ESPN Cricinfo ODI eleven of the last 25 years

[rkt.india]

8 hours ago, Gollum said:

In his career he faced these quicks upfront

 

SA: Donald, Pollock, Ntini

Pak: Wasim, Waqar, Akhtar, young Razzaq (under rated)

NZ: Bond, Cairns (not great but Southee level)

India: Srinath, Zak, Agarkar...I am serious about Sir Aggy , a good strike bowler in ODI cricket

Lanka: Vaas, Malinga

WI: Ambrose, Walsh, Dillon (under rated)

Eng: Gough (very under rated), Flintoff, Anderson

 

Pretty good bowlers, don't ya think?

Wasim, waqar, walsh, Ambrose, donald all four were at the fag end of their career and had lost Pace too.  Bond, akhtar, pollack, ntini, malinga are only bowlers of credentials in ODIs.

[gattaca]

@GollumDhoni tonked akthar, Asif and Sami for fun. Dhoni was great in his young days fearless batting. India won in Australia as well. Sometimes YouTube helps.

[Lala]

13 hours ago, Anoop K said:

Klusener played 171 games , scored 26.1 runs per innings compared to Afridi's 21.85. Took 192 wickets in 164 innings he bowled with better strike rate, better wicket per innings and better average than Afridi.

Pinch hitters needs strike rate than average and Afridi had. He got 395 wickets man.More runs and sixers. Played more matches that shows fitness level.  Experience campaigner. Finally Afridi is more famous than trundler Klusner.

[Gollum]

4 hours ago, gattaca said:

@GollumDhoni tonked akthar, Asif and Sami for fun. Dhoni was great in his young days fearless batting. India won in Australia as well. Sometimes YouTube helps.

Dhoni tonked them on flat SC pitches. He was not that special in SA, Aus and Eng. India won in Australia but what was Dhoni's contribution? Never said he wasn't great, I rate him as the 2nd greatest behind Gilly.

Edited June 20, 2018 by Gollum

[philcric]

1 hour ago, Lala said:

Pinch hitters needs strike rate than average and Afridi had. He got 395 wickets man.More runs and sixers. Played more matches that shows fitness level.  Experience campaigner. Finally Afridi is more famous than trundler Klusner.

 

Depends on the team combination too.

 

If the team has 3 pacers plus one of Warne/Murali, Afridi is a good option as the 2nd spinner and 7th batter.

 

If the team has both Warne and Murali, then it has to be a  pace bowling all-rounder like Klusener/Flintoff/Watson.

 

[Gollum]

4 hours ago, rkt.india said:

Wasim, waqar, walsh, Ambrose, donald all four were at the fag end of their career and had lost Pace too.  Bond, akhtar, pollack, ntini, malinga are only bowlers of credentials in ODIs.

Ws, Donald, WI bowlers etc were still there in Gilly's 1st 5-7 years of cricket (he debuted in 1996). They were still deadly, don't tell me Wasim or Donald weren't stiff challenges for rookie openers in 1996-2001 period. And they were such elite ATGs that even at their fag ends they were legitimate threats to top order batsmen. It is like saying Mcgrath was no longer a threat in 2005-07 because fag end....which is a ludicrous proposition. I named around 15 bowlers in that list, how come you have narrowed it down to 5....what credentials did the likes of Vaas, Zak, Gough, Srinath, Flintoff lack? There is no doubt the level of challenge for batsmen in ODI cricket has drastically come down. Tomorrow when 550 is a par score and a new keeper averages 80 @150 I won't place him above Dhoni, simply based on statsguru. 

[rkt.india]

18 minutes ago, Gollum said:

Dhoni tonked them on flat SC pitches. He was not that special in SA, Aus and Eng. India won in Australia but what was Dhoni's contribution? Never said he wasn't great, I rate him as the 2nd greatest behind Gilly.

and where did Gilchrist tonk them? At home or conditions similar to home. What is his record in India? 

[rkt.india]

4 minutes ago, Gollum said:

Ws, Donald, WI bowlers etc were still there in Gilly's 1st 5-7 years of cricket (he debuted in 1996). They were still deadly, don't tell me Wasim or Donald weren't stiff challenges for rookie openers in 1996-2001 period. And they were such elite ATGs that even at their fag ends they were legitimate threats to top order batsmen. It is like saying Mcgrath was no longer a threat in 2005-07 because fag end....which is a ludicrous proposition. I named around 15 bowlers in that list, how come you have narrowed it down to 5....what credentials did the likes of Vaas, Zak, Gough, Srinath, Flintoff lack? There is no doubt the level of challenge for batsmen in ODI cricket has drastically come down. Tomorrow when 550 is a par score and a new keeper averages 80 @150 I won't place him above Dhoni, simply based on statsguru. 

Vaas, Zak, Flintoff, Srinath, Gough all were average or below average ODI bowlers. Vaas was a steady bowler, mostly minnow basher.

