Vijy Posted August 24, 2015 Posted August 24, 2015 Middle order batsmen also tend to have higher strike rates. Dravid's strike rate when he was keeping was pretty low by modern standards. In 2002 it was 76 In 2003 it was an abysmal 64 In 2004 it slightly improved to 72 but his average dropped to 33. All above stats as WK. Overall SR as WK (72.6) is higher than career SR (71.2) for Dravid; moreover, likes of Bevan (74.2), etc have had such SR. "Modern standards" today and in the late 90s - early 2000s are not identical. Doesn't matter anyway whether you or I regd Dravid as a good/average keeper-batsman - statistically, he was better than the likes of MSK Prasad, Dighe, Patel, and all the gazillion Indian keepers that played in this era, before the advent of MSD.
gakgupta Posted August 25, 2015 Author Posted August 25, 2015 He will diminish like Irfan Pathan did. Expecting too much from someone is not good. Making Irfan bat constantly up the order reflected on his bowling. In a similar way' date=' it will affect Rahul's batting. So he should be treated as back up for emergency situations no more than that.[/quote'] Well, you have taken a case-study where experiment failed. How about a positive ones? There was a guy called viru who never opened in Test matches at any level in his life. But sehwag was made to open and rest is history. I have never seen gavaskar in action. so for me, sehwag is the best test opener for India......also arguably best opener in his era One more case study?? MSD never been a captain at any level. But, he was made captain and rest is history... Only one way to know, if KL Rahul experiment will work or not.....Just try it out He has not cemented his place. Once Dhawan and Vijay comes back, he will be warming the bench. Instead of that, he should be given this chance....
rkt.india Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 Rahul was a wk at U19 level, so, he isn't a partitmer. He is like ABDV who played mostly as batsman for his team despite also being a wicketkeeper.
India-KXIP fan Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 Well, you have taken a case-study where experiment failed. How about a positive ones? There was a guy called viru who never opened in Test matches at any level in his life. But sehwag was made to open and rest is history. I have never seen gavaskar in action. so for me, sehwag is the best test opener for India......also arguably best opener in his era One more case study?? MSD never been a captain at any level. But, he was made captain and rest is history... Only one way to know, if KL Rahul experiment will work or not.....Just try it out He has not cemented his place. Once Dhawan and Vijay comes back, he will be warming the bench. Instead of that, he should be given this chance.... You would think the keeper would be really tired after concentrating the hardest on the field for 2 days, watching every ball the closest, then opening the batting. Would result in lesser returns I think he would need mental break and bat lower for more chance of longer innings.
Precambrian Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 Overall SR as WK (72.6) is higher than career SR (71.2) for Dravid; moreover, likes of Bevan (74.2), etc have had such SR. "Modern standards" today and in the late 90s - early 2000s are not identical. Doesn't matter anyway whether you or I regd Dravid as a good/average keeper-batsman - statistically, he was better than the likes of MSK Prasad, Dighe, Patel, and all the gazillion Indian keepers that played in this era, before the advent of MSD. Bevan played all his cricket in 90s and just for two-three years in 2000s. Dravid's overall SR being stuck in the early 70s despite playing into the 2010s show his I still believe someone like Parthvi could've done justice if he was groomed properly. Dravid was used as stop gap, served the purpose and stuck with. Thank god for Mahendra Singh Dhoni.
rkt.india Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 Bevan played all his cricket in 90s and just for two-three years in 2000s. Dravid's overall SR being stuck in the early 70s despite playing into the 2010s show his I still believe someone like Parthvi could've done justice if he was groomed properly. Dravid was used as stop gap, served the purpose and stuck with. Thank god for Mahendra Singh Dhoni. To put things into perspective, Ganguly had an SR of 73.
