Hasn't ball tampering always been a concerted effort?

[MechEng]

I have always believed that ball tampering gets a negative outlook because it violates the fairplay in the game or to put it in layman words it disturbs the balance of the game. I would agree with this view if test cricket is played only in England, where ball swings in air naturally and pitches are good for batting, so it's a balanced contest and ball tampering would tilt this balance in favour of bowlers. In Pakistan though batting is heavily dominant and bowlers have very less influence, so ball tampering is actually good because it brings balance to the otherwise batting dominant cricket in Asia. So perspective plays an important role in fairplay in my opinion.

 

@Gollum, what do you think?

Edited April 11, 2018 by MechEng

[Tattieboy]

13 minutes ago, MechEng said:

I have always believed that ball tampering gets a negative outlook because it violates the fairplay in the game or to put it in layman words it disturbs the balance of the game. I would agree with this view if test cricket is played only in England, where ball swings in air naturally and pitches are good for batting, so it's a balanced contest and ball tampering would tilt this balance in favour of bowlers. In Pakistan though batting is heavily dominant and bowlers have very less influence, so ball tampering is actually good because it brings balance to the otherwise batting dominant cricket in Asia. So perspective plays an important role in fairplay in my opinion.

 

@Gollum, what do you think?

So ball tampering Willbe legal in Asia....How much are you going to allow? Bottle tops? Sandpaper? , Knives? ....how much of the ball will be allowed to be destroyed? SMDH!!!

[Gollum]

1 hour ago, MechEng said:

I have always believed that ball tampering gets a negative outlook because it violates the fairplay in the game or to put it in layman words it disturbs the balance of the game. I would agree with this view if test cricket is played only in England, where ball swings in air naturally and pitches are good for batting, so it's a balanced contest and ball tampering would tilt this balance in favour of bowlers. In Pakistan though batting is heavily dominant and bowlers have very less influence, so ball tampering is actually good because it brings balance to the otherwise batting dominant cricket in Asia. So perspective plays an important role in fairplay in my opinion.

 

@Gollum, what do you think?

IMO it shouldn't be allowed because cricket should be played under the same set of rules in all countries. Test cricket is played seriously in only 6-7 countries and if we can't enforce same rules across the limited spectrum then cricket will become a joke. Moreover who decides how to tamper? Pak may prefer knives, India may prefer graters, Aussies may say sandpaper. If ICC were to introduce a common tampering tool again one team may tamper less, other team may tamper more and based on the match result, teams/fans/experts will whine about the extent of cheating(tampering) and what not.

 

If UAE pitches are producing lifeless decks it is their curator's fault. Any pitch can be made to have balance between bat and ball, only the path to get the balance may be different. Eng may have more swing (and seam) but UAE decks can be turners if the curator designs them so. Playing high quality spin of Yasir Shah and Shadab will also be a challenge for the batsmen and balance can be restored, just like England tests your skill set against movement in air, UAE can test batsmen differently. Also quicks aren't ruled out in UAE, they just play a supporting role to the spinners just like how spinners play the helping hand outside Asia. Moreover with abrasive, dry outfields in the desert the ball will reverse naturally without tampering/illegal way if the teams know how to land the ball while throwing to the keeper and how to maintain it. And although it is assumed that Eng/Aus/SA helps pacers more than SC, pacers can be wicket takers in this part of the world also. Think of SA, how do pacers pick wickets? Mostly caught keeper or caught in cordon right? LBWs and bowleds are rare because of high bounce. But in Asia pacers have more options to pick wickets if they have the brains and skill sets. Unlike SA in UAE (and other SC countries) a quick can get you LBW/bowled (low bounce) more frequently. Caught behinds and caught at slips will be rarer but if the pitch is double paced, the quick can entice false shots and caught at covers, caught at mid wicket etc will be more common. In SA there are 2-3  ways for quicks to get the batsmen out, in the desert there can be 5-6 ways. Perfect example is Chaminda Vaas. He didn't have the pace and mostly played on pitches which were tailor made for Murali. Yet he played 100+ tests and got 350+ wickets, he was one bowler who absolutely mastered the art of bowling (legal ways) on Asain decks. He would hardly bowl loose balls, always attack the stumps with subtle movement both ways, hence got many LBWs and clean bowleds. He also used change of pace on the sluggish Lankan wickets to frequently get the batsmen to scoop the cover drive uppishly to covers and leg glances in the hands of close in fielders. Remember how Mcgrath-Gillespie strangled our batting line up in 2004 series? They made run scoring mighty difficult and collected scalps because of our unforced errors...one of the greatest exhibitions of fast bowling I have ever seen. In Aus they would pitch outside the off stump on good length and search for the edge, here in India they relentlessly attacked the stumps and with their subtle changes in movement/pace and watertight fielding placements created havoc in the minds of our famed batting line up who weren't used to plunder around at 2 rpo whole day.

