Can Muslims be ever "reformed"? Could they ever come out of the religious brainwashing?

[Alam_dar]

In my next posts, I will cite few simple examples.

 

They will demonstrate the power of the Knowledge, and how "easily" they could get the success. 

 

=====

 

First Example: Miracle of Big Bang in Quran

 

Earlier I pointed out that:

* We have 2 "ultimate" weapons, which will finally break the backbone of Islam. One of them is the modern Science. 

* I also pointed out that the weapon of the Mullahs (like Zakir Naik) against science is "Deceptions". 

* I also pointed out that "initially" Muslim Mullahs got huge success in converting people in thousands into Islam, by telling them the Scientific miracles in Quran. But "later" the table started turning, the deceptions are vanishing, the truth is coming out, people have started abandoning Islam,  and now the Muslim Mullah is on the run. 

 

Let me demonstrate all these facts shortly by the example of Miracle of Big Bang in Quran (as Muslims claimed it and caused thousands to convert to Islam in it's name). 

 

(Quran 21:30) Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were of one piece, then We parted them, and we made every living thing of water?

Muslims claim this "parting" means Quran is telling about the Big Bang:.

Then we have another Quranic Verse, which is telling that Earth was created first, and then the 7 heavens were created. 

(Quran 41:9-12) Say (O Muhammad, unto the idolaters): Disbelieve ye verily in Him Who created the earth in two Days ?... Then turned He to the heaven when it was smoke... And He made them seven heavens in two days and to each heaven He ordained its laws, and then He adorned the lowest heaven with lamps of stars (i.e. Stars were created after the 7 heavens)

 

This Quranic claim is simply not possible while earth came into being about 9 billion years after the heavens. 

• Big Bang happened 13.8 billion years ago (Reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang)
• While planet earth came into being only 4.5 Billion years ago.(Reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formation_and_evolution_of_the_Solar_System)

So, there is a huge gap of about 9 Billion years between the creation of the heavens and the Earth. Therefore Allah could have never set the heavens and earth apart while they were never together. 

 

Thus Quran is proved totally false in light of the modren science. 

This was only the ancient stories in many cultures that heavens and earth was together initially and then the gods separated them. Quran only repeated those old stories. 

 

======

 

After this small scientific proof, the discussion now ends with the Muslims.

They retreat.

They have no way to escape from this stroke of the modern science. 

Many earlier converts to Islam, when see this scientific contradiction, they leave Islam. 

 

======

 

Very Very Important thing to Understand: Islam/Allah works on the bases of 100% correctness

 

Some Muslims still try to mollify themselves by telling that what when there is one scientific contradiction in Quran, and for that there are many other scientific miracles present in Quran. 

 

Upon this, I have to tell them that:

 

(1) There is not a single scientific miracle present in Quran (and we discuss all of them later). 

 

(2) And very important thing is this that Islam/Allah works on the bases of 100% correctness. 

If it is proved that Allah is correct in 99.99% cases, but still wrong in a single case, then still such entity could never be Allah and whole building of Islam/Allah demolishes with single scientific contradiction. 

 

And there are indeed many Muslims who understand this issue of 100% correctness of Allah, and thus they become  more doubtful about Allah's existence. 

Edited June 3, 2018 by Alam_dar

[DHONI_FANN]

Short answer is no. Muslims never think about the wellfare of their country. Their sole agenda is to breed and convert. Once in majority, they start showing their true colors. No one can play victim card better than them. 

[Alam_dar]

1 hour ago, MultiB48 said:

I think it is more about identity than ideology.Many muslims i see are not that religious ,they dont fast or even pray ,let alone quote scriptures .I have seen maulivs,muezzins coming over to convince them to go to mosques regularly ,but they are still quite tied to their identity and have in group preferences.

Very true. Both identity and the ideology are creating the problems. Nevertheless, I have this feeling that in case of Muslims, the ideology is playing a bigger role than the identity. 

 

Majority of the Muslims don't pray. But heavy majority of the Muslims (even the moderates) seem to be firmly believe in the existence of Allah, who has all the powers. This belief is a "foundation" which has the power to turn a moderate Muslim any time to an extremist. I have seen lot of conversions from moderate to extreme Islam due to this. 

[Mariyam]

3 hours ago, MultiB48 said:

The question is not about democracy but what type of democracy you want ,someone like you will prefer a liberal democracy .Muslims in india dont want a liberal democracy ,they are uncomfortable voting even for congress or other regional parties ,but they have to, to keep out the hindutva elements .

Any source to back this up?

 

What is a liberal democracy anyways? Is it mentioned in our constitution? How is a run of the mill democracy different from a liberal democracy?

[asterix]

Any source to back this up?   What is a liberal democracy anyways? Is it mentioned in our constitution? How is a run of the mill democracy different from a liberal democracy?

 

 

Liberal democracy is like USA where a celebrity restaurant owner can ban entry of President Trump in his restaurant chain...  

Or award waosi in India or boycotting events attended by Modi...

 

Normal democracy is like Turkey...

 

 

[Alam_dar]

4 hours ago, Mariyam said:

Any source to back this up?

 

What is a liberal democracy anyways? Is it mentioned in our constitution? How is a run of the mill democracy different from a liberal democracy?

Let me talk about my observations. 

 

There is one thing which is known as "supporting the Secularism", and there is another thing which is known as "misusing and abusing the Secularism". 

 

I am afraid that Indian Muslims (at least the Ulama and the Muslim leaders and the religious ones)  are only intended to "use the Secularism". 

 

For example, supporting the Secularism means forgetting all about religion and race and keeping the humanity above all. This is the very basics of Secularism which does not differentiate between the human beings.  

 

While the Muslims (the Mullahs and the religious ones) keep the religion over the humanity and they do differentiate the human beings on the bases of religion. This is known as the "misusing of Secularism". 

 

For example, a Hindu boy has been killed while he wanted to marry a Muslim Girl. This act of killing has widespread blessing of the Muslim community. 

