Thommo - how quick was he?'

[Vijy]

Just now, Malcolm Merlyn said:

 

 

How fast is this @3.18

it was undoubtedly fast, but what makes it look more deadly is the late swing, lara's exaggerated backlift and of course falling down. I don't know what the speed, but I'd guess around 90 mph.

[Malcolm Merlyn]

 
Yes ... it was around 1991 or 1992.

Infact i found out.It was in 1998.

[express bowling]

33 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

 

 

What i've heard/read from the experts is that if you were to take 3 bowlers of the late 70s/80s and call them the fastest, day in, day out, it'd be Holding, Thommo and Hogg. Imran was apparently inconsistent with his speeds, which would make sense given his batting workload and his injury concerns. 

 

 

 

I have watched Holding bowl a lot in 1983.   He still looked decently quick but slower than Marshall who was young.

 

But Marshall was up and down in pace, perhaps slowed somewhat  when he went for swing.  Holding, on the other hand, maintained his pace.... whatever that pace was.  And Daniel and Baptiste were the slowest.

 

Saw Hogg in a couple of ODIs and he was nasty.

[Malcolm Merlyn]

I am sure i have seen a video of Waqar Younis bowling, in NZ or SA.It was on youtube but since removed i believe.In that videi he was clocked at 150ks.

[Malcolm Merlyn]

it was undoubtedly fast, but what makes it look more deadly is the late swing, lara's exaggerated backlift and of course falling down. I don't know what the speed, but I'd guess around 90 mph.

Its not easy to beat BC Lara that easily.1997, Lara at his peak.

[express bowling]

4 minutes ago, Malcolm Merlyn said:

31 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

Infact i found out.It was in 1998.

 

I don't recall that.

 

I remember Donald bowling 153 k in 1991 or 1992.

 

And being called equally quick as Waqar as he too clocked 153 k

Edited October 8, 2017 by express bowling

[Vijy]

2 minutes ago, Malcolm Merlyn said:

9 minutes ago, Vijy said:

it was undoubtedly fast, but what makes it look more deadly is the late swing, lara's exaggerated backlift and of course falling down. I don't know what the speed, but I'd guess around 90 mph.

Its not easy to beat BC Lara that easily.1997, Lara at his peak.

yes, but it was as much as the ball's trajectory as the speed that beat him. waqar at his pomp had both.

[Muloghonto]

3 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

I have watched Holding bowl a lot in 1983.   He still looked decently quick but slower than Marshall who was young.

 

But Marshall was up and down in pace, perhaps slowed somewhat  when he went for swing.  Holding, on the other hand, maintained his pace.... whatever that pace was.  And Daniel and Baptiste were the slowest.

 

Saw Hogg in a couple of ODIs and he was nasty.

 

Marshall when he came on the scene (i remember his debut series)- he was military medium. His action was less chest-on. 

Then he became hugely fast and kind of sling-y, from 80 or 81. Can't remember. Next time i saw Marshall, he was blazing quick. 

Holding still looked as fast as him in 81, but then started to run out of gas when he became 30+ and instead of giving a chance of adapting, was cut off the team. He actually kept on bowling brilliantly and sometimes very fast too, in the mid 80s in county. but WI back then, were too good a bowling lineup for practically anyone to survive a lean-stretch after hitting 30. They too had the 'getting old, chuck him, get the new big guy with blazing speed in' mentality. 

 

[Vijy]

Just now, Muloghonto said:

 

Marshall when he came on the scene (i remember his debut series)- he was military medium. His action was less chest-on. 

Then he became hugely fast and kind of sling-y, from 80 or 81. Can't remember. Next time i saw Marshall, he was blazing quick. 

Holding still looked as fast as him in 81, but then started to run out of gas when he became 30+ and instead of giving a chance of adapting, was cut off the team. He actually kept on bowling brilliantly and sometimes very fast too, in the mid 80s in county. but WI back then, were too good a bowling lineup for practically anyone to survive a lean-stretch after hitting 30. They too had the 'getting old, chuck him, get the new big guy with blazing speed in' mentality. 

 

WI had always had pacers who were fast for some period of time (either short or long). Patterson was pretty nasty too.

[Muloghonto]

1 minute ago, Vijy said:

WI had always had pacers who were fast for some period of time (either short or long). Patterson was pretty nasty too.

yep. another one gone to the wastes. Its kind of jaw-dropping, how deep and good their pace battery from mid 70s to early 90s was. Almost any one of them- even lesser names like Clarke,Davis, etc. could almost walk into any other team of their time in merit alone. Above them, there were the wasted 'what-ifs' like Croft, Bishop & Patterson. Also, sure-fire locks in virtually every team of their era. 

Above them, the pool is one jaw-dropping mix of Roberts, Holding, Marshall, Walsh, Ambrose, Garner. 

 

 

[Vijy]

2 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

yep. another one gone to the wastes. Its kind of jaw-dropping, how deep and good their pace battery from mid 70s to early 90s was. Almost any one of them- even lesser names like Clarke,Davis, etc. could almost walk into any other team of their time in merit alone. Above them, there were the wasted 'what-ifs' like Croft, Bishop & Patterson. Also, sure-fire locks in virtually every team of their era. 

Above them, the pool is one jaw-dropping mix of Roberts, Holding, Marshall, Walsh, Ambrose, Garner. 

 

 

not to forget gray (tony gray). he was rated as being better than croft by some contemporaries. ended up with a stellar record in the few tests and ODIs he played.

[express bowling]

15 minutes ago, Vijy said:

not to forget gray (tony gray). he was rated as being better than croft by some contemporaries. ended up with a stellar record in the few tests and ODIs he played.