 

Bottomline there can be perfect balance between bat-ball even in the desert, if the batsmen are making merry blame the low quality bowlers and the curators. Ofc if you create a concrete highway even great bowlers will be rendered toothless, as was the case in a few of our tests in Aus 2014-15. India has more or less nailed the art of perfect pitch making in the last 2 years, our pitches for NZ home series, Eng home series and 3 of the Aus tests were perfect (Pune was a disgrace), had something for everyone. So it is possible to make balanced pitches in Asia, just that PCB curators aren't up to the mark. Ball tampering with external objects should never be allowed, let the teams do it in the natural way, on Asian outfields it will reverse after 50 odd overs without any illegal means.

Edited April 11, 2018 by Gollum

[MechEng]

7 hours ago, Gollum said:

IMO it shouldn't be allowed because cricket should be played under the same set of rules in all countries. Test cricket is played seriously in only 6-7 countries and if we can't enforce same rules across the limited spectrum then cricket will become a joke. Moreover who decides how to tamper? Pak may prefer knives, India may prefer graters, Aussies may say sandpaper. If ICC were to introduce a common tampering tool again one team may tamper less, other team may tamper more and based on the match result, teams/fans/experts will whine about the extent of cheating(tampering) and what not.

 

If UAE pitches are producing lifeless decks it is their curator's fault. Any pitch can be made to have balance between bat and ball, only the path to get the balance may be different. Eng may have more swing (and seam) but UAE decks can be turners if the curator designs them so. Playing high quality spin of Yasir Shah and Shadab will also be a challenge for the batsmen and balance can be restored, just like England tests your skill set against movement in air, UAE can test batsmen differently. Also quicks aren't ruled out in UAE, they just play a supporting role to the spinners just like how spinners play the helping hand outside Asia. Moreover with abrasive, dry outfields in the desert the ball will reverse naturally without tampering/illegal way if the teams know how to land the ball while throwing to the keeper and how to maintain it. And although it is assumed that Eng/Aus/SA helps pacers more than SC, pacers can be wicket takers in this part of the world also. Think of SA, how do pacers pick wickets? Mostly caught keeper or caught in cordon right? LBWs and bowleds are rare because of high bounce. But in Asia pacers have more options to pick wickets if they have the brains and skill sets. Unlike SA in UAE (and other SC countries) a quick can get you LBW/bowled (low bounce) more frequently. Caught behinds and caught at slips will be rarer but if the pitch is double paced, the quick can entice false shots and caught at covers, caught at mid wicket etc will be more common. In SA there are 2-3  ways for quicks to get the batsmen out, in the desert there can be 5-6 ways. Perfect example is Chaminda Vaas. He didn't have the pace and mostly played on pitches which were tailor made for Murali. Yet he played 100+ tests and got 350+ wickets, he was one bowler who absolutely mastered the art of bowling (legal ways) on Asain decks. He would hardly bowl loose balls, always attack the stumps with subtle movement both ways, hence got many LBWs and clean bowleds. He also used change of pace on the sluggish Lankan wickets to frequently get the batsmen to scoop the cover drive uppishly to covers and leg glances in the hands of close in fielders. Remember how Mcgrath-Gillespie strangled our batting line up in 2004 series? They made run scoring mighty difficult and collected scalps because of our unforced errors...one of the greatest exhibitions of fast bowling I have ever seen. In Aus they would pitch outside the off stump on good length and search for the edge, here in India they relentlessly attacked the stumps and with their subtle changes in movement/pace and watertight fielding placements created havoc in the minds of our famed batting line up who weren't used to plunder around at 2 rpo whole day.

