Sri Lanka: A country trapped in debt

[zen]

When it comes to budget in respect to solving all problems optimally, Ind is like the person with a short blanket. Try to cover the feet, the head is exposed, and vice versa 

 

Modi can only pick a few issues to focus on at the moment. For the rest, he will have to lay down his vision, which the country (including the citizens) is expected to follow up with. We need ppl to ask themselves that the PM is asking for a Swacch Bharat so let us take the initiative to keep it clean

 

Unless the citizens coperate, no matter what the govt does, it would always be less. I recall an incidence where I asked someone not to litter in Ind (some time ago). The response that I got was that because he is paying taxes, he expects govt (muncipalties or whatever) to keep things clean for him. With such attitude, progress will usually be limited 

 

Another issue is the clean Ganga project. We want govt to turn the river pristine. Govt should take such initiatives, but people should also take the initiative to stop polluting the Ganga. It should not be like we will keep polluting the Ganga until govt does something about it 

 

If we want government to do everything for us, we might as well encourage turning Ind in to a police state 

 

Edited August 4, 2017 by zen

[sandeep]

4 hours ago, G_B_ said:

@sandeep

 

what you are suggesting needs money. Lots of it. While Modi did get low oil prices as a bonus he also got a central government with a budget deficit of 4% of GDP and a banking system riddled with NPAs. Honestly the government just does not have enough funds to pump into the states for these sort of endavours. Keep in mind India was a fragile 5 economy just before Modi took over. He inherited a mess from the previous government.

 

You cant blame him for being responsible by trying to get the deficit in check. Its should be down to 3.2% next year as a result of efficiency measures. 

These are more fundamental things he has had to tackle to keep the country afloat. Apart from the oil prices he inherited a very poor position. Considering multiple reforms have been passed to ensure that the NPA's dont accumulate at this rate again and the GST being a landmark bill allowing government to get more taxes (which can be pumped into sanitary measures) you need to give him time.

 

By all accounts IMO come 2019 India should be growing at a stable 8% come 2019. You also mention low oil prices. keep in mind oil prices at the pump are a function of barrel of oil in USD and the USD to INR exchange rate. The rupee when Modi has taken over was around 61 and is currently at 64 over 3 years. So there have been a stability which has allowed the government to take reap the benefits of the low oil price. Cause is oil was $50 and USD INR was Rs75 all the benefits of the drop would be lost.

GB, I give him and his econ team credit for not using the oil boon to perpetuate the subsidy nonsense.  Some good things have been done on that front.    But let's not justify the lack of follow-through and execution on something as basic as trash collection, with the "we have no money" excuse.  It simply does not hold water.   

 

And I'm not going to give the Modi adminstration too much credit for getting the "landmark GST bill" passed.  The same bill that they opposed when Congress was in power.   

[sandeep]

12 hours ago, Tibarn said:

If you think that they aren't going fast enough, then I could see that as a fair criticism, but  If you think that SBM is a PR exercise and all the numbers are cooked, then there isn't much to discuss.

Your post itself quotes "Modern and Scientific solid Municipal waste management" as one of the primary objectives - 1 out of 6.  And one that's a pre-requisite to cleaner public spaces.   Sure reducing ODF is important, and I understand the importance of it.  But why is there almost zero progress on municipal waste management?  

 

I'm not dismissing the entire SBM exercise as a PR stunt - but I'm definitely skeptical on the "numbers" driven snake oil pitch - certainly not going to take it as gospel on face value.   

 

1 hour ago, zen said:

Another issue is the clean Ganga project. We want govt to turn the river pristine. Govt should take such initiatives, but people should also take the initiative to stop polluting the Ganga. It should not be like we will keep polluting the Ganga until govt does something about it 

 

If we want government to do everything for us, we might as well encourage turning Ind in to a police state 

Zen,

 

No need to wax philosophical on me about civic responsibility.  Modi has had 3 years as PM and as an elected representative of the Kashi district.   What concrete steps has he taken on the Namaami Gange clean-up?   

 

Banjo, the BJP can pass laws banning cow slaughter in a matter of hours - up-ending established industries such as leather, meat etc, but you are telling me that it can't take action against other businesses and factories that are constantly dumping filth into one of our most important rivers??   Maybe because its not politically expedient to act against the folks who own those factories?   

