not a like for like comparison with all aspects. As far as ODI all rounders kapil and klusener are probably the top 2, pollock not far behind, even shakib as a spin option is not a bad choice.

The current crop of all rounders will go down as the best to date IMO, look at guys like Faulkner, averaging around 50 with a SR above 110, good bowling record as well, thanks to T20 cricket these are the new breed of allrounder.

[gazza]

The current crop of all rounders will go down as the best to date IMO' date=' look at guys like Faulkner, averaging around 50 with a SR above 110, good bowling record as well, thanks to T20 cricket these are the new breed of allrounder.[/quote'] Yep Faulkner has done terrifically to-date, match winner with the bat, capable of 5fers with the ball.

[Marut]

The current crop of all rounders will go down as the best to date IMO' date=' look at guys like Faulkner, [b']averaging around 50 with a SR above 110, good bowling record as well, thanks to T20 cricket these are the new breed of allrounder.

Wow, he must be better than Richards then.

[MCGGG]

Wow' date=' he must be better than Richards then.[/quote'] If he keeps those numbers up he'll make Richards look like a park player.