 

Bottomline there can be perfect balance between bat-ball even in the desert, if the batsmen are making merry blame the low quality bowlers and the curators. Ofc if you create a concrete highway even great bowlers will be rendered toothless, as was the case in a few of our tests in Aus 2014-15. India has more or less nailed the art of perfect pitch making in the last 2 years, our pitches for NZ home series, Eng home series and 3 of the Aus tests were perfect (Pune was a disgrace), had something for everyone. So it is possible to make balanced pitches in Asia, just that PCB curators aren't up to the mark. Ball tampering with external objects should never be allowed, let the teams do it in the natural way, on Asian outfields it will reverse after 50 odd overs without any illegal means.

Very good post, I specifically liked the Chaminda Vaas and Australian bowling in 2004 India tour examples. I also believe that if 3-4 bowlers work together as a team, they can get even the most elite batsmen out on a cemented road. For example if the bowlers plan to keep it simple and bland by bowling five out of six deliveries in the corridor of uncertainity, they can bore the batsman and force him to poke at the ball leading to a slip catch. 

 

The video below is a great example of how to bowl on a road. Very simple bowling from Mcgrath, no 150 kph deliveries, no prodigious swing and no steep bounce too, just plain variations in line and length. Just look at the ball which got Nass out, Mcgrath bowls few centimeters shorter than the previous ball and slightly close to the stumps and Nass makes the mistake of coming forward to the ball instead of staying on backfoot and leaving it.

 

 

Edited April 12, 2018 by MechEng

[Gollum]

6 hours ago, MechEng said:

Very good post, I specifically liked the Chaminda Vaas and Australian bowling in 2004 India tour examples. I also believe that if 3-4 bowlers work together as a team, they can get even the most elite batsmen out on a cemented road. For example if the bowlers plan to keep it simple and bland by bowling five out of six deliveries in the corridor of uncertainity, they can bore the batsman and force him to poke at the ball leading to a slip catch. 

 

The video below is a great example of how to bowl on a road. Very simple bowling from Mcgrath, no 150 kph deliveries, no prodigious swing and no steep bounce too, just plain variations in line and length. Just look at the ball which got Nass out, Mcgrath bowls few centimeters shorter than the previous ball and slightly close to the stumps and Nass makes the mistake of coming forward to the ball instead of staying on backfoot and leaving it.

 

 

I prefer no concrete highways tbh, it is killing test cricket. I saw the Mcgrath video and have to say in all my years of watching cricket (post 1998), he is quite simply the greatest fast bowler. The world may produce the Sachins and Steyns and Warnes in the future but a replica of Mcgrath looks nigh impossible. Ordinary mortals can't do what he did, such simplicity yet with such devastating results, if you follow chess you will notice that what Mcgrath did with the cricket ball, Magnus Carlsen does with the chess pieces, opponent feels like he is drowning and can't do anything to stop it, rather than quick kill these 2 are like boa constrictors of their respective fields slowly wrapping the opponents and squeezing the life out of them. Regarding your suggestion about 3-4 bowlers bowling in a group, very few teams have 3-4 bowlers to pull it off and even if they have the personnel statistically not all will fire at the same time. I don't see the fascination with roads tbh, no true cricket fan will ever enjoy 600 meets 500 sort of 1st innings only to watch it meander to a lifeless draw. Rather than penalizing green mambas and rank turners, ICC would do well to ban these boring pattas. You don't even need a patch of grass or flaky dust bowl to bring balance, a sluggish pitch or one with 2 paced nature or slightly uneven bounce will bring the bowlers in the game and give the requisite balance. 

Edited April 12, 2018 by Gollum

[MechEng]

4 minutes ago, Gollum said:

I prefer no concrete highways tbh, it is killing test cricket. I saw the Mcgrath video and have to say in all my years of watching cricket (post 1998), he is quite simply the greatest fast bowler. The world may produce the Sachins and Steyns and Warnes in the future but a replica of Mcgrath looks nigh impossible. Ordinary mortals can't do what he did, such simplicity yet with such devastating results, if you follow chess you will notice that what Mcgrath did with the cricket ball, Magnus Carlsen does with the chess pieces, opponent feels like he is drowning and can't do anything to stop it, rather than quick kill these 2 are like boa constrictors of their respective fields slowly wrapping the opponent and squeezing the life out of them. Regarding your suggestion about 3-4 bowlers bowling in a group, very few teams have 3-4 bowlers to pull it off and even if they have the personnel statistically not all will fire at the same time. I don't see the fascination with roads tbh, no true cricket fan will ever enjoy 600 meets 500 sort of 1st innings only to watch it meander to a lifeless draw. Rather than penalizing green mambas and rank turners, ICC would do well to ban these boring pattas. You don't even need a patch of grass or flaky dust bowl to bring balance, a sluggish pitch or one with 2 paced nature or slightly uneven bounce will bring the bowlers in the game and give the requisite balance. 

