Purely on performance who are the best young fast bowlers in Indian domestics

[speedster]

I believe that the selection for the A team is vital, recent tours have seen the same bowlers who struggle at the International level being selected repeatedly. The likes of Dhawal, Unadkat are unlikely to improve , Aniket, Ankit etc who have enough first class experience have to be tested there.

 

55 minutes ago, Texan said:

If he was truly hurrying batsmen for pace consistently, he would be getting wickets. 140-145 without skill is not the pace that will trouble any international team. I have seen even Bangladesh batsmen smash Varun Aaron all over the place. You have to be 150+ for troubling batsmen with genuine pace alone. Umesh has now played 22 Tests, so its not like he is new to Test cricket and he averages 38. Aaron is even worse, averaging 53. 

You are absolutely right on the emphasis that skill and consistency should be the paramount yardstick for a pacer. On the issue of Aaron, the argument that genuine 150+ would rattle the batsman and Aaron fails because he falls outside that range is not something I agree with, I believe he is as quick as anyone in the world scene right now, all it proves is that even at this extreme pace you need accuracy which is currently not his forte, noway is he lacking on extreme pace. On the recent disastrous tour to England, I do recall him bowling some hostile spells where he had Stuart Broad in a lot of trouble so he definitely has it in him.

[Vijy]

1 hour ago, express bowling said:

Hurrying batsmen for pace is not the only quality required for taking wickets  regularly in international cricket.

 

You are honing on the wrong point.  They hurry batsmen but lack the sequence of deliveries that are required for setting up batsmen and taking wickets  regularly.

 

What are you fighting about when I am saying that Umesh Yadav is an ordinary bowler ?

 

I want international quality strike bowlers among our pacers and none of them are good enough.

 

Pacers who have both skills and pace / bounce are required for producing strike seamers  and we don't have any.  ( Shami is the closest we have )

 

 

 

When we don't have any, is this extensive discussion of any use? Seems to me that the team should just focus on picking its best XI and doing the best possible job we can. In an ideal world, we would have technically sound but aggressive batsmen that are great against pace, swing and spin, world class allrounders who make impact with bat and ball both within and outside SC, genuine speedsters with control over line, length, swing and seam, and lastly world-class spinners who pick up loads of wickets everywhere.

 

Right now, we have some very good players (potentially those who will make the AT Indian Test XI), some good ones, and some ordinary ones.

[express bowling]

13 minutes ago, Vijy said:

When we don't have any, is this extensive discussion of any use? Seems to me that the team should just focus on picking its best XI and doing the best possible job we can. In an ideal world, we would have technically sound but aggressive batsmen that are great against pace, swing and spin, world class allrounders who make impact with bat and ball both within and outside SC, genuine speedsters with control over line, length, swing and seam, and lastly world-class spinners who pick up loads of wickets everywhere.

 

Right now, we have some very good players (potentially those who will make the AT Indian Test XI), some good ones, and some ordinary ones.

 

We have produced ATG batsmen for the last 45 years.  We have 2 or 3 in the making as of now.

 

We have not produced an ATG bowler ever, if we consider either SR or  averages.

 

Not really comparable.

 

I don't know whether we are picking the best really. Like, we have never tried a spinner like Samar Quadri in our A team even.

 

Not producing strike bowlers won't win you test matches on a consistent basis and  is not an optional thing.

 

The way to go is to develop the talent you have instead of giving up lamely.  Teach skills to the quick pacers you have and improve the pace of the skilled medium pacers.

 

Look at Woakes...he was a medium-fast bowler only a couple of seasons ago but now bowling fast and with skill.   Same happened with Ryan Harris of Australia.  Mitchell Johnson was a semi-skilled fast bowler who was tutored to become a top strike bowler....and the list goes on.

 

You don't get ready made strike-bowlers but develop them most of the times.

[Vijy]

2 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

We have produced ATG batsmen for the last 45 years.  We have 2 or 3 in the making as of now.

 

We have not produced an ATG bowler ever, if we consider either SR or  averages.