 

Mullahs and religious Indian Muslims don't encourage the Love, but they encourage the "conversion in name of love". They tell the Muslim youth to convert the Hindu girl and then marry her. But if any Muslim boy wants to marry a Hindu girl without conversion, then such act is not allowed, severely criticized and discouraged  by the Majority of the Muslim community. 

Muslims of India (even the Mullahs one) take the name of Secularism enthusiastically when they want to stop the building of Ram Mandir. They take the name of Secularism when they want Quota for themselves in the Jobs. They take the name of Secular India when they want to have the personal Muslim laws for them ... but  unfortunately, this secularism vanishes when it comes to them giving equal rights to the non-Muslims and showing true spirits of secularism. 

 

Edited June 3, 2018 by Alam_dar

[Alam_dar]

Example 2: The Prophetic order of "humiliating" the Dhimmis

 

Earlier I pointed out that: 

 

* One of the ultimate weapon against the religion is "Humanity" within us. This humanity will guide us correctly and let us to differentiate between the right and the wrong. 

 

* Moreover, there is dark side of Islam which has been hidden from the Public by the Mullahs. Even 99% Muslims don't know it's existence. If only the Muslims come to know about this darker side, then they would abandon Islam. 

 

Let me demonstrate the above mentioned points, by the following example: 

 

//Sahih Muslim (Online Link):

عَنْ أَبِي هُرَيْرَةَ، أَنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم قَالَ ‏ "‏ لاَ تَبْدَءُوا الْيَهُودَ وَلاَ النَّصَارَى بِالسَّلاَمِ فَإِذَا لَقِيتُمْ أَحَدَهُمْ فِي طَرِيقٍ فَاضْطَرُّوهُ إِلَى أَضْيَقِهِ ‏"‏

Translation: 

Allah's Messenger said: Do not greet the Jews and the Christians before they greet you and when you meet any one of them on the roads force him to go to the narrowest part of it (in order to humiliate them).//

 

This is an authentic tradition, and all Muslims believe in it. 

 

Let us see this same tradition from Sunnan al-Tirmidhi (online link):

 

//

عَنْ أَبِي هُرَيْرَةَ، أَنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم قَالَ ‏"‏ لاَ تَبْدَءُوا الْيَهُودَ وَالنَّصَارَى بِالسَّلاَمِ وَإِذَا لَقِيتُمْ أَحَدَهُمْ فِي الطَّرِيقِ فَاضْطَرُّوهُمْ إِلَى أَضْيَقِهِ ‏"‏ ‏.‏ قَالَ وَفِي الْبَابِ عَنِ ابْنِ عُمَرَ وَأَنَسٍ وَأَبِي بَصْرَةَ الْغِفَارِيِّ صَاحِبِ النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏.‏ قَالَ أَبُو عِيسَى هَذَا حَدِيثٌ حَسَنٌ صَحِيحٌ ‏.‏ وَمَعْنَى هَذَا الْحَدِيثِ ‏"‏ لاَ تَبْدَءُوا الْيَهُودَ وَالنَّصَارَى ‏"‏ ‏.‏ قَالَ بَعْضُ أَهْلِ الْعِلْمِ إِنَّمَا مَعْنَى الْكَرَاهِيَةِ لأَنَّهُ يَكُونُ تَعْظِيمًا لَهُ وَإِنَّمَا أُمِرَ الْمُسْلِمُونَ بِتَذْلِيلِهِمْ وَكَذَلِكَ إِذَا لَقِيَ أَحَدَهُمْ فِي الطَّرِيقِ فَلاَ يَتْرُكُ الطَّرِيقَ عَلَيْهِ لأَنَّ فِيهِ تَعْظِيمًا لَهُمْ ‏.

That the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: "Do not precede the Jews and the Christians with the Salam. And if one you meets one of them in the path, then force him to its narrow portion."

[Abu 'Eisa (i.e. Imam Tirmidhi) said:] This Hadith is Hasan Sahih. And regarding the meaning of this Hadith: "Do not precede the Jews and the Christians": Some of the people of knowledge said that it only means that it is disliked because it would be honoring them, while the Muslims were ordered to humiliate them (in Quran Verse 9:29). For this reason, when one of them is met on the path, then the path is not yielded for him, because doing so would amount to honoring them.//

 

Now let us read the Qruanic Verse (9:29) which has been mentioned above. 

 

(Quran 9:28-29) يأَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ إِنَّمَا الْمُشْرِكُونَ نَجَسٌ فَلاَ يَقْرَبُواْ الْمَسْجِدَ الْحَرَامَ بَعْدَ عَامِهِمْ هَـذَا وَإِنْ خِفْتُمْ عَيْلَةً فَسَوْفَ يُغْنِيكُمُ اللَّهُ مِن فَضْلِهِ إِن شَآءَ إِنَّ اللَّهَ عَلِيمٌ حَكِيمٌ - قَـتِلُواْ الَّذِينَ لاَ يُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَلاَ بِالْيَوْمِ الاٌّخِرِ وَلاَ يُحَرِّمُونَ مَا حَرَّمَ اللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ وَلاَ يَدِينُونَ دِينَ الْحَقِّ مِنَ الَّذِينَ أُوتُواْ الْكِتَـبَ حَتَّى يُعْطُواْ الْجِزْيَةَ عَن يَدٍ وَهُمْ صَـغِرُونَ 

Translation (online link):

O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean (/impure/filthy); so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque ... Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth,  of the People of the Book (i.e. Christians and Jews and Zoroastrians), until they pay the Jizya (tax) with willing submission, and feel themselves humiliated (Arabic: صَـغِرُونَ).

 

Please note:

(1) Pagans were declared unclean/filthy, which is in itself xenophobic. 

(2) صَـغِرُونَ is an Arabic word, which means humiliation/subdued (link). This same word has also been used in Quran in verse (7:119) and verse (7:113) with same meanings of "Humiliation". 