 

WI pace battery started to decline when bounce and intimidation stopped being the primary weapons  in a pacer's armoury.

 

Walsh and Ambrose became amazingly skilled in the later parts of their careers .... but the new ones could not adapt.

Edited October 8, 2017 by express bowling

[Muloghonto]

22 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

WI pace battery started to decline when bounce and intimidation stopped being the primary weapons  in a pacer's armoury.

 

Walsh and Ambrose became amazingly skilled in the later parts of their careers .... but the new ones could not adapt.

No, i think they declined because they ran out of depth and poor management. 

The situation changed drastically between 1990 and 1996, when they still had Patterson, Ambrose, Walsh, Bishop, all looking good. Then all of a sudden, their pace battery threw up a few lemons and lost Bishop, patterson etc to injury & motivation issues and their cupboard was dry.

Story of the WI in the 90s - which also made them so intoxicating to watch - was Walsh-Ambrose running away with the game, with a combination of brutal intimidation or choking vice-like grip on runs & rhythm of the batsmen or the opposition doing just enough to resist the 1-2 punch of 'Ambrose-Walsh are firing and one of Lara-Hooper is gonna come through with the bat' combo. 

But since they lacked a system to develop bowlers, once cricketing interest waned in the carribean, their pace batter ran dry. 

Big tall men from the caribbean re not cricket-prioritized, they are Basketball prioritized. As they should be- you make a helluva lot more $$ being an Ok basketball player than an OK cricket player there. 

[express bowling]

9 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

No, i think they declined because they ran out of depth and poor management. 

Happened or rather intensified later.

9 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

 

But since they lacked a system to develop bowlers, once cricketing interest waned in the carribean, their pace batter ran dry. 

 

I think thee waning of interest happened from the mid 2000s.

 

9 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Big tall men from the caribbean re not cricket-prioritized, they are Basketball prioritized. As they should be- you make a helluva lot more $$ being an Ok basketball player than an OK cricket player there. 

 

We are seeing lots of tall men like Holder, Brathwaite, Pollard, Gayle, Gabriel, Joseph, Cummins, Thomas etc. nowadays

 

More than the  1976 to 1985 team had.

 

Also, height is not mandatory for a fast bowler if you have the skills like Marshall. Even Roberts was around 6'1", not super tall.

[Rightarmfast]

1 hour ago, Malcolm Merlyn said:

 

 

How fast is this @3.18

The actual speed should be around 138.Max 140-142.. I can say that with a lot of certainty. But hear the commentator saying it was 100 mph!!! 

[express bowling]

7 minutes ago, Rightarmfast said:

. But hear the commentator saying it was 100 mph!!! 

 

This is the kind of baseless and without-information statements by commentators and experts that we are opposing here.

 

2 years later, with regular speed-gun usage.... Waqar struggled to touch 88 mph .... and here they are talking about 100 mph  !

[Muloghonto]

31 minutes ago, express bowling said:

Happened or rather intensified later.

I think thee waning of interest happened from the mid 2000s.

 

 

We are seeing lots of tall men like Holder, Brathwaite, Pollard, Gayle, Gabriel, Joseph, Cummins, Thomas etc. nowadays

 

More than the  1976 to 1985 team had.

 

Also, height is not mandatory for a fast bowler if you have the skills like Marshall. Even Roberts was around 6'1", not super tall.

No definitely not more than the 76-85 team had. Big tall men, may just a consequence driver from Basketball ultimately these days. 

By their 'pipeline running dry', i didnt mean that just big strong men were good pacers and their lack of it, caused the decline. Their pipeline dried up for ANY good pace bowling talent, as it naturally would with waning interest. 

Most carribean people peg waning interest in the late 80s/early 90s due to Jordan. If you take a minute with most carribean english-speaking people in NA, you will quickly realize, Jordan is king of all carribean sports culture of that period. Atleast, even amongst Jamaicans and thats saying a lot. 

This caused a seismic shift in the quality of school cricket being played in the carribean, which was a direct feeder to their FC system.

 

[Muloghonto]

4 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

This is the kind of baseless and without-information statements by commentators and experts that we are opposing here.

 

2 years later, with regular speed-gun usage.... Waqar struggled to touch 88 mph .... and here they are talking about 100 mph  !

Yes but to be fair, the Waqar who was regularly clocked, day in day out, was Waqar after multiple stress fractures. 

 I can see him being high 140s-low 150s regularly at his peak because he did bowl fuller lengths more often and they do tend to be the faster deliveries of bowlers.

 

[rkt.india]

11 hours ago, express bowling said:

Ha ha

 

Anyone saw this incident in the SL -Pakistan match at around 22.50 IST today

 

Experts Danny Morrison and Roshan Abesinghe saying that Wahab Riaz bowling with a lot of pace, working up good speeds etc.  ( after he bowled a couple of bouncers, one of which got a wicket )

 

Telecasters immediately show fastest ball  135 k and average speed 131 k      

 

So much of what the experts say about speeds depend on their perceptions based on the reputation of the bowler, effective bouncers bowled etc.

yes a lot of it is perception. Same was the case with McGrath. People used to think if he is taking wickets he must be bowling 150.

[rkt.india]

11 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

Again, they don't have to tell the speed of the ball in terms of value. I am NOT claiming a human being can see a ball (Cricket, tennis,whatever) coming at him and go 'hmm. that was 88mph, the previous one was 92mph'. I am saying that a human being, especially elite level athletes with decades of experience, can see a 88mph ball and categorically say' this ball is slower than the previous one' if the previous one was at 91mph.

 

Yes, they can say what was slower, what was faster. It also depends on batsmen's reaction when he is expecting and but bowler bowls a yorker which surprises him and reacts late and gets out.