 

Not really comparable.

 

I don't know whether we are picking the best really. Like, we have never tried a spinner like Samar Quadri in our A team even.

 

Not producing strike bowlers won't win you test matches on a consistent basis and  is not an optional thing.

 

The way to go is to develop the talent you have instead of giving up lamely.  Teach skills to the quick pacers you have and improve the pace of the skilled medium pacers.

 

Look at Woakes...he was a medium-fast bowler only a couple of seasons ago but now bowling fast and with skill.   Same happened with Ryan Harris of Australia.  Mitchell Johnson was a semi-skilled fast bowler who was tutored to become a top strike bowler....and the list goes on.

 

You don't get ready made strike-bowlers but develop them most of the times.

Well, sometimes you do... like Amir as a teenager. In fact, I'd argue that most of the great Pakistani pacers burst onto the scene with a fairly complete set of skills like Waqar and Wasim. The exception was Imran, who did convert himself into a great bowler eventually.

 

Regarding our selection choices, I agree that we are not necessarily picking the right choices... Rohit, Jaddu, etc. to name a few.

 

Regarding MJ, I disagree that he became a top strike bowler. He always had the potential, and in the ended, he always ended up blowing hot and cold - of course, he blew very, very hot for some series in a row, but on the whole, not a very consistent player.

[express bowling]

11 minutes ago, Vijy said:

Well, sometimes you do... like Amir as a teenager. In fact, I'd argue that most of the great Pakistani pacers burst onto the scene with a fairly complete set of skills like Waqar and Wasim. The exception was Imran, who did convert himself into a great bowler eventually.

 

Regarding our selection choices, I agree that we are not necessarily picking the right choices... Rohit, Jaddu, etc. to name a few.

 

Regarding MJ, I disagree that he became a top strike bowler. He always had the potential, and in the ended, he always ended up blowing hot and cold - of course, he blew very, very hot for some series in a row, but on the whole, not a very consistent player.

 

Not really.  Wasim was very raw when he started off.  Imran once said to Gavaskar that this guy has a bit of pace but does not want to bowl quick.  He had to be mentored to combine pace with swing and Imran played a big part.

 

Don't forget that....countries which have a pace bowling culture often develop bowlers before they are introduced in international cricket. Like we see with some pacers in Australia, South Africa etc.

 

Our problem is....we don't have a pace bowling culture.  Young pacers have very few,  if any, idols from our country to look upto  and the quality of our domestic coaches are very bad.   Our young pacers just don't know what to do ...to pick up loads of wickets.

 

Just look at any English seamer bowl....he has a better idea than our seamers about what to do to set-up batsmen.

Edited November 19, 2016 by express bowling

[Vijy]

2 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

Not really.  Wasim was very raw when he started off.  Imran once said to Gavaskar that this guy has a bit of pace but does not want to bowl quick.  He had to be mentored to combine pace with swing and Imran played a big part.

 

Don't forget that....countries which have a pace bowling culture often develop bowlers before they are introduced in international cricket. Like we see with some pacers in Australia, South Africa etc.

 

Our problem is....we don't have a pace bowling culture.  Young pacers have very few,  if any, idols from our country to look upto  and the quality of our domestic coaches are very bad.   Our young pacers just don't know what to do ...to pick up loads of wickets.

It's equally, if not more, worrying that despite the presence of a spin culture, I don't see any top-notch spinners coming through the ranks (Ash is fine for now).

What you mentioned with regards to pacers is also true for ARs: we've had only two of them in our history (prior to Ash) - Kapil and Mankad.

 

In fact, apart from batsmen, we haven't any remarkable spinners, pacers, ARs and keepers coming through the ranks (Panty and Kishan are quite crap at keeping, although I'm hoping they will improve). Thanks to our batsmen (Vijay, Rahane, Kohli and ChePu) and Ashwin (along with Jaddu on turners), we've managed to cover up most of these deficiencies.