 

Far easier to make PR noises about cleaning up the river, announcing mega-projects etc.    I strongly suspect you don't even need new laws and bills passed to get the factories on the riverbanks to clean up their act - They are likely in violation of existing laws already.   Just need to enforce it.  

 

How long does it take to build a sewage treatment facility?   At least get some basic processes in place, and iteratively make it better over time.   Here's an example of something that can be done - not just for the Ganga River, but all over India - solar-powered trash cleaning barge, been around since 2008.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mr._Trash_Wheel

 

Why hasn't anything like this even been considered?  

 

 

Kaam Karo.  Sirf Mann ki baatein mat karo. 

 

 

 

 

[Caulifla]

This number of spineless neighbors will hurt India eventually. Every single country is being sold out to the Chinese, and that's a big concern.

[zen]

41 minutes ago, sandeep said:

 

Kaam Karo.  Sirf Mann ki baatein mat karo. 

Agree with the general sentiments. But there are issues such as https://www.google.ca/amp/m.timesofindia.com/india/100-bridges-on-the-verge-of-collapse-need-urgent-attention-gadkari/amp_articleshow/59906156.cms

 

It is not like the govt came to power with old issues already addressed, a big budget and an optimal system in place where it could focus on new issues and projects only 

 

Many folks realize that changes will not be instant. I would give the govt 10 years at least. The citizens would need to take initiatives too, which is why constantly communicating the vision is imp . There is the need to drive cultural (and attitude) change in Ind if the country expects to go to the next level

 

 

 

Edited August 4, 2017 by zen

[sandeep]

30 minutes ago, zen said:

Agree with the general sentiments. But there are issues such as https://www.google.ca/amp/m.timesofindia.com/india/100-bridges-on-the-verge-of-collapse-need-urgent-attention-gadkari/amp_articleshow/59906156.cms

 

So walking and chewing gum at the same time is beyond the capacity of this administration?  There are different departments within a government.  Why is ISRO going to Mars and the Moon while these bridges are falling apart.  

 

30 minutes ago, zen said:

Many folks realize that changes will not be instant. I would give the govt 10 years at least. The citizens would need to take initiatives too, which is why constantly communicating the vision is imp . There is the need to drive cultural (and attitude) change in Ind if the country expects to go to the next level

Agreed that major changes can't be accomplished overnight.  But Modi wasn't sworn in last week or last month.  Or even last year.  3 years is a good amount of time to start demonstrating progress.   In 3 years, Modi government could and should have built hundreds, or at the very minimum dozens of trash processing facilities.  Or even taken ONE city or state as a model to implement a prototypical building plan.   Has it?  Why not?  I'm sorry, I don't buy the excuse that there are old bridges that need to be repaired so we couldn't do this.  That's BS.  And so is all this passing the buck to "citizens".  

Citizens can't get the municipal authorities to implement a garbage collection schedule.  The government can.   With one phone call, and one memo, the Modi government can get city and state governments to prioritize this.  And its not a funding issue.  It would cost a few measly crores to get this going.  Give them 6 months to come up with a plan, another 6 months to start implementing the first steps.  They have had 3 years.   But this hasn't been done.   No amount of pretty little infographics and bar charts can disguise this.  And neither can sermons on civic responsibilities.    

Edited August 4, 2017 by sandeep

[sandeep]

1 hour ago, Caulifla said:

This number of spineless neighbors will hurt India eventually. Every single country is being sold out to the Chinese, and that's a big concern.

India's inertia and lack of hard work has hurt us, and will keep hurting us.  No need to blame "neighbors".    If India had its own **** together then the opportunities for China to take advantage would have been automatically reduced.   

[sandeep]

18 hours ago, surajmal said:

How much money do you think it will take to make (and keep) India swachch?

Money is not the issue, we have it.   Its a question of will, and work.   Make it a priority, allocate the available resources, and follow through on the work.   Trash collection and disposal is not rocket science.   So many poor unemployed people available all over India, willing to do dirty work for little $$$.   Government is not using the available systems, resources and even money, at its disposal.  Simply because of lack of accountability.  

[zen]

1 hour ago, sandeep said:

So walking and chewing gum at the same time is beyond the capacity of this administration?  There are different departments within a government.  Why is ISRO going to Mars and the Moon while these bridges are falling apart.  