All Muslim Ulama like Imam Tirmidhi, Ibn Kathir etc said that here صَـغِرُونَ has been used in the meanings of تذلیل  (i.e. humiliation). 

 

===

 

Now let us note some important points from this example:

 

(1) More than 99% Muslims themselves don't know these order of Prophet, that they have to humiliate the Dhimmies by compelling to greet you first, and by compelling them to go from the narrowest part of road. 

 

(2) Mullahs could not explain this plain xenophobic attitude of Prophet/Quran in this modern world. Therefore, they simply hide these Sharia orders from the normal Muslim public today. Unfortunately, they are very successful in hiding it. 

 

(3) Despite a lot of religious brainwashing, but still enough Humanity is present in the today's Muslims that they will reject this Sharia order and themselves start doubting their religion. 

 

Problem is no one is present there to tell it to the Muslims (and No good books available). Only if the world becomes aware of this dark side of Islam, then Islam will itself be challenged by millions of Muslims, who already doubt Islam for killing in case of leaving Islam. 

[panther]

1 hour ago, Alam_dar said:

Example 2: The Prophetic order of "humiliating" the Dhimmis

 

Earlier I pointed out that: 

 

* One of the ultimate weapon against the religion is "Humanity" within us. This humanity will guide us correctly and let us to differentiate between the right and the wrong. 

 

* Moreover, there is dark side of Islam which has been hidden from the Public by the Mullahs. Even 99% Muslims don't know it's existence. If only the Muslims come to know about this darker side, then they would abandon Islam. 

 

Let me demonstrate the above mentioned points, by the following example: 

 

//Sahih Muslim (Online Link):

عَنْ أَبِي هُرَيْرَةَ، أَنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم قَالَ ‏ "‏ لاَ تَبْدَءُوا الْيَهُودَ وَلاَ النَّصَارَى بِالسَّلاَمِ فَإِذَا لَقِيتُمْ أَحَدَهُمْ فِي طَرِيقٍ فَاضْطَرُّوهُ إِلَى أَضْيَقِهِ ‏"‏

Translation: 

Allah's Messenger said: Do not greet the Jews and the Christians before they greet you and when you meet any one of them on the roads force him to go to the narrowest part of it (in order to humiliate them).//

 

This is an authentic tradition, and all Muslims believe in it. 

 

Let us see this same tradition from Sunnan al-Tirmidhi (online link):

 

//

عَنْ أَبِي هُرَيْرَةَ، أَنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم قَالَ ‏"‏ لاَ تَبْدَءُوا الْيَهُودَ وَالنَّصَارَى بِالسَّلاَمِ وَإِذَا لَقِيتُمْ أَحَدَهُمْ فِي الطَّرِيقِ فَاضْطَرُّوهُمْ إِلَى أَضْيَقِهِ ‏"‏ ‏.‏ قَالَ وَفِي الْبَابِ عَنِ ابْنِ عُمَرَ وَأَنَسٍ وَأَبِي بَصْرَةَ الْغِفَارِيِّ صَاحِبِ النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏.‏ قَالَ أَبُو عِيسَى هَذَا حَدِيثٌ حَسَنٌ صَحِيحٌ ‏.‏ وَمَعْنَى هَذَا الْحَدِيثِ ‏"‏ لاَ تَبْدَءُوا الْيَهُودَ وَالنَّصَارَى ‏"‏ ‏.‏ قَالَ بَعْضُ أَهْلِ الْعِلْمِ إِنَّمَا مَعْنَى الْكَرَاهِيَةِ لأَنَّهُ يَكُونُ تَعْظِيمًا لَهُ وَإِنَّمَا أُمِرَ الْمُسْلِمُونَ بِتَذْلِيلِهِمْ وَكَذَلِكَ إِذَا لَقِيَ أَحَدَهُمْ فِي الطَّرِيقِ فَلاَ يَتْرُكُ الطَّرِيقَ عَلَيْهِ لأَنَّ فِيهِ تَعْظِيمًا لَهُمْ ‏.

That the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: "Do not precede the Jews and the Christians with the Salam. And if one you meets one of them in the path, then force him to its narrow portion."

[Abu 'Eisa (i.e. Imam Tirmidhi) said:] This Hadith is Hasan Sahih. And regarding the meaning of this Hadith: "Do not precede the Jews and the Christians": Some of the people of knowledge said that it only means that it is disliked because it would be honoring them, while the Muslims were ordered to humiliate them (in Quran Verse 9:29). For this reason, when one of them is met on the path, then the path is not yielded for him, because doing so would amount to honoring them.//

 

Now let us read the Qruanic Verse (9:29) which has been mentioned above. 

 

(Quran 9:28-29) يأَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ إِنَّمَا الْمُشْرِكُونَ نَجَسٌ فَلاَ يَقْرَبُواْ الْمَسْجِدَ الْحَرَامَ بَعْدَ عَامِهِمْ هَـذَا وَإِنْ خِفْتُمْ عَيْلَةً فَسَوْفَ يُغْنِيكُمُ اللَّهُ مِن فَضْلِهِ إِن شَآءَ إِنَّ اللَّهَ عَلِيمٌ حَكِيمٌ - قَـتِلُواْ الَّذِينَ لاَ يُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَلاَ بِالْيَوْمِ الاٌّخِرِ وَلاَ يُحَرِّمُونَ مَا حَرَّمَ اللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ وَلاَ يَدِينُونَ دِينَ الْحَقِّ مِنَ الَّذِينَ أُوتُواْ الْكِتَـبَ حَتَّى يُعْطُواْ الْجِزْيَةَ عَن يَدٍ وَهُمْ صَـغِرُونَ 

Translation (online link):

O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean (/impure/filthy); so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque ... Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth,  of the People of the Book (i.e. Christians and Jews and Zoroastrians), until they pay the Jizya (tax) with willing submission, and feel themselves humiliated (Arabic: صَـغِرُونَ).

