From the vault : South African Magazine on Indian fast bowlers bowling speed -2003

[Muloghonto]

3 minutes ago, Rightarmfast said:

Were you his doctor for his groin injury?

???

No, anyone who followed cricket in the 90s knows that between 96 and 2000, Akram got K/O-ed by his groin several times.

Your legs cannot transfer your momentum from running to the ball well if you cannot shift weight on to the front foot well due to a screwed up groin or hamstring. Pretty straightforward, really.

 

[the don]

1 minute ago, express bowling said:

That has not happened in test matches or ODIs in the last 3 years, when we have had multiple fast bowlers in our teams.

 

All our fast bowlers bowl 140 k to 145 k spells at will in test matches, throughout the day, except Bhuvi.

 

You don't have any such TEST fast bowler  barring Wahab.

 

Amir is a trundler in test matches.... where it takes stamina to toil throughout the day.

 

If you want to be happy with T20 speeds then good luck to you.

 

Wahab is slower on an average than Umesh in test matches, as I showed you by stats.

 

This is not my opinion.... check the stats yourself by going to espncricinfo.

Well than lets use stats for the same venue at least .

Wahab touched 155 kph the other day in the westindies.

Has yadav ever done that at his fastest.

[Muloghonto]

1 minute ago, the don said:

Yes hasnt hit peak pace in tests .

But ability to hit 150 is still there and has done so.

Thats not a matter of peak, thats a matter of fitness. He is not fit enough to hit 140kph in tests and still hang around for the whole day, never mind 5 days. 
And until he hits 140kph in tests, i don't consider him a fast bowler anymore. Coz fast bowling is about being fit enough to bowl fast all day. Its not even that he is bowling his opening spells in tests at 140-145 and then dropping pace due to fitness. he straight up, cannot bowl more than 140 in tests. And even then, he rarely hits 140 in tests.

 

[express bowling]

18 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

!?

Plenty of bowlers- fast or medium fast- can bowl 2-3 overs of fast spells in midst of a slower spell late in the day...

There is no such thing as a 'part time quick bowler'. If a bowler chooses to bowl a bit slower to gain more swing or throws in few extra slower deliveries, it doesnt make him a part-time fast bowler. A fast bowler is one who can bowl fast at will. That is Akram. it doesnt matter that he didn't have to sometimes, what matters is till he got diabetes and screwed up his groin, he could bowl fast at will. 

 

 

I am NOT  talking about slower deliveries here.

 

There are lots of bowlers who have the ability to bowl fast but those who actually do it in most spells are the ones known as fast bowlers.

 

Those pacers who reduce pace to gain control or swing or due to injury are not known as fast bowlers even if they can bowl fast when they want.

 

it is not about what oine can do but what one does regularly.

[the don]

4 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

 

If you want to be happy with T20 speeds then good luck to you.

 

Wahab is slower on an average than Umesh in test matches, as I showed you by stats.

 

This is not my opinion.... check the stats yourself by going to espncricinfo.

You picked a random series vs westindies to prove a point.

Lets just wait for the champions trophy ?? like we did for the world cup and like always amir and co will hit top speeds .

 

[Muloghonto]

24 minutes ago, the don said:

What happens when they play on similar conditions and under similar speed guns ?? 

Pakistani bowlers always top the speed charts .

If you think amir is a trundler than you dont no nothing about fast bowling .

He can easily hit 148-150 . Does so in t20s . Not so much in tests unless the bowl is reversing .

As for wahab well why he is miles quicker than yadav .

Yadav can dream of consistently hitting 91-92 mph in the UAE heat like he did against england in that match winning spell .

Yadav and amir are skiddy but wahab definitely has more air speed.

 

Always ? Dude, in 2003 world cup,  Zaheer,Nehra and Srinath were faster than Wasim and Waqar. And your fastest bowler that day got vaporized.

if Amir could easily hit 148-150, he wouldn't be bowling 135-138 in tests since his return. Guy is not fit enough to bowl 140+ unless it is short 3-4 over bursts and a quota of 4-10 overs max.

 

[express bowling]

6 minutes ago, the don said:

Well than lets use stats for the same venue at least .

Wahab touched 155 kph the other day in the westindies.

Has yadav ever done that at his fastest.

 

Did he play a test match in the WI ?

 

I am talking test match speeds, where Wahab has lower average speeds compared to Umesh.  This is the format where you have to bowl 20 overs a day and it is difficult to sustain speed.

 

You keep on bringing out mini-mouse T20 speeds where only 4 overs of bowling are required and many pacers don't even want to bowl fast so that the batsmen do not get the pace to hit square of the wicket.

 

Edited April 13, 2017 by express bowling

[Muloghonto]

2 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

I am NOT  talking about slower deliveries here.

 

There are lots of bowlers who have the ability to bowl fast but those who actually do it in most spells are the ones known as fast bowlers.

 

Those pacers who reduce pace to gain control or swing or due to injury are not known as fast bowlers even if they can bowl fast when they want.

 

it is not about what oine can do but what one does regularly.