Facing Mcgrath must be like watching a Christopher Nolan movie, slight lapse in concentration and you will miss the flow of the movie/lose your wicket.

[Tattieboy]

52 minutes ago, Gollum said:

I prefer no concrete highways tbh, it is killing test cricket. I saw the Mcgrath video and have to say in all my years of watching cricket (post 1998), he is quite simply the greatest fast bowler. The world may produce the Sachins and Steyns and Warnes in the future but a replica of Mcgrath looks nigh impossible. Ordinary mortals can't do what he did, such simplicity yet with such devastating results, if you follow chess you will notice that what Mcgrath did with the cricket ball, Magnus Carlsen does with the chess pieces, opponent feels like he is drowning and can't do anything to stop it, rather than quick kill these 2 are like boa constrictors of their respective fields slowly wrapping the opponents and squeezing the life out of them. Regarding your suggestion about 3-4 bowlers bowling in a group, very few teams have 3-4 bowlers to pull it off and even if they have the personnel statistically not all will fire at the same time. I don't see the fascination with roads tbh, no true cricket fan will ever enjoy 600 meets 500 sort of 1st innings only to watch it meander to a lifeless draw. Rather than penalizing green mambas and rank turners, ICC would do well to ban these boring pattas. You don't even need a patch of grass or flaky dust bowl to bring balance, a sluggish pitch or one with 2 paced nature or slightly uneven bounce will bring the bowlers in the game and give the requisite balance. 

Harder to play a bowler who bowls from a high point deliberately  down.  Because your eyes go up and down you have less time to react than someone who bowls with a flatter  action. 

Add that he 99% of the time put it in the right area and right length that then created further confusion of do I get forward or back add to that a little seam movement and you have a perfect seam bowler 

[Gollum]

11 minutes ago, Tattieboy said:

Harder to play a bowler who bowls from a high point deliberately  down.  Because your eyes go up and down you have less time to react than someone who bowls with a flatter  action. 

Add that he 99% of the time put it in the right area and right length that then created further confusion of do I get forward or back add to that a little seam movement and you have a perfect seam bowler 

That also explains why the tall guys in tennis are such servebots. If you exclude Federer/Sampras the greatest servers of all time are the 190 cm + guys like Isner, Karlovic, Philipoussiss, Kevin Anderson, Raonic, Rusedski, Krajicek, Ivanisevic etc. Even though these giants have a weak baseline game, they are incredibly hard to return because of the big serves and that is the main weapon that helps them play at an elite level. Apart from less reaction time I also guess trigonometry plays a role, the taller the server (or quick bowler) the larger the safety margin, these giants can be less accurate with their lengths and get away with it. Federer and Sampras were such great servers because of high accuracy and precision in the placement of their serves, a very difficult trait to master even for ATG players. An Ishant Sharma in Australia can get away lightly even if his length radar is wrong but a short guy like Shami has to land his ball in a a very narrow  strip, else the ball will just sit up to be smashed or full enough to get driven. All batsmen hate it when they find it difficult to judge whether to commit forward or go back in the crease. Now Mcgrath was not just a giant but also very accurate with his lengths, in tennis terms that would be equivalent to a player with Raonic's height and Federer's placement of serve, almost impossible to return. 

[Tattieboy]

31 minutes ago, Gollum said:

That also explains why the tall guys in tennis are such servebots. If you exclude Federer/Sampras the greatest servers of all time are the 190 cm + guys like Isner, Karlovic, Philipoussiss, Kevin Anderson, Raonic, Rusedski, Krajicek, Ivanisevic etc. Even though these giants have a weak baseline game, they are incredibly hard to return because of the big serves and that is the main weapon that helps them play at an elite level. Apart from less reaction time I also guess trigonometry plays a role, the taller the server (or quick bowler) the larger the safety margin, these giants can be less accurate with their lengths and get away with it. Federer and Sampras were such great servers because of high accuracy and precision in the placement of their serves, a very difficult trait to master even for ATG players. An Ishant Sharma in Australia can get away lightly even if his length radar is wrong but a short guy like Shami has to land his ball in a a very narrow  strip, else the ball will just sit up to be smashed or full enough to get driven. All batsmen hate it when they find it difficult to judge whether to commit forward or go back in the crease. Now Mcgrath was not just a giant but also very accurate with his lengths, in tennis terms that would be equivalent to a player with Raonic's height and Federer's placement of serve, almost impossible to return. 

