Can Manoj Tiwary make a comeback?

[Cricketics]

1 hour ago, rkt.india said:

Raina debuted against SL at 19 in 2005 and scored a duck on debut. He then played against England in next series and played one good innings. Very soon, he started batting at 3 after seniors were dropped but there he was exposed against quality fast bowling. His induction also ensured that he could not develop his long format game.

And hence I said that players mature later, Raina matured a bit later, and thats what we should expect from other youngsters too. If they fail as youngsters, they can be played later in their career and they shouldn't be just shown the door like that and put curtains on.

 

And similarly, not all should be tried right away together otherwise team will lose more often like DD was losing in the IPL. Have proper transition. 

 

 

 

[Pollack]

Yes. We should allow players maturing at domestics. And fill the team with all 30+ matured  grandpa players.  And you are pretty sure maturity comes by playing for years in domestics.  Utthapa still hasn't matured. Pappu still hasn't matured in keeping.  

 

[OpeningBatsman]

1 minute ago, Pollack said:

Yes. We should allow players maturing at domestics. And fill the team with all 30+ matured  grandpa players.  And you are pretty sure maturity comes by playing for years in domestics.  Utthapa still hasn't matured. Pappu still hasn't matured in keeping.  

 

Off topic 

Dude, you're in pakpassion site with the same username right? 

[OpeningBatsman]

5 hours ago, Cricketics said:

And hence I said that players mature later, Raina matured a bit later, and thats what we should expect from other youngsters too. If they fail as youngsters, they can be played later in their career and they shouldn't be just shown the door like that and put curtains on.

 

And similarly, not all should be tried right away together otherwise team will lose more often like DD was losing in the IPL. Have proper transition. 

 

 

 

Also, Yuvi / zaheer made their debut in icc ct/knockut when they were 19-20 odd and preformed very well. So if you see a special talent then age shouldn't matter, get them in asap

 

Q de kock, rabada world beaters already and still v young and can serve SA for long time, coz they were picked young. 

Edited May 18, 2017 by OpeningBatsman

[King Tendulkar]

10 hours ago, Cricketics said:

If we remember clearly, Raina showed spark as 17-18 years when he won us a game against Pakistan in Panistan and then went on a decline and then later picked up his game as he matured and even though he had his weakness, he dominated lot of attacks in ODI's later in his career until recently when he started failing again in ODI's. He matured late but did exceptionally well once he was set.  

 

This is why it is important to carry one or two youngsters at a time but not too many. Have few and rotate around them. And give them chance and even if they get dropped, don't just shut them out completely forever and call curtains on their career.  They shouldn't be treated like trash whom you just use and throw.  

 

They can be tried later once others have gotten chance. 

Karthick back . Selectors agree

[Pollack]

17 hours ago, Cricketics said:

And hence I said that players mature later, Raina matured a bit later, and thats what we should expect from other youngsters too. If they fail as youngsters, they can be played later in their career and they shouldn't be just shown the door like that and put curtains on.

 

And similarly, not all should be tried right away together otherwise team will lose more often like DD was losing in the IPL. Have proper transition. 

 

 

 

Say a hiring manager hires a fresh graduate for entry level position and he performs poorly and thrown out.After few years the candidate is now skilled enough so should HR hire him for the same position or the current batch of passouts who can equally do the job good should be hired?

The point being only and only if there is vacancy in the team which can only be filled by that player only should he be selected. If what he can do can also be done by an younger player why should the older be preferred? Manoj Tiwari has become decent in his striking abilities but is he really that good? Don't think so. He has just become decent.There are many younger players who can get the job much better than him. This maturity bullsheet is over emphasised.

[Cricketics]

2 hours ago, Pollack said:

Say a hiring manager hires a fresh graduate for entry level position and he performs poorly and thrown out.After few years the candidate is now skilled enough so should HR hire him for the same position or the current batch of passouts who can equally do the job good should be hired?

 

HR should hire whoever he thinks is capable of doing better. If the guy who failed in the past is back with good experience, then I as an HR would love to get the guy back instead of going back his past history and stereotyping him. Unless, the new fresh face is exceptional, I can hire him too. But hiring the failed guy from the past isn't wrong either and hiring the new one isn't wrong either.