But those who can bowl fast at will are known as fast bowlers. Its not like every single time Wasim bowled at medium-fast. But Wasim was a prodigious swinger of the ball and he is on record saying conventional swing is most when its below 90mph. He bowled medium fast and extra swing on swinging wickets of Eng/NZ but bowled fast as fast can be on hard, bouncy pitches of WI or AUS. 

we are NOT talking about a bowler who bowls medium fast coz he sprays it around if he tries to bowl too fast. We are talking about a bowler who can effectively trade speed for more swing on favourable conditions. If that was so easy to do, then nobody would be bowling at over 85mph in England or NZ. Its not like everyone will automatically get more swing if they bowl at 85mph instead of 90mph. you still have to actually swing it more to make the drop in pace noteworthy.

 

[the don]

4 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Thats not a matter of peak, thats a matter of fitness. He is not fit enough to hit 140kph in tests and still hang around for the whole day, never mind 5 days. 
And until he hits 140kph in tests, i don't consider him a fast bowler anymore. Coz fast bowling is about being fit enough to bowl fast all day. Its not even that he is bowling his opening spells in tests at 140-145 and then dropping pace due to fitness. he straight up, cannot bowl more than 140 in tests. And even then, he rarely hits 140 in tests.

 

He needs leg work and more playing time to be able to bowl in test matches .

He was rushed in . Nowhere near peak fitness yet .

Will get there though . Sitting in a plush home in defence lahore without any serious cricket for 5 years takes its toll . What worries me is that he doesnt have the same hunger as he did as a village kid 6 years back.

[express bowling]

4 minutes ago, the don said:

You picked a random series vs westindies to prove a point.

Lets just wait for the champions trophy ?? like we did for the world cup and like always amir and co will hit top speeds .

 

 

I did not pick a random series.

 

It is the last test series in which Pakistan played, for which hawk-eye speeds are available on espncricinfo. I mentioned the same in the original post.

 

Basically I wanted to give the latest data available for all the pacers.

[Muloghonto]

3 minutes ago, the don said:

He needs leg work and more playing time to be able to bowl in test matches .

He was rushed in . Nowhere near peak fitness yet .

Will get there though . Sitting in a plush home in defence lahore without any serious cricket for 5 years takes its toll . What worries me is that he doesnt have the same hunger as he did as a village kid 6 years back.

Happens to a lot of village sporting stars the world over. They know nothing about the scope of the game, they only know that they have to try their best to be get paid. Then a few years later, they realize that oodles more $$ can be made if they slow down their game, try and elongate their careers than go balls out and burn out. 

We see this in soccer a lot. Practically every African/Latino signing in Europe runs like Usain Bolt for the first year or two. Then they start doing the whole 'ball is not on my foot, lets walk around' for the rest of their careers too.

 

But until he displays the ability to bowl at 140kph in the longer format, i won't consider him a fast bowler.

 

Its also not like Aamir consistently bowls 140+ in ODIs/T20s. He has the occasional day he bowls very fast in the short format and most days he goes back to 135-138 zone. Meaning, his fitness is an issue. Only when he is feeling peak fit, can he sustain those 140+ days for 4-5 overs at best.

Edited April 13, 2017 by Muloghonto

[the don]

2 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

Did he play a test match in the WI ?

 

I am talking test match speeds, where Wahab has lower average speeds compared to Umesh.  This is the format where you have to bowl 20 overs a day and it is difficult to sustain speed.

 

You keep on bringing out mini-mouse T20 speeds where only 4 overs of bowling are required and many pacers don't even want to bowl fast so that the batsmen do not get the pace to hit square of the wicket.

 

If you are going to use test match speeds than at least be kind enough to use the latest samples .

Not ones that fit the agenda . Let me figure out how to use cricinfo hawkeye and than ill post some test match speeds for you.

Although we can easily wait for the champions trophy game.

[the don]

2 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

I did not pick a random series.

 

It is the last test series in which Pakistan played, for which hawk-eye speeds are available on espncricinfo. I mentioned the same in the original post.

 

Basically I wanted to give the latest data available for all the pacers.

Did you watch that series and the conditions than . 

Kindly use the last test series for both guys minus the slower balls which for wahab would be australia .

That would be slightly more accurate .

[the don]

4 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

I did not pick a random series.

 

It is the last test series in which Pakistan played, for which hawk-eye speeds are available on espncricinfo. I mentioned the same in the original post.

 

Basically I wanted to give the latest data available for all the pacers.

The reason i stress on similar conditions is because starc was visibly and statsitically quicker than yadav in india but that was definitely not the case when pakistan toured australia . 

Wahab matched him for pace easily.