All the tennis players you mention and Mcgrath do what is called bang it into the surface from a great height . Others skid it along. It is all about reaction time, eyes pick and tell the brain who in turn tells the body where to move . Less movement of the eyes to pick up more time to move in theory guys like Malinga and Thompson should have been easier with low slinging action but all batsmen all their life are visually and mentally trained for higher actions 

[Tattieboy]

46 minutes ago, Gollum said:

That also explains why the tall guys in tennis are such servebots. If you exclude Federer/Sampras the greatest servers of all time are the 190 cm + guys like Isner, Karlovic, Philipoussiss, Kevin Anderson, Raonic, Rusedski, Krajicek, Ivanisevic etc. Even though these giants have a weak baseline game, they are incredibly hard to return because of the big serves and that is the main weapon that helps them play at an elite level. Apart from less reaction time I also guess trigonometry plays a role, the taller the server (or quick bowler) the larger the safety margin, these giants can be less accurate with their lengths and get away with it. Federer and Sampras were such great servers because of high accuracy and precision in the placement of their serves, a very difficult trait to master even for ATG players. An Ishant Sharma in Australia can get away lightly even if his length radar is wrong but a short guy like Shami has to land his ball in a a very narrow  strip, else the ball will just sit up to be smashed or full enough to get driven. All batsmen hate it when they find it difficult to judge whether to commit forward or go back in the crease. Now Mcgrath was not just a giant but also very accurate with his lengths, in tennis terms that would be equivalent to a player with Raonic's height and Federer's placement of serve, almost impossible to return. 

With spinners it the opposite , a very tall spinner bowls from high you low and very difficult to get loop which is what deceives batsmen. As a spinner you are trying to get the ball up and down,  deceiving in the air then turn.  Ashwin does well on turners and collects lots of wickets but he doesn't have good loop for non turners.  Being tall and a chest on action is a disadvantage overseas compared to a normal height spinner with loop 

[Gollum]

9 minutes ago, Tattieboy said:

With spinners it the opposite , a very tall spinner bowls from high you low and very difficult to get loop which is what deceives batsmen. As a spinner you are trying to get the ball up and down,  deceiving in the air then turn.  Ashwin does well on turners and collects lots of wickets but he doesn't have good loop for non turners.  Being tall and a chest on action is a disadvantage overseas compared to a normal height spinner with loop 

That's a good point. Come to think of it the only successful spinners with around 1.9 m height I can think of are Ashwin, Kumble, Vettori and Lance Gibbs.  

Edited April 12, 2018 by Gollum

[Tattieboy]

7 minutes ago, Gollum said:

That's a good point. Come to think of it the only successful spinners with around 1.9 m height I can think of are Ashwin, Kumble, Vettori and Lance Gibbs.  

Vettori and Gibbs a bit different as they rotated  their hips around their front legs which dropped their release action a bit lower and gave them loop.. Batsmen in India are taught at a child age that anything above eye level is a scoring shot against a spinner 

[Gollum]

Vettori and Gibbs a bit different as they rotated  their hips around their front legs which dropped their release action a bit lower and gave them loop.. Batsmen in India are taught at a child age that anything above eye level is a scoring shot against a spinner 

Did you watch Gibbs bowl? How do you evaluate him compared to other great spinners?

Sent from my SM-G350E using Tapatalk

[Tattieboy]

6 hours ago, Gollum said:

Did you watch Gibbs bowl? How do you evaluate him compared to other great spinners?

Sent from my SM-G350E using Tapatalk
 

best off spinner IMO

[putrevus]

18 hours ago, MechEng said:

Very good post, I specifically liked the Chaminda Vaas and Australian bowling in 2004 India tour examples. I also believe that if 3-4 bowlers work together as a team, they can get even the most elite batsmen out on a cemented road. For example if the bowlers plan to keep it simple and bland by bowling five out of six deliveries in the corridor of uncertainity, they can bore the batsman and force him to poke at the ball leading to a slip catch. 