Vijy Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 Bevan played all his cricket in 90s and just for two-three years in 2000s. Dravid's overall SR being stuck in the early 70s despite playing into the 2010s show his I still believe someone like Parthvi could've done justice if he was groomed properly. Dravid was used as stop gap, served the purpose and stuck with. Thank god for Mahendra Singh Dhoni. But Dravid's years as keeper coincided with the years when Bevan was playing.. I'm sure their SRs are not that vastly different.
Marut Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 Bevan played all his cricket in 90s and just for two-three years in 2000s. Dravid's overall SR being stuck in the early 70s despite playing into the 2010s show his I still believe someone like Parthvi could've done justice if he was groomed properly. Dravid was used as stop gap, served the purpose and stuck with. Thank god for Mahendra Singh Dhoni. S/R of some premier batsmen who played between 1997-2011. Ganguly 74 Sanga 75 Yousuf 75 Inzamam 74 S.Fleming 71 G.Kirsten 72 Bell 73 S/R in the low-mid 70s became outdated only after 2010. Anchor role was pretty common in ODIs in the previous decades.
Vijy Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 S/R of some premier batsmen who played between 1997-2011. Ganguly 74 Sanga 75 Yousuf 75 Inzamam 74 S.Fleming 71 G.Kirsten 72 Bell 73 S/R in the low-mid 70s became outdated only after 2010. Anchor role was pretty common in ODIs in the previous decades. True. And of these, likes of Inzy and Ganguly (also Sanga) were regarded as "aggressive" players.
Marut Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 True. And of these' date=' likes of Inzy and Ganguly (also Sanga) were regarded as "aggressive" players.[/quote'] Yes. The difference between Ganguly and Dravid was that Ganguly (and Inzy) had an extra gear to their batting compared to Dravid. So they could occasionally play that sort of blinding innings that Dravid could not play. But Dravid was more robust and reliable, and especially outside Asia, Dravid and Ganguly wipe the floor with Inzy. At home: Dravid 43@79 Ganguly 44@77 Inzy 57@81 Away: Dravid 41@69 Ganguly 37@72 Inzy 37@71 Outside Asia: Dravid 40@70 Ganguly 39@74 Inzy 30@69
Vijy Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 Yes. The difference between Ganguly and Dravid was that Ganguly (and Inzy) had an extra gear to their batting compared to Dravid. So they could occasionally play that sort of blinding innings that Dravid could not play. But Dravid was more robust and reliable, and especially outside Asia, Dravid and Ganguly wipe the floor with Inzy. At home: Dravid 43@79 Ganguly 44@77 Inzy 57@81 Away: Dravid 41@69 Ganguly 37@72 Inzy 37@71 Outside Asia: Dravid 40@70 Ganguly 39@74 Inzy 30@69 Really illustrates how underrated Dravid was. He did very badly in last 1-2 seasons of ODI career and first 2-3 yrs in the beginning. But, for about 10+ yrs, he was an excellent ODI bat.
jusarrived Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 Rahul was a wk at U19 level' date=' so, he isn't a partitmer. He is like ABDV who played mostly as batsman for his team despite also being a wicketkeeper.[/quote'] Karnataka has a very successful keeper and very important batsmen in Gautham , one of the reasons why he may not have kept enough in domestic .
jusarrived Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 Middle order batsmen also tend to have higher strike rates. Dravid's strike rate when he was keeping was pretty low by modern standards. In 2002 it was 76 In 2003 it was an abysmal 64 In 2004 it slightly improved to 72 but his average dropped to 33. All above stats as WK. errr no ? Its the openers and late order batsmen who have higher SR's
jusarrived Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 Not exactly flourished, unless you think a better average translates as flourish. He kept wickets for 3 years, 2002-2004, regressing with each year. The averages might look good due to not outs, but the strike rates were pretty below average. In fact, Dravid used keeping to justify his spot in the ODI team AFAIK. He played some of the most Crucial knocks helping India chase totals which we sued to Suck at till then , while some of the so called "best batsmen" where busy inflating their stats top of the order . Lets give credit where its due .