 

Please note:

(1) Pagans were declared unclean/filthy, which is in itself xenophobic. 

(2) صَـغِرُونَ is an Arabic word, which means humiliation/subdued (link). This same word has also been used in Quran in verse (7:119) and verse (7:113) with same meanings of "Humiliation". 

All Muslim Ulama like Imam Tirmidhi, Ibn Kathir etc said that here صَـغِرُونَ has been used in the meanings of تذلیل  (i.e. humiliation). 

 

===

 

Now let us note some important points from this example:

 

(1) More than 99% Muslims themselves don't know these order of Prophet, that they have to humiliate the Dhimmies by compelling to greet you first, and by compelling them to go from the narrowest part of road. 

 

(2) Mullahs could not explain this plain xenophobic attitude of Prophet/Quran in this modern world. Therefore, they simply hide these Sharia orders from the normal Muslim public today. Unfortunately, they are very successful in hiding it. 

 

(3) Despite a lot of religious brainwashing, but still enough Humanity is present in the today's Muslims that they will reject this Sharia order and themselves start doubting their religion. 

 

Problem is no one is present there to tell it to the Muslims (and No good books available). Only if the world becomes aware of this dark side of Islam, then Islam will itself be challenged by millions of Muslims, who already doubt Islam for killing in case of leaving Islam. 

Lol that hadith is not hidden I remember reading it as a teenager.

 

Regarding pagans every muslims knows that the worst people in the sight of God are Pagans and Idoleters.

 

The unforgivable sin as they say.

Edited June 3, 2018 by panther

[panther]

2 minutes ago, MultiB48 said:

@Alam_dar why do they further classify them as sahih,hasan or daif .when the hadiths themselves are classified as sahih muslim or sahih bukhari.

Because sahih muslim and bukhari are only 2 books out of numerous hadith books, but these 2 are the most authentic.

[Alam_dar]

3 minutes ago, MultiB48 said:

@Alam_dar why do they further classify them as sahih,hasan or daif .when the hadiths themselves are classified as sahih muslim or sahih bukhari.

Correct, all hadiths are considered Sahih in the book of Bukhari and Muslim by the Muslim Hadith Masters. 

But Imam Tirmidhi got his own grading system. In his system "Hasan Sahih" is same as "Sahih" of other Hadith Masters. 

[Alam_dar]

40 minutes ago, panther said:

Lol that hadith is not hidden I remember reading it as a teenager.

You are lucky one then. But still it does not change the reality that:

(1) 99% of Muslims don't know existence of such Sharia orders. 

(2) And almost 0% of Muslims are practising upon this Prophetic Orders today in the Islamic Countries. The humanity in them have compelled them to reject these Prophetic orders. 

 

Quote

Regarding pagans every muslims knows that the worst people in the sight of God are Pagans and Idoleters.

Please note the problems in this argument:

 

(1) Hindus are pagans. Do you really believe in religious instruction that all Hindus are unclean/filthy creatures?

 

(2) And you are mistaken. The Prophetic Tradition is not about the Pagans, but it is about the Christians & Jews, who are already Dhimmi and paying the Jizya. These Jews/Christians could not be greeted. And they must be constantly humiliated and belittled in an Islamic State. 

 

Ibn Kathir wrote in commentary of this verse 9:29 (link):

“(and feel themselves subdued.), disgraced, humiliated and belittled. Therefore, Muslims are not allowed to honor the people of Dhimmah or elevate them above Muslims, for they are miserable, disgraced and humiliated. Muslim recorded from Abu Hurayrah that the Prophet said, لَا تَبْدَءُوا الْيَهُودَ وَالنَّصَارَى بِالسَّلَامِ، وَإِذَا لَقِيتُمْ أَحَدَهُمْ فِي طَرِيقٍ فَاضْطَرُّوهُ إِلَى أَضْيَقِه (Do not initiate the Salam to the Jews and Christians, and if you meet any of them in a road, force them to its narrowest alley).”

 

How many Muslims know this status of the Christians/Jews in an Islamic State? Do you really believe that Humanity has become dead in all the Muslims and they have become the perfect blind followers? No, you are simply mistaken then. Humanity is alive and millions of Muslims will simply refuse to act upon this Quranic Orders and refuse to humiliate the minorities in this way. 

Edited June 3, 2018 by Alam_dar

[panther]

22 minutes ago, Alam_dar said:

You are lucky one then. But still it does not change the reality that:

(1) 99% of Muslims don't know existence of such Sharia orders. 

(2) And almost 0% of Muslims are practising upon this Prophetic Orders today in the Islamic Countries. The humanity in them have compelled them to reject these Prophetic orders. 

 

Please note the problems in this argument:

 

(1) Hindus are pagans. Do you really believe in religious instruction that all Hindus are unclean/filthy creatures?

 

(2) And you are mistaken. The Prophetic Tradition is not about the Pagans, but it is about the Christians & Jews, who are already Dhimmi and paying the Jizya. These Jews/Christians could not be greeted. And they must be constantly humiliated and belittled in an Islamic State. 

 

Ibn Kathir wrote in commentary of this verse 9:29 (link):

“(and feel themselves subdued.), disgraced, humiliated and belittled. Therefore, Muslims are not allowed to honor the people of Dhimmah or elevate them above Muslims, for they are miserable, disgraced and humiliated. Muslim recorded from Abu Hurayrah that the Prophet said, لَا تَبْدَءُوا الْيَهُودَ وَالنَّصَارَى بِالسَّلَامِ، وَإِذَا لَقِيتُمْ أَحَدَهُمْ فِي طَرِيقٍ فَاضْطَرُّوهُ إِلَى أَضْيَقِه (Do not initiate the Salam to the Jews and Christians, and if you meet any of them in a road, force them to its narrowest alley).”