 

The video below is a great example of how to bowl on a road. Very simple bowling from Mcgrath, no 150 kph deliveries, no prodigious swing and no steep bounce too, just plain variations in line and length. Just look at the ball which got Nass out, Mcgrath bowls few centimeters shorter than the previous ball and slightly close to the stumps and Nass makes the mistake of coming forward to the ball instead of staying on backfoot and leaving it.

 

 

This is why I rate Glenn Mcgrath in my top three bowlers of all time, Ambrose and Marshall being other two. Being so consistent in his line and length is one talent people underestimate.

 

Ian Chappell rates Lillee higher than Mcgrath but I don't think Lillee had this ability of being this accurate and consistent.Mcgrath even today would be better than many bowlers.

 

[putrevus]

8 hours ago, Bilal78 said:

 

You bloody hypocrite.

 

kapil was the biggest Tamporer the world has ever seen but he was a truddler so Reverse never worked for him.

 

indians just arnt skilled enough to bowl.

 

hassan Ali is better than any fast bowler you have ever produced.

That is utter tosh, Reverse swing does not need pace that is a myth created by Pakistanis to cover up for their cheating.

The so called inventor of reverse swing Sarfraz was a trundler .

Chris Pringle was trundler and he proved to world that by out bowling all so called pace bowlers.

Show some respect to one of greatest player who has played this game in Kapil Dev.

[rtmohanlal]

14 hours ago, Bilal78 said:

 

You bloody hypocrite.

 

kapil was the biggest Tamporer the world has ever seen but he was a truddler so Reverse never worked for him.

 

indians just arnt skilled enough to bowl.

 

hassan Ali is better than any fast bowler you have ever produced.

I repeat ...mind your words bloody Pakistani  idiot....  call some of your family members  'hypocrite'. bark loudly to show your frustration

in that your legendary kaptaan Khan has  been badly exposed as a proven intense chronic ball tamperor.

The testimonies w.r.t that are numerous.

Maninder singh,Sandhu,Don Oslear,John Reid,Ian Botham,Robin Smith,Allan Lamb, Sarfraz Nawaz,Aamer Sohail,Shahbaz Shereef,Ramiz Raja,Shoaib Akhtar all have given testimonies w.r.t Imran's ball tampering .And players like Mohinder Amarnath,Shastri etc etc too had  expressed serious doubts .

Now I find 2 more additions to the list

umpire Holder & ex PAK player Sadiq Mohammed.

 

https://www.siasat.pk/forum/showthread.php?336769-Imran-Khan-Interview-With-Darcus-Howe-On-Ball-Tampering-Like-Always-Defending-Pakistan

 

 

watch Sadiq accusing  Imran in this video and show your frustration even more. I am yet to come across a player about whom some

14 players have given testimonies w.r.t tampering as has happend with your legendary Kaptaan.That shows who actually is the hypocrite here.

[rtmohanlal]

On 4/10/2018 at 9:15 PM, Nikhil_cric said:

Great points. I didn't mean to accuse anyone in particular of tampering and im sure if the indian team did tamper then it would have been only against Pakistan since they knew Immy and co. would be doing and getting away with it. The point I was trying to make was that teams did occasionally tamper the ball throughout history but nobody has tampered the ball so blatantly as the Pakistanis have done over the years and that would explain the late booming inswinger s bowled by the likes of Imran. It was only after Pakistanis made it the norm, that teams began to tamper in every other match and even then most teams never got the kind of swing that the Pakistanis did. 

yes... of course...  these Pakistanis were the undisputed no:1 in tampering with Imran the pioneer in those 'pre multi camera and neutral umpires' days.As umpire Holder points out, Indian team  too would have done that  having been forced  to do that in that 89 series to counter these bunch of  repeated  offenders with the 83 series in mind.

[hhhhdmt]

 

 

Not many reverse swinging wickets there, just two of the greatest bowlers to have ever played the game. 

 

 

[putrevus]

2 hours ago, hhhhdmt said:

 

 

Not many reverse swinging wickets there, just two of the greatest bowlers to have ever played the game. 

 

 

Answer one question if those two were so great how come they never won a series in Australia or SA.All the winning Pakistan did was in Imran and two Ws era was against weaker teams and at home.

 

India has at least excuse that it did not have fast bowlers to win series there.India has proved when their spinners are in game they are the best team in world for last 30 years.