[speedster]

4 minutes ago, Vijy said:

It's equally, if not more, worrying that despite the presence of a spin culture, I don't see any top-notch spinners coming through the ranks (Ash is fine for now).

What you mentioned with regards to pacers is also true for ARs: we've had only two of them in our history (prior to Ash) - Kapil and Mankad.

 

In fact, apart from batsmen, we haven't any remarkable spinners, pacers, ARs and keepers coming through the ranks (Panty and Kishan are quite crap at keeping, although I'm hoping they will improve). Thanks to our batsmen (Vijay, Rahane, Kohli and ChePu) and Ashwin (along with Jaddu on turners), we've managed to cover up most of these deficiencies.

There are some interesting options in spin, Express Bowling mentioned Qadri, there is Kuldeep Yadav, Ladda was another, hopefully Harmeet Singh can fulfill some of the early promise, they do have potential but need to be groomed on A tours

 

While on the subject of pacers, Sandeep Warrier was mentioned as the next big hope, not sure how he is doing now

[Vijy]

Just now, speedster said:

There are some interesting options in spin, Express Bowling mentioned Qadri, there is Kuldeep Yadav, Ladda was another, hopefully Harmeet Singh can fulfill some of the early promise, they do have potential but need to be groomed on A tours

 

While on the subject of pacers, Sandeep Warrier was mentioned as the next big hope, not sure how he is doing now

Kuldeep has improved certainly, but he's a bit flashy. As for Quadri, he has never been given any chances in "A" team and rarely (or never) in Irani, Duleep, etc. Ladda and Harmeet may be capable, but they are no longer regulars in Ranjis. This is why it's so sad. Firstly, the cupboard is quite bare and secondly, lot of mismanagement also.

[express bowling]

14 minutes ago, Vijy said:

It's equally, if not more, worrying that despite the presence of a spin culture, I don't see any top-notch spinners coming through the ranks (Ash is fine for now).

What you mentioned with regards to pacers is also true for ARs: we've had only two of them in our history (prior to Ash) - Kapil and Mankad.

 

In fact, apart from batsmen, we haven't any remarkable spinners, pacers, ARs and keepers coming through the ranks (Panty and Kishan are quite crap at keeping, although I'm hoping they will improve). Thanks to our batsmen (Vijay, Rahane, Kohli and ChePu) and Ashwin (along with Jaddu on turners), we've managed to cover up most of these deficiencies.

Indeed it is.   We don't want to develop spinners who can spin the ball  big and always want to depend on spinning pitches to pick up wickets. We have a MRF pace foundation but is there any well known spin bowling academy  ?  

 

A spinner must spin the ball and a pacer must have some pace....that is the starting point and then the finer points of bowling come in.  We either falter at the starting point or do not want to go on to the advanced level as far as  bowling is concerned.

 

We don't have good all-rounders because the bowling part is weak for the aspiring ones.

 

Our batting is a different story altogether ...where most things our system does is right.

[Vijy]

3 minutes ago, express bowling said:

Indeed it is.   We don't want to develop spinners who can spin the ball  big and always want to depend on spinning pitches to pick up wickets. We have a MRF pace foundation but is there any well known spin bowling academy  ?  

 

A spinner must spin the ball and a pacer must have some pace....that is the starting point and then the finer points of bowling come in.  We either falter at the starting point or do not want to go on to the advanced level as far as  bowling is concerned.

 

We don't have good all-rounders because the bowling part is weak for the aspiring ones.

 

Our batting is a different story altogether ...where most things our system does is right.

Very true. What is required is an amalgam of 90s and 2010s policies, along with further improvements. People like Raju, Hirwani probably even Kanwaljit Singh would have been much better than this bunch (barring Ashwin maybe).

 

Our batting is doing very well, but I still think that they need to work a bit more on playing spin. The team has some outstanding batsmen but not players of spin on the level of VVS, SRT at peak, Sidhu, etc.

Edited November 19, 2016 by Vijy

[express bowling]

6 minutes ago, Vijy said:

Very true. What is required is an amalgam of 90s and 2010s policies, along with further improvements. People like Raju, Hirwani probably even Kanwaljit Singh would have been much better than this bunch (barring Ashwin maybe).

