BBC Greatest ODI XI

[sensible-indian]

The more I hear about Kapil, the more angry and sad I get at him for wasting his talent. Someone like Imran (who wasn't that talented to start with) reinvented himself and went on to do great stuff. Kapil with all the talent in batting and bowling didn't do it. I heard a neutral say if Kapil truly realized his talent, he would have been a bigger deal than SRT in today's era. I wasn't sure about that but now it looks like his statement is true. Looking at everything in the last 1 year (by the way my Dad raves about him), its clear that Kapil wasted his talent to be just a good player when he could have been all time super duper great player.

[Muloghonto]

You are talking about that 0.4 difference but underplaying difference in s average and SR. You are saying they are high because McGrath played in an era where batsmen took more risks. It means batsmen were more aggressive. If that is the case, than ER would be higher even for Ambrose if he had played in that era. Ambrose retired in 2000, so, he did not play in the are of 300s. They played 6 years together and in those 6 years, Ambrose had 77 wickets in 77 matches at an average of 30, ER of 3.48, which shows he declined in that period. While McGrath averaged 23 in the same period, but his average and ER both got better with age even if batsmen were more aggressive, more high scores were scored, still his average and ER both got better even when he aged. It also tells you that Mcgrath was consistent throughout his career despite playing in both eras of 90s and 2000s.

In odis economy rate is the most important bowling statistic. Your bowlers have done a better job if they've restricted the opposition to 220/6 than 250 all-out. In the latter scorecard, bowling unit will have better average and strike rate but better economy in the former scorecard. Ambrose was hands down the premier containment bowler in odis of his generation. Pollock was a better economical bowler than McGrath. Given that McGrath was not a strike bowler in odis, I'd rather have Ambrose in my team than McGrath. But given that kapil, wasim, murali and warne were all economy kings, the team needs an all-out strike bowler than a containment bowler.so no to McGrath for me. Even a 37 year old faded Ambrose was a better containment bowler than McGrath at his peak.

[rkt.india]

In odis economy rate is the most important bowling statistic. Your bowlers have done a better job if they've restricted the opposition to 220/6 than 250 all-out. In the latter scorecard, bowling unit will have better average and strike rate but better economy in the former scorecard. Ambrose was hands down the premier containment bowler in odis of his generation. Pollock was a better economical bowler than McGrath. Given that McGrath was not a strike bowler in odis, I'd rather have Ambrose in my team than McGrath. But given that kapil, wasim, murali and warne were all economy kings, the team needs an all-out strike bowler than a containment bowler.so no to McGrath for me. Even a 37 year old faded Ambrose was a better containment bowler than McGrath at his peak.

McGrath wasn't a strike bowler. Are you alright McGrath was in top 3 wicket takers in 3 consecutive world cups. He wasn't just a containment bowler. He used to do both jobs together. mcgrath had one of the best strike rate. Murali, warne, Pollock all have worse average, SR, ER than McGrath.

[Gunner]

Just because Mcgrath was consistently frugal doesn't mean he was a 'containment' bowler. The reason why he's regarded as the greatest pacer my many and found enormous success in all conditions is because he had mastered the two fundamental and generally contradictory aspects of bowling - giving away the least amount of runs possible and having an aggressive mindset constantly looking to take wickets. To me, he is the greatest matchwinner of all time.

[Muloghonto]