Marut Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 Really illustrates how underrated Dravid was. He did very badly in last 1-2 seasons of ODI career and first 2-3 yrs in the beginning. But' date=' for about 10+ yrs, he was an excellent ODI bat.[/quote'] Dravid was one of our best ODI batsman outside Asia, perhaps better than even Tendulkar. A bit strange when you think that some Indians think he was in the side due to his keeping. :haha: Some of our best ODI bats could not make runs outside Asia - check Sehwag, Raina, Yuvraj etc, Look at the number of Dravid 50's outside Asia!!
Vijy Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 Dravid was one of our best ODI batsman outside Asia, perhaps better than even Tendulkar. A bit strange when you think that some Indians think he was in the side due to his keeping. :haha: Some of our best ODI bats could not make runs outside Asia - check Sehwag, Raina, Yuvraj etc, Look at the number of Dravid 50's outside Asia!! Thing with Tendu is that he peaked really late; started ODI career in '90; as opener in '94 and took around 1-2 yrs to find bearings. When you take these factors into account, i.e. look at him from 1994-2011, he averaged 43 outside Asia (against the top teams you specified) and at a SR of 85. Of course, one can make analogous statements for Dravid, but I'd still place SRT a little ahead of Dravid even outside Asia (within Asia of course, the comparison is unnecessary). But, you're absolutely right that Dravid was one of our finest ever bats outside Asia, rivalled only by SRT and Dhobi (Kohli's career is not nearing the end so I haven't included him). Gambhir was another very underrated ODI batsman - a strong contender for our best No.3 if not for Kohli.
Marut Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 Thing with Tendu is that he peaked really late; started ODI career in '90; as opener in '94 and took around 1-2 yrs to find bearings. When you take these factors into account, i.e. look at him from 1994-2011, he averaged 43 outside Asia (against the top teams you specified) and at a SR of 85. Of course, one can make analogous statements for Dravid, but I'd still place SRT a little ahead of Dravid even outside Asia (within Asia of course, the comparison is unnecessary). But, you're absolutely right that Dravid was one of our finest ever bats outside Asia, rivalled only by SRT and Dhobi (Kohli's career is not nearing the end so I haven't included him). Gambhir was another very underrated ODI batsman - a strong contender for our best No.3 if not for Kohli. Agree. But openers tend to have higher strike rates since the mid 90s, and so do the middle order. In ODIs, #3-#4 generally have inferior strike rates compared to #1,2,5,6 players, but they usually have somewhat higher averages. The middle overs in ODIs are not conducive for boundary hitting so runs are harder to come by.
rkt.india Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 Dravid was one of our best ODI batsman outside Asia, perhaps better than even Tendulkar. A bit strange when you think that some Indians think he was in the side due to his keeping. :haha: Some of our best ODI bats could not make runs outside Asia - check Sehwag, Raina, Yuvraj etc, Look at the number of Dravid 50's outside Asia!! Even Ajay Jadeja averages more than Raina and Yuvraj outside Asia.
rkt.india Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 Thing with Tendu is that he peaked really late; started ODI career in '90; as opener in '94 and took around 1-2 yrs to find bearings. When you take these factors into account, i.e. look at him from 1994-2011, he averaged 43 outside Asia (against the top teams you specified) and at a SR of 85. Of course, one can make analogous statements for Dravid, but I'd still place SRT a little ahead of Dravid even outside Asia (within Asia of course, the comparison is unnecessary). But, you're absolutely right that Dravid was one of our finest ever bats outside Asia, rivalled only by SRT and Dhobi (Kohli's career is not nearing the end so I haven't included him). Gambhir was another very underrated ODI batsman - a strong contender for our best No.3 if not for Kohli. Dhoni's runs are no where close to Dravid despite being higher average and about similar number of matches.
jusarrived Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 Even Ajay Jadeja averages more than Raina and Yuvraj outside Asia. a career avg difference of 6-7 is not much . Rainas SR was 93 . Overall it looks like Tendulkars avg took the biggest dip overseas . 35 @ SR of 80
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