[express bowling]

4 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

But those who can bowl fast at will are known as fast bowlers. Its not like every single time Wasim bowled at medium-fast. But Wasim was a prodigious swinger of the ball and he is on record saying conventional swing is most when its below 90mph. He bowled medium fast and extra swing on swinging wickets of Eng/NZ but bowled fast as fast can be on hard, bouncy pitches of WI or AUS. 

we are NOT talking about a bowler who bowls medium fast coz he sprays it around if he tries to bowl too fast. We are talking about a bowler who can effectively trade speed for more swing on favourable conditions. If that was so easy to do, then nobody would be bowling at over 85mph in England or NZ. Its not like everyone will automatically get more swing if they bowl at 85mph instead of 90mph. you still have to actually swing it more to make the drop in pace noteworthy.

 

 

Nobody says it is easy. Akram was and always will remain one of my favourite bowlers.

 

But a true fast bowler is one who actually bowls consistently fast ..... as simple as that.

 

If you want to be a good swing bowler and reduce pace to achieve that then you don't remain an out and out fast bowler.

 

Even Zaheer could bowl fast spells and fast balls when he wanted to.... but he choose to be a fast-medium swing and seam bowler and we consider him as such.

[Muloghonto]

2 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

Nobody says it is easy. Akram was and always will remain one of my favourite bowlers.

 

But a true fast bowler is one who actually bowls consistently fast ..... as simple as that.

 

If you want to be a good swing bowler and reduce pace to achieve that then you don't remain an out and out fast bowler.

 

Even Zaheer could bowl fast spells and fast balls when he wanted to.... but he choose to be a fast-medium swing and seam bowler and we consider him as such.

And he bowled consistently fast right up to 95-97 period in places where there was no point in slowing down coz the ball wasnt going to swing/seam. Ie, AUS/WI. 

Like i said, the ability to reduce speed and gain more swing makes Akram a far more multi-dimensional fast bowler, not a part time fast bowler. Because it is an addition to his skill and a very rare skill to have.

Zaheer chose to be a medium-fast guy coz Zaheer always had control issues. Thats the reason most guys who CAN bowl fast end up as fast-medium. Its not like Zaheer would bowl entire series in Australia at 145 and then drop down to 135 coz of banana swing in England.

He more or less bowled the same speed through the year, based on his fitness level, regardless of where he was bowling- like most fast bowlers.

 

[express bowling]

12 minutes ago, the don said:

If you are going to use test match speeds than at least be kind enough to use the latest samples .

Not ones that fit the agenda . Let me figure out how to use cricinfo hawkeye and than ill post some test match speeds for you.

 

There were no hawk-eye speeds available for the latest series against  Australia. Otherewise, i would have used it.

 

Anyway the latest test series for both countries in Asia is a rather fair comparison I beleive.

 

12 minutes ago, the don said:

 

Although we can easily wait for the champions trophy game.

 

You do realize that Champion's trophy is not a test competition and there is good chance that we will not use any of our quickest bowlers in that competition.

 

Our slowest Bhuvi is sure to play as it is in swing friendly England.  The other pacer will be Bumrah, who is quick but not among our top 5 quickest pacers.

 

[kira]

4 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

Ok bhai, let me know of a batsman who thought a pacer was faster because he couldn't pick him. Spinners illustrate the point much better, because of a bigger variance in pace between spinners like Kumble and Warne or Jadeja and Mishra. 

Like i said, you are calling Akram medium fast. I am yet to hear anyone present any evidence of Akram being medium fast for most of his career. Infact, the opposite is true- practically everyone says he was pretty fast. So I am going to go with experts, rather than seeing 'data' of a guy with diabetes and multiple chronic injuries being compared with a bowler who had neither, that too on the wrong side of 30s. Different bowlers slow down at different rates when they get old. 

 

First answer me on what basis did you claim that hazlewood was faster than umesh? You've already got a big EGG on your face after claiming that. At least acknowledge that you were wrong in stating that hazlewood was faster than umesh, This also proves that you are biased and your word cannot be taken at face value because you are inherently biased against indian bowlers, you have already been embarrassed in this thread with data when you claimed that umesh  was slower than hazlewood, instead of acknowledging the fact that your perception his heavily biased you are running away like a coward 

[Rightarmfast]

1 hour ago, kira said:

 

First answer me on what basis did you claim that hazlewood was faster than umesh? You've already got a big EGG on your face after claiming that. At least acknowledge that you were wrong in stating that hazlewood was faster than umesh, This also proves that you are biased and your word cannot be taken at face value because you are inherently biased against indian bowlers, you have already been embarrassed in this thread with data when you claimed that umesh  was slower than hazlewood, instead of acknowledging the fact that your perception his heavily biased you are running away like a coward 

He has not even acknowledged that he lied about 99 WI Aus series bowling speeds.

[Rightarmfast]

19 hours ago, the don said:

I am not talking about online forums .

I am talking about the real world . Where wasim and srinath are never mentioned in the same sentence.

Yes i have lost the battle and i am very hurt . Brb crying because wasim cannot bowl fast according to an online expert and all those batsmen who faced him lied.

HAHAHAHAHAHA! Poor me, and for some reasons I assumed people come to forums to discuss about intricate details on which people have more knowledge and more idea than the ' real world ' :) 

Wonder what you are doing here on this forum rather than proving your point with the ' real world ' outside :)