McGrath wasn't a strike bowler. Are you alright McGrath was in top 3 wicket takers in 3 consecutive world cups. He wasn't just a containment bowler. He used to do both jobs together. mcgrath had one of the best strike rate. Murali' date=' warne, Pollock all have worse average, SR, ER than McGrath.[/quote'] So when a bowler bowls 4th stump line, gets a wicket with a ball a batsman could leave easily but tries to hit it, coz it's the 49th over, you mean to say he is a 'strike bowler ' ? Loo, I got no time for kids who just look at numbers without understanding of them or looking at actual matches. McGrath was a slightly slower, less bouncy clone of courtly Ambrose. Both bona fide containers. Any bowler who bowls 4th stump all day in odis with a 7-2 offside field and one slip,while getting enough bounce from short of good length to pass over the stump by a foot is, by definition, bowling the ultimate fast bowlers containment line and length. He is not looking to take a ticket without batsmen making mistakes. Why does McGrath have such a good strike rate? Because batsmen were forced to take him on more than other containment bowlers. Malik, you could afford to play out. 40 non Malik India overs were easy to deal with. Ambrose you could still play out because it was him and Walsh and then nobody for bulk of career. That's 30 easy wi overs. Less but with their batting s wonkier so I mattered less. McGrath had the luxury of playing in the best out bowling lineup of his time and compounded with one of th top two batting lineups in our at the same Time.

[bulbul]

^ You missed match just to type this :omg:

[rkt.india]

So when a bowler bowls 4th stump line, gets a wicket with a ball a batsman could leave easily but tries to hit it, coz it's the 49th over, you mean to say he is a 'strike bowler ' ? Loo, I got no time for kids who just look at numbers without understanding of them or looking at actual matches. McGrath was a slightly slower, less bouncy clone of courtly Ambrose. Both bona fide containers. Any bowler who bowls 4th stump all day in odis with a 7-2 offside field and one slip,while getting enough bounce from short of good length to pass over the stump by a foot is, by definition, bowling the ultimate fast bowlers containment line and length. He is not looking to take a ticket without batsmen making mistakes. Why does McGrath have such a good strike rate? Because batsmen were forced to take him on more than other containment bowlers. Malik, you could afford to play out. 40 non Malik India overs were easy to deal with. Ambrose you could still play out because it was him and Walsh and then nobody for bulk of career. That's 30 easy wi overs. Less but with their batting s wonkier so I mattered less. McGrath had the luxury of playing in the best out bowling lineup of his time and compounded with one of th top two batting lineups in our at the same Time.

That was a top bowling lineup because it had Mcgrath.

[Marut]

The more I hear about Kapil, the more angry and sad I get at him for wasting his talent. Someone like Imran (who wasn't that talented to start with) reinvented himself and went on to do great stuff. Kapil with all the talent in batting and bowling didn't do it. I heard a neutral say if Kapil truly realized his talent, he would have been a bigger deal than SRT in today's era. I wasn't sure about that but now it looks like his statement is true. Looking at everything in the last 1 year (by the way my Dad raves about him), its clear that Kapil wasted his talent to be just a good player when he could have been all time super duper great player.

More than wastage of talent, Kapil dev got overworked. During a sixteen year career he missed one test (out of 132) and eighteen ODIs (out of 243 ODIs) played by India during his time. Moreover, Kapil usually bowled his full quote of overs in ODIs which wasn't the case with Imran who often did not bowl his full quota and some times never bowled. Compare him to other all rounders of his times: Kapil: 225(243) missed 18 ODIs; 131(132) missed one test; Kapil missed 19 matches in all; Imran Khan: 175 (225) missed 50 ODIs; 88(138) missed 50 tests; Imran missed 100 matches in all; Botham: 116(189) missed 73 ODIs; 102(156) missed 54 tests; Botham missed 127 matches in all; Hadlee: 115(156) missed 41 ODIs; 86(100) missed 14 tests; Hadlee missed 55 matches in all; We can see that Kapil bowled and batted much more than the other three players, only Hadlee coming any where close to him. Imran and Botham were in and out of team very frequently, and particularly Imran picked and chose a lot of matches and thus kept himself very fresh for every match in the 80s. For an all rounder who usually batted and bowled in almost every match India played, Kapil's workload was phenomenal. Anyone who thinks this cannot affect his performance must be a deluded one. In 1984 Kapil Dev badly injured his knee, and lost his pace, and inspite of never fully recovering from this injury he rarely missed matches, whether they be tests or ODIs. But his performance was surely affected. No good support bowlers means Kapil was fighting alone as a bowler in most of the matches. No other good pace bowlers from India meant that he could never take a break from cricket and ended up playing nearly every match India played during his period.