 

2 hours ago, Pollack said:

 

The point being only and only if there is vacancy in the team which can only be filled by that player only should he be selected. If what he can do can also be done by an younger player why should the older be preferred? Manoj Tiwari has become decent in his striking abilities but is he really that good? Don't think so. He has just become decent.There are many younger players who can get the job much better than him. This maturity bullsheet is over emphasised.

Regarding Tiwary, I am not sure how good he will turn out, but regarding picking him over youngsters, you need to read what I wrote above. I said youngsters can be tried and then Tiwary should too be tried. Please just scroll up and read what I exactly wrote. I am all in favor of trying younsters but also in favor of not forgetting the players who have failed in the past as with time, they do improve.

[rkt.india]

17 hours ago, OpeningBatsman said:

Also, Yuvi / zaheer made their debut in icc ct/knockut when they were 19-20 odd and preformed very well. So if you see a special talent then age shouldn't matter, get them in asap

 

Q de kock, rabada world beaters already and still v young and can serve SA for long time, coz they were picked young. 

and Yuvi remained mediocre for first 5 years of his career, averaging under 30 in ODIs. Zak too stayed mediocre, was averaging 36 till 2005 in tests.

[rkt.india]

14 hours ago, King Tendulkar said:

Karthick back . Selectors agree

Karthick is a poor selection, should have picked Raina instead.

[OpeningBatsman]

 

26 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

and Yuvi remained mediocre for first 5 years of his career, averaging under 30 in ODIs. Zak too stayed mediocre, was averaging 36 till 2005 in tests.

 

 

NOPE:

Zaheer Averaged 22.40 with the ball in 2001, that is the year after his debut.

             he followed that with a bowling avg of 21.70 in 2001/02. Oh, and in year 2003 he averaged                        23.08 with the ball, including an excellent world cup except the finals.

 

Coming to Yuvraj, although his first year wasn't great (helped us reaching CT final). he averaged 37.50 with the bat in his second season, 37.33 in the third season, 37.85 in the fourth season

 

It's not just them Dekock, rabada, kohli, graeme smith, williamson... The list goes on n on...they all made their debut at young age rather than getting wasted in domestics.

 

Grame smith was made the frikking captain of his side at the age 21.

 

Most of the greats of the games are those who made it to the intnl arena before 23-24. It might take them a season to get used to the big stage, which is far better than rotting in domestics for 5 years .

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 19, 2017 by OpeningBatsman

[rkt.india]

7 minutes ago, OpeningBatsman said:

 

 

 

Yet, they helped india reach the finals in that tournament. It's not just them Dekock, rabada, kohli, graeme smith(captain at 21), williamson... The list goes on n on...they all made their debut at young age rather than getting wasted in domestics.

 

Most of the greats of the games are those who made it to the intnl arena beroe 23-24. Once they are adjusted to the big stage there was stopping them.  

 

 

Sent from my MotoG3-TE using Tapatalk

 

 

 

 

where did I say no youngster should make early debut? I said a very few youngsters start doing well immediately because it is impossible for youngsters to start doing well straight away with consistency. If he is talented, he will play good innings, show spark, but might not be very consistent. Yuvraj was same too. Kohli made his debut at 19-20 and failed, got dropped after 15 ODIs. Went back to domestic cricket and then came back again. So, it is important to not have too many rookies in the team at the same time. You can have one, at max 2, but it will be experienced players who will have to guide and take the youngsters ahead.

[OpeningBatsman]

15 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

where did I say no youngster should make early debut? I said a very few youngsters start doing well immediately because it is impossible for youngsters to start doing well straight away with consistency. If he is talented, he will play good innings, show spark, but might not be very consistent. Yuvraj was same too. Kohli made his debut at 19-20 and failed, got dropped after 15 ODIs. Went back to domestic cricket and then came back again. So, it is important to not have too many rookies in the team at the same time. You can have one, at max 2, but it will be experienced players who will have to guide and take the youngsters ahead.

I agree with that, you can't take 4-5 rookies in at the same time, all i said was one or two if they are really special can be selected even if they are young. 