 

Agreed that major changes can't be accomplished overnight.  But Modi wasn't sworn in last week or last month.  Or even last year.  3 years is a good amount of time to start demonstrating progress.   In 3 years, Modi government could and should have built hundreds, or at the very minimum dozens of trash processing facilities.  Or even taken ONE city or state as a model to implement a prototypical building plan.   Has it?  Why not?  I'm sorry, I don't buy the excuse that there are old bridges that need to be repaired so we couldn't do this.  That's BS.  And so is all this passing the buck to "citizens".  

Citizens can't get the municipal authorities to implement a garbage collection schedule.  The government can.   With one phone call, and one memo, the Modi government can get city and state governments to prioritize this.  And its not a funding issue.  It would cost a few measly crores to get this going.  Give them 6 months to come up with a plan, another 6 months to start implementing the first steps.  They have had 3 years.   But this hasn't been done.   No amount of pretty little infographics and bar charts can disguise this.  And neither can sermons on civic responsibilities.    

Using military strategy, it is not advisable to open too many fronts (or bite more than one can chew)

 

ISRO is more efficient than the infrastructure department where corruption can be relatively more prevalent. Which is why rockets go to space and bridges fall. The skill levels of respective staff is not comparable too. Cleaning initiatives would be a part of infrastructure department 

 

Considering the challenges and legacy issues, 3 yrs is not a long enough period to see noticable changes in areas being discussed. As I said, many folks think of 10 yrs as the period where changes can be noticable or "felt"

 

Guj is a well developed state in Ind, (may be the Switzerland of India relatively speaking), and it took a considerable long time to "feel" the changes. Please refer to Sabarmati Project, which already serves as the role model. Now consider, how backward the many of the parts in Ind are and therefore the time and effort required 

 

Muncipalties are already a part of respective governments. If they have not been functioning efficiently for 7 decades, it is unrealistic to assume that a phone call will change things  .... If a phone call changed things, we would not be discussing this topic 

 

For things to change with a phone call, a cultural (and attitude) change needs to happen for Ind and to see it go to the next level

 

What is positive so far is that Modi has a great vision for Ind and is trying to initiate a response from the citizens to make a positive difference

 

Now if ppl want to criticize the PM for having the vision, can we infer that Ind would be better off with someone having no vision at all and who is happy to maintain the status-quo, therefore doing a good job in critics' opinion as since nothing was promised, there was no failure to deliver on the promise! 

 

 

Edited August 4, 2017 by zen

[Tibarn]

2 hours ago, sandeep said:

Your post itself quotes "Modern and Scientific solid Municipal waste management" as one of the primary objectives - 1 out of 6.  And one that's a pre-requisite to cleaner public spaces.   Sure reducing ODF is important, and I understand the importance of it.  

Sure, there are 6 objectives, and all 6 should be achieved, but I don't think all 6 are equally important. It's up to each person to determine how important progress in each objective of SBM is.  In my eyes, in terms of importance, >90% of the importance is related to ODF(making the toilets and getting them 100% usage). 

 

You are free to disagree and call the SBM inadequate, failure, etc.

 

Quote

But why is there almost zero progress on municipal waste management?  

In my opinion, the bulk of the resources invested are being invested in creating the toilets and spreading public health awareness.

 

I don't think resources will be allocated to creating modern and scientific solid waste management until after the ODF related goals will be closer to completion. 

http://www.business-standard.com/article/economy-policy/swachh-bharat-mission-toilet-building-frenzy-takes-focus-off-waste-management-115111900938_1.html

Quote

According to the Ministry of Drinking Water and Sanitation (MoDWS), of the 111.15 million rural households that were without toilets in the 2012 baseline survey, 16.54 million have been covered under SBM (Rural) to date. The Centre for Policy Research’s Budget Briefs report on SBM (Rural) shows allocation for the initiative in 2015-16 was increased by 27 per cent over the previous financial year to Rs 3,625 crore. MoDWS data also show that Rs 5,233.22 crore has already been spent on the programme in rural India so far this financial year, compared with the Rs 2,240.58 crore released for SBM. 

 

However, the Budget Briefs report says: “Construction activities account for the bulk of SBM (Rural) expenditure. In 2014-15, over 90 per cent of rural sanitation funds were allocated for construction of different types of toilets... IEC activities constituted only five per cent of the total SBM expenditure...”

There are finite resources, and the bulk of the resources are being used to target ODF. 