[Gollum]

2 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

and where did Gilchrist tonk them? At home or conditions similar to home. What is his record in India? 

Avg 39.88, SR 104.51 LINK

[Gollum]

2 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Vaas, Zak, Flintoff, Srinath, Gough all were average or below average ODI bowlers. Vaas was a steady bowler, mostly minnow basher.

Zak, Srinath = 2 out of India's 3 greatest quicks

Gough = gun ODI bowler, probably England's greatest quick in that format

Flintoff = hostile quick, bowling average 24

Vaas = ATG ODI bowler especially on Asian pitches, not a minnow basher...you have to prove he was because as far as I remember he had the wood over many elite batsmen during his days as Lanka's lead. Steady so what? Many ATGs were crafted in his mould...judge his effectiveness. 

[rkt.india]

13 minutes ago, Gollum said:

Avg 39.88, SR 104.51 LINK

Dhoni has a better average in Australia, worse SR but then he batted in middle order and not in PP.

[rkt.india]

8 minutes ago, Gollum said:

Zak, Srinath = 2 out of India's 3 greatest quicks

Gough = gun ODI bowler, probably England's greatest quick in that format

Flintoff = hostile quick, bowling average 24

Vaas = ATG ODI bowler especially on Asian pitches, not a minnow basher...you have to prove he was because as far as I remember he had the wood over many elite batsmen during his days as Lanka's lead. Steady so what? Many ATGs were crafted in his mould...judge his effectiveness. 

India's greatest, yes, but in a larger picture no where near world class in ODIs.  It does not take a lot to be India's best. Ishant is 4th best test bowler of India.

 

Same with Gough being England's best ODI bowler. 

 

Yes, Andrew Flintoff i would say i was wrong. He was good and would say is the best England ODI pacer ever.

 

Vaas averages 30 if you exclude Zim and BD.

[Gollum]

23 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Dhoni has a better average in Australia, worse SR but then he batted in middle order and not in PP.

 

Bhai you are arguing simply for the sake of arguing

 

Gilly in Aus Avg 37, SR 99 LINK

Dhoni in Aus Avg 41, SR 76 LINK which drops to Avg 35, SR 72 against Aus in Aus LINK

 

As you can see averages are comparable but SR .... A SR of 85 for a middle order batsman in Aus (this era) is acceptable but Dhoni's SR seems to suggest that all he was doing there was try to survive. Besides Gilly played some ATG bowlers in the 1996-2005 period at home when Aus pitches weren't pattas. Dhoni played WC 2015 and 2016 bilateral series in Aus on absolute pancakes. 

 

Middle order, top order SR is a real issue in that era but more so in Asia/WI. In Aus top order batting was tough, you can cross check that with SRT's dismal record as opener in Aus or Hayden's ODI record. Hayden was a great ODI player, very aggressive opener but here are his stats. SR 74 in Aus, 67 in Eng, 74 in SA, 85 in NZ, 88 in India, 93 in WI LINK ....in SENA countries (more so Australia, our focus) opening was a tough job during Gilly's time, your PP-SR wallah funda doesn't hold true.

Edited June 20, 2018 by Gollum

[Gollum]

@rkt.india I forgot about Heath Streak, a very good ODI bowler. Also miles better than any Bangladeshi pacer Dhoni had to face in his career. See, even minnows back then had quality in their fast bowling ranks. 

[Gollum]

19 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

India's greatest, yes, but in a larger picture no where near world class in ODIs.  It does not take a lot to be India's best. Ishant is 4th best test bowler of India.

 

Same with Gough being England's best ODI bowler. 

 

Yes, Andrew Flintoff i would say i was wrong. He was good and would say is the best England ODI pacer ever.

 

Vaas averages 30 if you exclude Zim and BD.

For most parts of their career Srinath/Zak were as good as Malinga and in an earlier post you said Malinga had credentials. Moreover both of them were better with the new ball than the Lankan and hence a more direct threat to opener Gilly. 

 

Gough was brilliant in ODI cricket, if you watched Eng matches back then you would agree. 

 

Vaas is an ODI ATG who was especially lethal on Asian pitches. As an Indian fan you couldn't have possibly forgotten how he screwed our maharathis over and over again. One of the greatest bowlers in ICC WCs, prefer him over Akhtar any day of the week. Besides Zim had decent batting those days and you can't be selective in excluding stats to judge players. Remove SRT's matches against Zim/BD and pre 1995 Lanka and he will have <50 average....

[gattaca]

4 hours ago, Gollum said:

Dhoni tonked them on flat SC pitches. He was not that special in SA, Aus and Eng. India won in Australia but what was Dhoni's contribution? Never said he wasn't great, I rate him as the 2nd greatest behind Gilly.

You really need to see highlights of cb series we won. Dhoni was finisher in one of the finals it was a last over finish as well. How many players tonked akthar on flat pitches ? 

[zep1706]

I would take Ponting over Lara in ODIs.