 

How many Muslims know this status of the Christians/Jews in an Islamic State? Do you really believe that Humanity has become dead in all the Muslims and they have become the perfect blind followers? No, you are simply mistaken then. Humanity is alive and millions of Muslims will simply refuse to act upon this Quranic Orders and refuse to humiliate the minorities in this way. 

Pagans are not allowed in the sacred cities of Mecca and medinah because of the filth of their polytheism is an insult to the sacred cities of monotheism.

 

Apart from these two cities they are tolerated as long as they pay the jizyah.

 

Non muslims can not be elevated above muslims as ibn Kathir mentions, you treat them as they treat you but a muslim has more right to a muslim than a non muslim.

[Alam_dar]

59 minutes ago, panther said:

Pagans are not allowed in the sacred cities of Mecca and medinah because of the filth of their polytheism is an insult to the sacred cities of monotheism. Apart from these two cities they are tolerated as long as they pay the jizyah.

The "final" orders about Pagans were revealed in 9:5, according to which all pagans should have been killed wherever they would have been found, except this that they convert to Islam. 

Jizya was only for the People of Scriptures (i.e. Christians/Jews/ Zoroastrians). 

Prophet and Sahaba didn't accept any Jizya from the Pagans, but they killed them or forced them to become a Muslim. 

 

I will write about it later. 

 

Quote

Non muslims can not be elevated above muslims as ibn Kathir mentions,

No, it is a deception. 

Ibn Kathir, Quran, Hadith all are ordering the "HUMILIATION" of the Dhimmies, and not only the elevation. You are hiding the full truth. 

Quote

you treat them as they treat you

Again a deception. 

Muslims have to necessarily humiliate them and not to treat them equally. This is absolutely nothing in treating them as they treat you. 

 

How Umar Ibn Khattab (the 2nd Caliph) carried the Sharia orders of constant Humiliation of the Dhimmies?

 

Ibn Kathir writes under the commentary of this verse (9:29) about the "Pact Of Umar" that he imposed upon the Christian Dhimmies (link):

 

“(and feel themselves subdued.), disgraced, humiliated and belittled. Therefore, Muslims are not allowed to honor the people of Dhimmah or elevate them above Muslims, for they are miserable, disgraced and humiliated. Muslim recorded from Abu Hurayrah that the Prophet said, لَا تَبْدَءُوا الْيَهُودَ وَالنَّصَارَى بِالسَّلَامِ، وَإِذَا لَقِيتُمْ أَحَدَهُمْ فِي طَرِيقٍ فَاضْطَرُّوهُ إِلَى أَضْيَقِه (Do not initiate the Salam to the Jews and Christians, and if you meet any of them in a road, force them to its narrowest alley).”
 This is why the Leader of the faithful `Umar bin Al-Khattab, may Allah be pleased with him, demanded his well-known conditions (of humiliation) be met by the Christians, these conditions that ensured their continued humiliation, degradation and disgrace. The scholars of Hadith narrated from `Abdur-Rahman bin Ghanm Al-Ash`ari that he said, "I recorded for `Umar bin Al-Khattab, may Allah be pleased with him, the terms of the treaty of peace he conducted with the Christians of Ash-Sham:
`In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful. This is a document to the servant of Allah `Umar, the Leader of the faithful, from the Christians of such and such city. When you (Muslims) came to us we requested safety for ourselves, children, property and followers of our religion.

(1) We made a condition on ourselves that we will neither erect in our areas a monastery, church, or a sanctuary for a monk, nor restore any place of worship that needs restoration nor use any of them for the purpose of enmity against Muslims.

(2) We will not prevent any Muslim from resting in our churches whether they come by day or night, and we will open the doors ﴿of our houses of worship﴾ for the wayfarer and passerby.

(3) Those Muslims who come as guests, will enjoy boarding and food for three days.

(4) We will not teach our children the Qur'an, publicize practices of Shirk, invite anyone to Shirk or prevent any of our fellows from embracing Islam, if they choose to do so.

(5) We will respect Muslims, move from the places we sit in if they choose to sit in them.

(6) We will not imitate their clothing, caps, turbans, sandals, hairstyles, speech, nicknames and title names, or ride on saddles, hang swords on the shoulders, collect weapons of any kind or carry these weapons.

(7) We will not encrypt our stamps in Arabic, or sell liquor.

(8) We will have the front of our hair cut,

(9) We wear only our customary clothes, and wear belts around our waist (so that we could be differentiated from the Muslims and could be humiliated),

(10) We refrain from erecting crosses on the outside of our churches and demonstrating them and our books in public in Muslim fairways and markets.

(11) We will not sound the bells in our churches, except discretely, or raise our voices while reciting our holy books inside our churches in the presence of Muslims,

(12) Nor we raise our voices ﴿with prayer﴾ at our funerals, or light torches in funeral processions in the fairways of Muslims, or their markets.

(13) We will not bury our dead next to Muslim dead, or buy servants who were captured by Muslims.

(`Abdur-Rahman further said) When  I gave this document to `Umar, he added to it, `We will not beat any Muslim. These are the conditions that we set against ourselves and followers of our religion in return for safety and protection. If we break any of these promises that we set for your benefit against ourselves, then our Dhimmah (promise of protection) is broken and you are allowed to do with us what you are allowed of people of defiance and rebellion.'''

 

Today we see none of such humiliation by the Muslims even in the Muslim States. 

Reason is simple, Humanity has gone much further then the dark ages of Muhammad and Umar Ibn Khattab. 

 

The Mullah knows it very well too. Therefore Mullah today not preaching the Muslim youth to press the minorities in the corner and to do their constant humiliation as Umar Ibn Khattab did. Instead of this, Mullah is today hiding it from the Muslim public. 

Edited June 3, 2018 by Alam_dar

[panther]

19 minutes ago, Alam_dar said:

The "final" orders about Pagans were revealed in 9:5, according to which all pagans should have been killed wherever they would have been found, except this that they convert to Islam. 