 

see my post in the other thread about Karthik

 

 

"Not saying you should pick a team full of youngsters,but if there is a special talent then even if he is 17 you should blood him asap"

 

 

Edited May 19, 2017 by OpeningBatsman

[Pollack]

2 hours ago, rkt.india said:

where did I say no youngster should make early debut? I said a very few youngsters start doing well immediately because it is impossible for youngsters to start doing well straight away with consistency. If he is talented, he will play good innings, show spark, but might not be very consistent. Yuvraj was same too. Kohli made his debut at 19-20 and failed, got dropped after 15 ODIs. Went back to domestic cricket and then came back again. So, it is important to not have too many rookies in the team at the same time. You can have one, at max 2, but it will be experienced players who will have to guide and take the youngsters ahead.

You also need to consider that at a time at most 2-3 spots are only available. And you can always find someone special among youngsters to be tried for those spots. I will always prefer to try younger players for that spot rather than someone who was a TTF many years before but has now improved. Show me how many players made successfully comeback having failed miserably after spending many years in domestics. Karthik keeps on getting selected and failing periodically. Parthiv is yet a horrible keeper. Batting is also the same. No problems with Kedar like players who never got a chance inspite of performance in  domestics to get a chance in the team but this bullsheet of players maturing after playing for many years at lower levels is not what I am buying. If they took that much time then sorry they missed the train forever.

[King Tendulkar]

3 hours ago, rkt.india said:

Karthick is a poor selection, should have picked Raina instead.

Raina in England v bouncing ball . Errrr no thanks . Sums up why can't just look at ipl stats as we all know raina will get brutalised by Aussie battery for example 

[Ultimate_Game]

4 minutes ago, King Tendulkar said:

Raina in England v bouncing ball . Errrr no thanks . Sums up why can't just look at ipl stats as we all know raina will get brutalised by Aussie battery for example 

Check Raina's stats in odis in England. And these days England serves up flattest of pattas for shorter formats and you need players like Raina for those.

[King Tendulkar]

2 minutes ago, Ultimate_Game said:

Check Raina's stats in odis in England. And these days England serves up flattest of pattas for shorter formats and you need players like Raina for those.

Not bothered with stats . If so then karthicj being in odi side is spot on

 

he can't play pace and bounce . In England. Yes flatter . But still some carry . Knock out v Aussies and we all know what their battery of 90mph guys will do to him . Plus he is fat little thing now . 

 

Ipl this . Ipl that . Come on guys you can't look at just ipl ffs be smarter then this 

[rkt.india]

16 minutes ago, King Tendulkar said:

Raina in England v bouncing ball . Errrr no thanks . Sums up why can't just look at ipl stats as we all know raina will get brutalised by Aussie battery for example 

Raina has a good record in England. England does not have many bouncy pitches and he will bat at 6 and ball wont swing by the time he comes in to bat. His job will be to bash the bowlers in slog overs.

[rkt.india]

7 minutes ago, King Tendulkar said:

Not bothered with stats . If so then karthicj being in odi side is spot on

 

he can't play pace and bounce . In England. Yes flatter . But still some carry . Knock out v Aussies and we all know what their battery of 90mph guys will do to him . Plus he is fat little thing now . 

 

Ipl this . Ipl that . Come on guys you can't look at just ipl ffs be smarter then this 

What has Karthick done in ODIs to be in the ODI side. 

[Ultimate_Game]

2 hours ago, King Tendulkar said:

Not bothered with stats . If so then karthicj being in odi side is spot on

 

he can't play pace and bounce . In England. Yes flatter . But still some carry . Knock out v Aussies and we all know what their battery of 90mph guys will do to him . Plus he is fat little thing now . 

 

Ipl this . Ipl that . Come on guys you can't look at just ipl ffs be smarter then this 

What exactly has Karthik done? He neither has stats or good performances in England. Raina trumps Karthik in both these categories plus he's a much better fielder and an ideal team player.

[King Tendulkar]

Never said karthick shoudl be picked

 

my point is dint hype fat raina based on one ipl season . He got dropped from Indian team as embarrassing against short ball this ipl proves nothing on this front . In 50 over they will target this weakness 

 

raina what has he done in fc cricket over last year ? Looks like he spent most of his time eating