 

As of June 2017, there is 23.2% total waste processing in the country.

http://swachhbharaturban.gov.in/writereaddata/Statewise_status_of_implementation.pdf

 

There is also the fact that some states are ruled by useless governments. This article was from 2015

http://www.business-standard.com/article/economy-policy/swachh-bharat-fund-13-states-spend-below-50-on-rural-sanitation-115112000040_1.html

Quote

The financial progress data of the states show that while Goa has not spent any money on the Swachh Bharat programme, Mizoram has spent 5.07 per cent of its funds. Jammu and Kashmir has spent 10.18 per cent and Bihar 18.24 per cent. Uttar Pradesh has spent 38 per cent.
 

Some state governments are so incompetent that they don't even spend money on the issue. Ultimately, progress is going to be limited by state and municipal government competence.

 

 

 

  

[surajmal]

3 hours ago, sandeep said:

Money is not the issue, we have it.   Its a question of will, and work.   Make it a priority, allocate the available resources, and follow through on the work.   Trash collection and disposal is not rocket science.   So many poor unemployed people available all over India, willing to do dirty work for little $$$.   Government is not using the available systems, resources and even money, at its disposal.  Simply because of lack of accountability.  

ummm... No. First check the numbers. I would give you links but with your modi baiting, you have betrayed, nay, openly declared your congressiyat. Which is ridiculous because even the most ardent Congis attack NDA only on a single issue (comparing everything else would be pretty idiotic). So all you have managed to do is (intentionally) derail a thread. 

 

 

[sandeep]

4 hours ago, zen said:

Using military strategy, it is not advisable to open too many fronts (or bite more than one can chew)

 

ISRO is more efficient than the infrastructure department where corruption can be relatively more prevalent. Which is why rockets go to space and bridges fall. The skill levels of respective staff is not comparable too. Cleaning initiatives would be a part of infrastructure department 

 

Considering the challenges and legacy issues, 3 yrs is not a long enough period to see noticable changes in areas being discussed. As I said, many folks think of 10 yrs as the period where changes can be noticable or "felt"

 

Guj is a well developed state in Ind, (may be the Switzerland of India relatively speaking), and it took a considerable long time to "feel" the changes. Please refer to Sabarmati Project, which already serves as the role model. Now consider, how backward the many of the parts in Ind are and therefore the time and effort required 

 

Muncipalties are already a part of respective governments. If they have not been functioning efficiently for 7 decades, it is unrealistic to assume that a phone call will change things  .... If a phone call changed things, we would not be discussing this topic 

 

For things to change with a phone call, a cultural (and attitude) change needs to happen for Ind and to see it go to the next level

 

What is positive so far is that Modi has a great vision for Ind and is trying to initiate a response from the citizens to make a positive difference

 

Now if ppl want to criticize the PM for having the vision, can we infer that Ind would be better off with someone having no vision at all and who is happy to maintain the status-quo, therefore doing a good job in critics' opinion as since nothing was promised, there was no failure to deliver on the promise! 

 

 

You want "more time" for Modi to do his thing.  Fine.  Again, I'm not saying current govt should have gotten everything done in 3 years, but show some steps in the right direction.  3 years is enough to do something, anything in terms of the Ganga cleanup.   This is Modi's own constituency that he represents in parliament.   Why hasn't there been more progress on this?

[sandeep]

2 hours ago, surajmal said:

ummm... No. First check the numbers. I would give you links but with your modi baiting, you have betrayed, nay, openly declared your congressiyat. Which is ridiculous because even the most ardent Congis attack NDA only on a single issue (comparing everything else would be pretty idiotic). So all you have managed to do is (intentionally) derail a thread. 

 

 

So anybody who's dissatisfied with Modi, is guilty of "congressiyat".   I feel pity for you if you truly believe that.   why stop there? why not accuse me of being Pakistani?   

 

Reality is, I was hoping that the BJP govt would perform a lot better than it has in this term.   And I'm disappointed.   I have never supported Congress in my life, and those geniuses are going about ensuring the same for quite some time anyway.  But that doesn't mean I have to settle for below-par performances by the current government.   

 

And in terms of "Checking the numbers", our friend Tibarn has posted a bunch of data on this thread - and he clearly writes - "some states are not even spending the money allocated under SB program".   So my point about the will, and work, does hold true.  