[sensible-indian]

More than wastage of talent, Kapil dev got overworked. During a sixteen year career he missed one test (out of 132) and eighteen ODIs (out of 243 ODIs) played by India during his time. Moreover, Kapil usually bowled his full quote of overs in ODIs which wasn't the case with Imran who often did not bowl his full quota and some times never bowled. Compare him to other all rounders of his times: Kapil: 225(243) missed 18 ODIs; 131(132) missed one test; Kapil missed 19 matches in all; Imran Khan: 175 (225) missed 50 ODIs; 88(138) missed 50 tests; Imran missed 100 matches in all; Botham: 116(189) missed 73 ODIs; 102(156) missed 54 tests; Botham missed 127 matches in all; Hadlee: 115(156) missed 41 ODIs; 86(100) missed 14 tests; Hadlee missed 55 matches in all; We can see that Kapil bowled and batted much more than the other three players, only Hadlee coming any where close to him. Imran and Botham were in and out of team very frequently, and particularly Imran picked and chose a lot of matches and thus kept himself very fresh for every match in the 80s. For an all rounder who usually batted and bowled in almost every match India played, Kapil's workload was phenomenal. Anyone who thinks this cannot affect his performance must be a deluded one. In 1984 Kapil Dev badly injured his knee, and lost his pace, and inspite of never fully recovering from this injury he rarely missed matches, whether they be tests or ODIs. But his performance was surely affected. No good support bowlers means Kapil was fighting alone as a bowler in most of the matches. No other good pace bowlers from India meant that he could never take a break from cricket and ended up playing nearly every match India played during his period.

I agree bro. But still.... It can't explain away why he averages just 23 as batman in ODIs, 30s in Tests and why he averaged nearly 30 in England as bowler. Fact is Kapil massively underachieved. If his stats were league below ATG we could say he was an ATG but got his stats spoiled due to others. But that's not the case. Also Kapil doesn't look to me as someone who had a great analytical brain which could have made him reach the skies in international cricket. Good cricketing acumen. Sure. Great analytical brain. Don't think so.

[Scarves]

That was a top bowling lineup because it had Mcgrath.

Basically this. McGrath made the attack scary as heck when Warne quit ODIs

[govinda]

kapil is underachier

[putrevus]

I am really amazed by some silly people who are questioning greatness of Glenn Mcgrath, this guy made that Aussie attack great not the other way around. This guy was an assassin when it came to taking top order wickets, he must be one of top bowlers who has taken top order wickets.He had the audacity to challenge top batsmen of many teams and skill to back it up on the field. If what Mcgrath did was so easy many would have done it. It takes special bowler with special talent.

[sweetaskandy]

Must add that the best way to stop a team scoring is to take wickets. Low economy but no wkts leaves the team batting in a position to make up differences by expansive play later. Get batsmen back in the shed! In the 1980s and 1990s ODI scoring was slower and batsman less aggressive. Thus ER were lower and SR higher respectively. But wkt taking bowlers are always the best options.

[Guldozer]

I agree bro. But still.... It can't explain away why he averages just 23 as batman in ODIs, 30s in Tests and why he averaged nearly 30 in England as bowler. Fact is Kapil massively underachieved. If his stats were league below ATG we could say he was an ATG but got his stats spoiled due to others. But that's not the case. Also Kapil doesn't look to me as someone who had a great analytical brain which could have made him reach the skies in international cricket. Good cricketing acumen. Sure. Great analytical brain. Don't think so.

Players like Afridi also massively underachieved. But that doesn't mean we can assume him to be better than the likes of Imran. In fact, most people on this forum don't even give him credit where it's due.