Jizya was only for the People of Scriptures (i.e. Christians/Jews/ Zoroastrians). 

Prophet and Sahaba didn't accept any Jizya from the Pagans, but they killed them or forced them to become a Muslim. 

 

I will write about it later. 

 

No, it is a deception. 

Ibn Kathir, Quran, Hadith all are ordering the "HUMILIATION" of the Dhimmies, and not only the elevation. You are hiding the full truth. 

Again a deception. 

Muslims have to necessarily humiliate them and not to treat them equally. This is absolutely nothing in treating them as they treat you. 

 

How Umar Ibn Khattab (the 2nd Caliph) carried the Sharia orders of constant Humiliation of the Dhimmies?

 

Ibn Kathir writes under the commentary of this verse (9:29) about the "Pact Of Umar" that he imposed upon the Christian Dhimmies (link):

 

“(and feel themselves subdued.), disgraced, humiliated and belittled. Therefore, Muslims are not allowed to honor the people of Dhimmah or elevate them above Muslims, for they are miserable, disgraced and humiliated. Muslim recorded from Abu Hurayrah that the Prophet said, لَا تَبْدَءُوا الْيَهُودَ وَالنَّصَارَى بِالسَّلَامِ، وَإِذَا لَقِيتُمْ أَحَدَهُمْ فِي طَرِيقٍ فَاضْطَرُّوهُ إِلَى أَضْيَقِه (Do not initiate the Salam to the Jews and Christians, and if you meet any of them in a road, force them to its narrowest alley).”
 This is why the Leader of the faithful `Umar bin Al-Khattab, may Allah be pleased with him, demanded his well-known conditions (of humiliation) be met by the Christians, these conditions that ensured their continued humiliation, degradation and disgrace. The scholars of Hadith narrated from `Abdur-Rahman bin Ghanm Al-Ash`ari that he said, "I recorded for `Umar bin Al-Khattab, may Allah be pleased with him, the terms of the treaty of peace he conducted with the Christians of Ash-Sham:
`In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful. This is a document to the servant of Allah `Umar, the Leader of the faithful, from the Christians of such and such city. When you (Muslims) came to us we requested safety for ourselves, children, property and followers of our religion.

(1) We made a condition on ourselves that we will neither erect in our areas a monastery, church, or a sanctuary for a monk, nor restore any place of worship that needs restoration nor use any of them for the purpose of enmity against Muslims.

(2) We will not prevent any Muslim from resting in our churches whether they come by day or night, and we will open the doors ﴿of our houses of worship﴾ for the wayfarer and passerby.

(3) Those Muslims who come as guests, will enjoy boarding and food for three days.

(4) We will not teach our children the Qur'an, publicize practices of Shirk, invite anyone to Shirk or prevent any of our fellows from embracing Islam, if they choose to do so.

(5) We will respect Muslims, move from the places we sit in if they choose to sit in them.

(6) We will not imitate their clothing, caps, turbans, sandals, hairstyles, speech, nicknames and title names, or ride on saddles, hang swords on the shoulders, collect weapons of any kind or carry these weapons.

(7) We will not encrypt our stamps in Arabic, or sell liquor.

(8) We will have the front of our hair cut,

(9) We wear only our customary clothes, and wear belts around our waist (so that we could be differentiated from the Muslims and could be humiliated),

(10) We refrain from erecting crosses on the outside of our churches and demonstrating them and our books in public in Muslim fairways and markets.

(11) We will not sound the bells in our churches, except discretely, or raise our voices while reciting our holy books inside our churches in the presence of Muslims,

(12) Nor we raise our voices ﴿with prayer﴾ at our funerals, or light torches in funeral processions in the fairways of Muslims, or their markets.

(13) We will not bury our dead next to Muslim dead, or buy servants who were captured by Muslims.

(`Abdur-Rahman further said) When  I gave this document to `Umar, he added to it, `We will not beat any Muslim. These are the conditions that we set against ourselves and followers of our religion in return for safety and protection. If we break any of these promises that we set for your benefit against ourselves, then our Dhimmah (promise of protection) is broken and you are allowed to do with us what you are allowed of people of defiance and rebellion.'''

 

Today we see none of such humiliation by the Muslims even in the Muslim States. 

Reason is simple, Humanity has gone much further then the dark ages of Muhammad and Umar Ibn Khattab. 

 

The Mullah knows it very well too. Therefore Mullah today not preaching the Muslim youth to press the minorities in the corner and to do their constant humiliation as Umar Ibn Khattab did. Instead of this, Mullah is today hiding it from the Muslim public. 

Paying jizyah is humilation in itself, what can be more humilating than being defeated on the battlefield and than given 3 options, convert, pay jizyah or leave.

 

As for jizyah from pagans I'm pretty sure muslim took jizya from pagans historically.

[dial_100]

4 hours ago, panther said:

Lol that hadith is not hidden I remember reading it as a teenager.

 

Regarding pagans every muslims knows that the worst people in the sight of God are Pagans and Idoleters.

 

The unforgivable sin as they say.

How do you know what is good and bad in the eyes of God? What is your achievement? You read a book and spread all the non-sense. These are all made up stuff. You guys havent understood your own stuff yet and audaciously go on judging others. And you guys do it shamelessly. Idol worship is not entirely forbidden and who has given you guys a right to decide who is pagan.

 

Kuchh bhi. You guys are not brainwashed. You guys are conditioned and raised with blinkers on thats why you are like this. 

 

Edited June 3, 2018 by dial_100

[panther]

2 hours ago, Alam_dar said:

The "final" orders about Pagans were revealed in 9:5, according to which all pagans should have been killed wherever they would have been found, except this that they convert to Islam. 

Jizya was only for the People of Scriptures (i.e. Christians/Jews/ Zoroastrians). 

Prophet and Sahaba didn't accept any Jizya from the Pagans, but they killed them or forced them to become a Muslim. 