 

Our batting is doing very well, but I still think that they need to work a bit more on playing spin. The team has some outstanding batsmen but not players of spin on the level of VVS, SRT at peak, Sidhu, etc.

 

Ashwin is an intelligent finger-spinner we have who knows how to pick up wickets while playing in Asia.  To aid him on different types of surfaces....we need a good wrist spinner who can turn the ball big, has a googly and a  flipper  and has wicket-taking ability.

[Vijy]

3 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

Ashwin is an intelligent finger-spinner we have who knows how to pick up wickets while playing in Asia.  To aid him on different types of surfaces....we need a good wrist spinner who can turn the ball big, has a googly and a  flipper  and has wicket-taking ability.

Preferably two of them.... I wonder if Chandra would consider coming out of retirement? He would do better than most.

[express bowling]

4 minutes ago, Vijy said:

Preferably two of them.... I wonder if Chandra would consider coming out of retirement? He would do better than most.

Yes....preferably......Kuldeep, Quadri and Chahal are the viable options  now.

[Vijy]

6 minutes ago, express bowling said:

Yes....preferably......Kuldeep, Quadri and Chahal are the viable options  now.

And Chandra. I looked at the highlights of the Duleep trophy where Kuldeep picked up a fair number of wkts. Was not very impressed by his stock ball. Seems to me that more fell to his googly and maybe flipper than the stock ball.

[express bowling]

2 minutes ago, Vijy said:

And Chandra. I looked at the highlights of the Duleep trophy where Kuldeep picked up a fair number of wkts. Was not very impressed by his stock ball. Seems to me that more fell to his googly and maybe flipper than the stock ball.

 

There was an interesting happening in the Duleep trophy.

 

Kuldeep turned his leg-spinners significantly while bowling before sun-down and found it difficult to turn his leg-spinners after sun-set, when the dew factor came in.

[Vijy]

1 minute ago, express bowling said:

 

There was an interesting happening in the Duleep trophy.

 

Kuldeep turned his leg-spinners significantly while bowling before sun-down and found it difficult to turn his leg-spinners after sun-set, when the dew factor came in.

I see. Didn't realize that from the highlights of course. Well, I guess that augurs well for the future since the stock ball is very important.

[express bowling]

3 minutes ago, Vijy said:

I see. Didn't realize that from the highlights of course. Well, I guess that augurs well for the future since the stock ball is very important.

Indeed.   That is the most important delivery rather than the variations.

[Vijy]

5 minutes ago, express bowling said:

Indeed.   That is the most important delivery rather than the variations.

Yes, I hope he continues to refine it further.

[express bowling]

Among our uncapped pacers, I  feel Shardul Thakur is worth a try.

 

He is a skilled pacer with natural outswing and developed inswing. Can reverse the ball too.

 

Very accurate bowler.

 

He is sharp and has a good bouncer too. He is actually one of the few Indian pacers who  regularly pushes back batsmen with bouncers and then pitches up for wickets.

 

Can bowl yorkers too.

 

He was one of the top wicket takers in last year's Ranji and has wicket taking ability. Has a good FC record.

 

Performed really well in the last A tour.

 

 

Edited November 20, 2016 by express bowling

[Vijy]

9 minutes ago, express bowling said:

Among our uncapped pacers, I  feel Shardul Thakur is worth a try.

 

He is a skilled pacer with natural outswing and developed inswing. Can reverse the ball too.

 

Very accurate bowler.

 

He is sharp and has a good bouncer too. He is actually one of the few Indian pacers who  regularly pushes back batsmen with bouncers and then pitches up for wickets.

 

Can bowl yorkers too.

 

He was one of the top wicket takers in last year's Ranji and has wicket taking ability. Has a good FC record.

 

Performed really well in the last A tour.

 

 

Has been somewhat off colour this season. I'm also concerned about his fitness... at least in the past, his pace and intensity dropped towards the end of the day