[sweetaskandy]

As an ODI batsman Afridi did more than Dev. Same ave over more games, more tons, more 50's. Dev was a pinch hitter in ODIs. His returns against 4 of the best sides as a batsman are crap as shown in this thread. Indians are too patriotic, just pick their own players. Truth is before 2000 India were a very mediocre side more or less.

[Scarves]

India of 2000. Oh god Chopra, Mohanty, Robin Singh, Joshi. Oh god.

[Marut]

I agree bro. But still.... It can't explain away why he averages just 23 as batman in ODIs, 30s in Tests and why he averaged nearly 30 in England as bowler. Fact is Kapil massively underachieved. If his stats were league below ATG we could say he was an ATG but got his stats spoiled due to others. But that's not the case. Also Kapil doesn't look to me as someone who had a great analytical brain which could have made him reach the skies in international cricket. Good cricketing acumen. Sure. Great analytical brain. Don't think so.

23 average at a S/R of 95 was pretty good for the 80s. Think of it as modern equivalent of 30 average at a S/R of 125. Do you find any player this good at #7 these days? His batting was far more impactful than Imran, Botham and Hadlee due to his killer strike rates. The opponent had no chance of winning without dismissing Kapil, he was that kind of player. Average of 31 @ S/R of 81 was pretty brilliant for tests. This was the era when there were only a handful of batsmen with 50+ averages. So 31@81 is brilliant for a #7 all rounder batsman. He averaged 30+ in England as a bowler, but he averaged 23 in the WI and 24 in Australia, both much better teams compared to England. He averaged 26 with the ball at home, not sure why this is not comparable to an average of 22-23 on bowler friendly conditions.

[MCGGG]

23 average at a S/R of 95 was pretty good for the 80s. Think of it as modern equivalent of 30 average at a S/R of 125. Do you find any player this good at #7 these days? His batting was far more impactful than Imran, Botham and Hadlee due to his killer strike rates. The opponent had no chance of winning without dismissing Kapil, he was that kind of player. Average of 31 @ S/R of 81 was pretty brilliant for tests. This was the era when there were only a handful of batsmen with 50+ averages. So 31@81 is brilliant for a #7 all rounder batsman. He averaged 30+ in England as a bowler, but he averaged 23 in the WI and 24 in Australia, both much better teams compared to England. He averaged 26 with the ball at home, not sure why this is not comparable to an average of 22-23 on bowler friendly conditions.

Most of his strike rate was achieved on postage stamp sized Indian grounds, you'll find his strike went to **** when in Australia-England, massively overrated cricketer.

[Marut]

Most of his strike rate was achieved on postage stamp sized Indian grounds' date=' you'll find his strike went to **** when in Australia-England, massively overrated cricketer.[/quote'] Rubbish. May be Australia has the smallest postage stamp sized grounds perhaps? Kapil strike rates in various countries: (ODIs) Australia 92.67 England 107.01 India 98.89 NZ 84.98 Pakistan 112.94 SA 72.86 UAE 89.5 WI 104.06 His strike rates are on the lower side (by his lofty standards) only against SA, whom he played at the end of his career. Kapil test strike rates in various countries: Wi 91.4 Eng 85.27 SL 80.71 Pak 77.39 Aus 77.39 NZ 71.37 SA 65.37 Mind you these are his test batting strike rates in the 80s, most ODI batsmen did not have such strike rates during his time. Kapil was far more destructive than Viv Richards who had a career strike rate of 69 compared to Kapil's 81.

[sweetaskandy]

Blaming Kapil's moderate returns on being 'over worked' is just silly. Hadlee was a 1 man army and his returns were amazing. Dev just wasn't as good as Indians make out. I know Marut is going to freak but those who saw him and the evidence as shown to the world shows that he a solid bowler and a slugger with the bat. This refers mainly to ODIs. In tests he was clearly the weakest of the 4 great ARs of his time. His bowling S/R is pathetic for a strike bowler. He averages just a shade under 30 with a SR of about 63.