 

I will write about it later. 

 

No, it is a deception. 

Ibn Kathir, Quran, Hadith all are ordering the "HUMILIATION" of the Dhimmies, and not only the elevation. You are hiding the full truth. 

Again a deception. 

Muslims have to necessarily humiliate them and not to treat them equally. This is absolutely nothing in treating them as they treat you. 

 

How Umar Ibn Khattab (the 2nd Caliph) carried the Sharia orders of constant Humiliation of the Dhimmies?

 

Ibn Kathir writes under the commentary of this verse (9:29) about the "Pact Of Umar" that he imposed upon the Christian Dhimmies (link):

 

“(and feel themselves subdued.), disgraced, humiliated and belittled. Therefore, Muslims are not allowed to honor the people of Dhimmah or elevate them above Muslims, for they are miserable, disgraced and humiliated. Muslim recorded from Abu Hurayrah that the Prophet said, لَا تَبْدَءُوا الْيَهُودَ وَالنَّصَارَى بِالسَّلَامِ، وَإِذَا لَقِيتُمْ أَحَدَهُمْ فِي طَرِيقٍ فَاضْطَرُّوهُ إِلَى أَضْيَقِه (Do not initiate the Salam to the Jews and Christians, and if you meet any of them in a road, force them to its narrowest alley).”
 This is why the Leader of the faithful `Umar bin Al-Khattab, may Allah be pleased with him, demanded his well-known conditions (of humiliation) be met by the Christians, these conditions that ensured their continued humiliation, degradation and disgrace. The scholars of Hadith narrated from `Abdur-Rahman bin Ghanm Al-Ash`ari that he said, "I recorded for `Umar bin Al-Khattab, may Allah be pleased with him, the terms of the treaty of peace he conducted with the Christians of Ash-Sham:
`In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful. This is a document to the servant of Allah `Umar, the Leader of the faithful, from the Christians of such and such city. When you (Muslims) came to us we requested safety for ourselves, children, property and followers of our religion.

(1) We made a condition on ourselves that we will neither erect in our areas a monastery, church, or a sanctuary for a monk, nor restore any place of worship that needs restoration nor use any of them for the purpose of enmity against Muslims.

(2) We will not prevent any Muslim from resting in our churches whether they come by day or night, and we will open the doors ﴿of our houses of worship﴾ for the wayfarer and passerby.

(3) Those Muslims who come as guests, will enjoy boarding and food for three days.

(4) We will not teach our children the Qur'an, publicize practices of Shirk, invite anyone to Shirk or prevent any of our fellows from embracing Islam, if they choose to do so.

(5) We will respect Muslims, move from the places we sit in if they choose to sit in them.

(6) We will not imitate their clothing, caps, turbans, sandals, hairstyles, speech, nicknames and title names, or ride on saddles, hang swords on the shoulders, collect weapons of any kind or carry these weapons.

(7) We will not encrypt our stamps in Arabic, or sell liquor.

(8) We will have the front of our hair cut,

(9) We wear only our customary clothes, and wear belts around our waist (so that we could be differentiated from the Muslims and could be humiliated),

(10) We refrain from erecting crosses on the outside of our churches and demonstrating them and our books in public in Muslim fairways and markets.

(11) We will not sound the bells in our churches, except discretely, or raise our voices while reciting our holy books inside our churches in the presence of Muslims,

(12) Nor we raise our voices ﴿with prayer﴾ at our funerals, or light torches in funeral processions in the fairways of Muslims, or their markets.

(13) We will not bury our dead next to Muslim dead, or buy servants who were captured by Muslims.

(`Abdur-Rahman further said) When  I gave this document to `Umar, he added to it, `We will not beat any Muslim. These are the conditions that we set against ourselves and followers of our religion in return for safety and protection. If we break any of these promises that we set for your benefit against ourselves, then our Dhimmah (promise of protection) is broken and you are allowed to do with us what you are allowed of people of defiance and rebellion.'''

 

Today we see none of such humiliation by the Muslims even in the Muslim States. 

Reason is simple, Humanity has gone much further then the dark ages of Muhammad and Umar Ibn Khattab. 

 

The Mullah knows it very well too. Therefore Mullah today not preaching the Muslim youth to press the minorities in the corner and to do their constant humiliation as Umar Ibn Khattab did. Instead of this, Mullah is today hiding it from the Muslim public. 

The Prophet (pbuh) says there are three kinds of neighbors: A neighbor who has one right (the one with the least rights), one who has two rights and one who has three rights over you. The neighbor with one right is the one who is a non-Muslim. The one with two rights is the one who is a Muslim. One right is for Islam and one right is for being neighbors. The one with three rights is one who is a neighbor, Muslim and a relative. One right is for Islam, one for being neighbors and one for being relatives.

[panther]

2 minutes ago, dial_100 said:

How do you know what is good and bad in the eyes of God? What is your achievement? You read a book and spread all the non-sense. These are all made up stuff. You guys havent understood your own stuff yet and audaciously go on judging others. And you guys do it shamelessly. Idol worship is not entirely forbidden and who has given you guys to decide who is pagans.

 

Kuchh bhi. You guys are not brainwashed. You guys are conditioned and raised with blinkers on thats why you are like this. 

 

Bhai this is What is in the Quran, polytheism is the only sin Allah will never forgive.

[dial_100]

4 hours ago, Alam_dar said:

You are lucky one then. But still it does not change the reality that:

(1) 99% of Muslims don't know existence of such Sharia orders. 

(2) And almost 0% of Muslims are practising upon this Prophetic Orders today in the Islamic Countries. The humanity in them have compelled them to reject these Prophetic orders. 

 

Please note the problems in this argument:

 

(1) Hindus are pagans. Do you really believe in religious instruction that all Hindus are unclean/filthy creatures?

 

(2) And you are mistaken. The Prophetic Tradition is not about the Pagans, but it is about the Christians & Jews, who are already Dhimmi and paying the Jizya. These Jews/Christians could not be greeted. And they must be constantly humiliated and belittled in an Islamic State. 