Edited August 4, 2017 by sandeep

[zen]

1 hour ago, sandeep said:

You want "more time" for Modi to do his thing.  Fine.  Again, I'm not saying current govt should have gotten everything done in 3 years, but show some steps in the right direction.  3 years is enough to do something, anything in terms of the Ganga cleanup.   This is Modi's own constituency that he represents in parliament.   Why hasn't there been more progress on this?

Say there are two villages. One has floods, while the other has draught. If the leader goes to village A, the opposition complains that he did not go to B first and vice versa

 

Are you implying that nothing is being done on the Ganga project? Let's not forget that Yogi has been appointed as the CM now so that will further help such projects

 

 Let's not forget that at "any" point there can always be "more" progress. That "more" needs to be defined

 

As the PM, Modi would worry about the whole country not just his constituency. He was elected from Barado too, iirc, but vacated that seat

[sandeep]

10 minutes ago, zen said:

Let's not forget that at "any" point there can always be "more" progress. That "more" needs to be defined

 

Forget "More".  How about demonstrating "some" progress in a thousand days.  3 years is actually more than a thousand days.  What concrete steps have been taken in terms of infrastructure to clean Ganga river.  I don't need to explain to you the importance of this river for all Indians, especially Hindus like us.   

[zen]

2 minutes ago, sandeep said:

Forget "More".  How about demonstrating "some" progress in a thousand days.  3 years is actually more than a thousand days.  What concrete steps have been taken in terms of infrastructure to clean Ganga river.  I don't need to explain to you the importance of this river for all Indians, especially Hindus like us.   

Planning, allocating budget, appointing a team to oversee the project, inviting bids, etc., count as concrete steps and progress 

 

 

[Tibarn]

Back on topic...

https://swarajyamag.com/politics/a-chinese-fairy-tale-that-might-turn-into-a-nightmare-for-pakistan?utm_content=buffer1b74c&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

Quote

Trade figures for the first half of 2016 show that Chinese imports into Pakistan have surged by nearly 30 per cent. This reflects a huge surge in power-generating material, construction and mining equipment and agricultural machinery – more or less what would be expected going by the above script.

However, there has also been an 8 per cent drop in Pakistan’s exports to China – a surprise given the improving transport links between the two countries. Islamabad has publicly blamed barriers to Pakistani exports that Beijing has put in place and a free trade agreement that is tilted against Pakistan, throwing into question Beijing’s motives in building the corridor.

The Chinese imports have contributed to a surge in Pakistan’s trade deficit: This rose 77.34 per cent in March, year on year. Worse, Pakistan’s current account deficit widened a staggering 121 per cent between July last year and February. Pakistan is heading for a current account deficit, as a percentage of GDP, about double that of India’s. The deficit is also remarkable given the supposed billions of dollars of Chinese investment that was supposed to come into the country with the corridor. In fact FDI into Pakistan during that same eight-month period was less than $1.3 billion, underlining how much of the corridor is being financed by debt or by intra-Chinese transfers.

Some Pakistani economists are already fretting about what this could mean. Estimates show Pakistan will have to pay $90 billion back to China over the next 30 years because of the corridor. This is not impossible, so long as Pakistan attracts capital and exports more during that time. The present export and FDI figures, however, show no evidence of this happening.

So far, the benefits seem to be accruing solely on Beijing’s side of the ledger. If this trend continues as the CPEC expands and develops, Pakistan’s fairy tale may slowly metamorphose into a horror movie.

 Padosiland going the Lankan way. 

[sandeep]

On 8/5/2017 at 0:28 PM, Tibarn said:

Back on topic...

https://swarajyamag.com/politics/a-chinese-fairy-tale-that-might-turn-into-a-nightmare-for-pakistan?utm_content=buffer1b74c&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

 Padosiland going the Lankan way. 

Wait until the Chinese companies start ramping up the agriculture section of the great CPEC - while the connected ones will make their chavvanni commissions, the average Pakistani farmer is going to start hurting.   

[velu]

On 03/08/2017 at 8:42 PM, jusarrived said:

I visited SL few years back , if anything for a SC country their infra was top notch . Even remote areas had good roads .

i meant these unnecessary infrastructure projects like ghost airports and ghost ports ..

these things lead to the downfall of greece and to some extent spain

[KeyboardWarrior]

thread topic is Srilanka and few people are dragging pakistan into this thread .....