 

Ibn Kathir wrote in commentary of this verse 9:29 (link):

“(and feel themselves subdued.), disgraced, humiliated and belittled. Therefore, Muslims are not allowed to honor the people of Dhimmah or elevate them above Muslims, for they are miserable, disgraced and humiliated. Muslim recorded from Abu Hurayrah that the Prophet said, لَا تَبْدَءُوا الْيَهُودَ وَالنَّصَارَى بِالسَّلَامِ، وَإِذَا لَقِيتُمْ أَحَدَهُمْ فِي طَرِيقٍ فَاضْطَرُّوهُ إِلَى أَضْيَقِه (Do not initiate the Salam to the Jews and Christians, and if you meet any of them in a road, force them to its narrowest alley).”

 

How many Muslims know this status of the Christians/Jews in an Islamic State? Do you really believe that Humanity has become dead in all the Muslims and they have become the perfect blind followers? No, you are simply mistaken then. Humanity is alive and millions of Muslims will simply refuse to act upon this Quranic Orders and refuse to humiliate the minorities in this way. 

what lucky? He is shamelessly justifying it. I see that they are the most unluckiest ones that they dont even have simple aptitude to understand that such disgraceful commandments should be thrown out of window. These followers go on to call other worst people. He audaciously uses God's name to justify his disbelief. These are educated ones. Anpadh, gawar and Jahils are much beyond this point who are even ready to kill others.

 

This cannot be undone. These teachings will only die with them. 

[dial_100]

11 minutes ago, panther said:

Bhai this is What is in the Quran, polytheism is the only sin Allah will never forgive.

Bhai. how do you know if it is correct.? These are all distorted texts. I know exactly what is said there. It was only said to avoid unnecessary digression in our ascend. Besides, right people always know that there is only 1 God but there is lot more to it. Ascend is not from "nothing to everything", a full realization. There are stages to it. Those stages are what other religions refer to which are not the end goals. It is not necessarily polytheism, it is just a journey where ultimate goal is to reach it to that 1 destination which is common for all of us. We are not different in that journey. All are equally capable, all are at par.

All of our ebaadat, all that purity that we earn is lost when we criticize others. I think it is a biggest sin to call others pagans and whatever else you say. 

[Alam_dar]

7 hours ago, panther said:

Paying jizyah is humilation in itself, what can be more humilating than being defeated on the battlefield and than given 3 options, convert, pay jizyah or leave.

To @panther

 

(1) Have you ever thought when Jizya is in itself the biggest humiliation (as you say), then what is the need for this extra humiliation of xenophobic nature? 

 

(2) Then there are many civilians, old men, women and children who have nothing to do with the war.

And there are many who are being born to their Dhimmi parents. 

But they are also compelled to pay the Jizya, and still be humiliated in worst manner.

Does the Humanity within you tells you that this is exactly the correct Divine Justice?  

 

(3) Allah claims "There is NO compulsion in the Religion". 

Doesn't the humanity telling you that Allah is contradicting himself here, while this humiliation is itself a compulsion?

 

(4) Did you ever think about it,  that Muslim Countries are week, and if Non Muslims want then they could enslave all of them and humiliate them, their women, their children? Are you ready for this same kind of humiliation? 

 

(5) Don't you think if Hindus come to know this real face of Islam (the Darker side  which Mullahs and Muslims are trying their best to hide), then what would they do with the Muslim minority in India? 

 

=====

 

To @Rest of the Members here ... please note these points:

 

(1) Although Mr. panther still preferred religion of the voice of humanity, but believe me this is not the case with "all" the Muslims. There are millions of Muslims, who have more humanity alive in themselves and they would show strong reaction against this xenophobic behaviour of Islam. 

 

Moreover, if the new converts into Islam ever know about this xenophobic side of Islam, then for sure there will be hardly any conversion. This conversion process is only successful, while Mullahs have very successfully hidden this darker side of Islam from the new converts. 

 

(2)  Taliban ones tried to compel the Hindus in Afghanistan to wear only the Saffron dress so that they could be identified for humiliation. But there was extremely strong reaction against it in Pakistan. But people  in Pakistan thought that Taliban were doing it at their own. They didn't know that Taliban were only acting upon the Sharia orders. 

Mullahs of Pakistan were clever enough to understand the intensity of this reaction. So they also didn't tell the public that it is Islam which Taliban were acting upon. 

 

(3) Main Issue/Problem is this that 99% Muslims still don't know this xenophobic darker side of Islam. 

Even Mr. Panther seems to be not aware of the scope of this humiliation as has been shown by Umar Ibn Khattab (the 2nd Caliph). 

 

(4) My question is, why the Non-Muslim world let the Mullahs succeed in their attempt to hide this darker side of Islam? 

Yes, we are loosing this war against the Mullahs/Religious Muslims by not letting the world aware of this darker side of Islam. 

 

If we only expose this side of Islam to the world, then there would not even be 5% of the conversions that are taking place at the moment. And millions of Muslims could abandon Islam after knowing it. 

 

(5) Mr. Panther is in a Muslim majority country of Pakistan, where he could be bold enough and still say to bring such humiliation to the Non-Muslims. 

But this will not be the case with those Muslims who are living as minorities in other countries. We have already seen that the Muslims of India enthusiastically call for the Secularism instead of a sharia system unlike their brothers in Pakistan. 

Same thing will happen in this case. Big numbers of the Indian Muslims will condemn it and disassociate themselves from it. 

 

====

 

@Mariyam

 

May I request your response on this issue as a moderate Muslim? 

 

I request for no "diplomatic" answers, but your honest opinion. 

Did you already know this scope of humiliation of Non-Muslims in Islam? 

Are you disturbed about it?

Or do you still feel yourself comfortable with it? 

 

Edited June 4, 2018 by Alam_dar