cricketrulez Posted November 11, 2018 Share Posted November 11, 2018 On 11/3/2018 at 11:12 AM, Muloghonto said: Jesus didn't invent a drastic religion either, his religion too is influenced by the Old Testament. Stop with your hindu superiorist nonsense that Jainism and Buddhism are part of Hinduism. They are not. And stop lying that it is because western indologists- your go-to racist tilt whenver you don't like conclusions about indian history or hindu religion- are behind this. They are not. Its the Jains and buddhists themselves who protested the classification of jains and buddhists as hindus. Stop trying to erase the religious minorities in India by tagging them as Hindus when they don't want to be tagged as hindus. you are right. Jesus did not invent a drastic new religion. its the nutjobs who did after is alleged resurrection. Still none of those nutjobs can expalin why they think old testament is invalid, when "gospel" declares jesus as saying "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted November 11, 2018 Share Posted November 11, 2018 3 minutes ago, cricketrulez said: you are right. Jesus did not invent a drastic new religion. its the nutjobs who did after is alleged resurrection. Still none of those nutjobs can expalin why they think old testament is invalid, when "gospel" declares jesus as saying "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. its complicated, but the basic idea is, apparently when Jesus extended 'Gods people' from racially Jewish to ideologically Christian, he said something about making some of the customs & 'jewish tradtions' optional/inapplicable to the gentiles. This is where Jesus really *starts* a new religion from Judaism, by fundamentally altering its racial makeup factor. Had he not done so, i highly doubt Christians would be anything more than just a sect of Judaism like the Hasidics for eg. But the bible is a highly contradictory book. So anything really can be justified/nullified by the bible, practically speaking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 16 minutes ago, cricketrulez said: you make it sound like brahmins led this effort? Given brahmins are ~3-10% of the population and of tne physically the weakest among the groupings, what has stopped the groups from running the brahmins over. Err, religious clergy class has always had disproportionate influence in shaping their position of power, in many, many societies. Brahmins are no exceptions to this. As clergy, they tend to passively enforce this via ritual restrictions and preaching activities. Though hinduism is nowhere as 'preachy' as the Abrahamics, we still have tons and tons of people going around 'preaching' these orthodoxies- many of whom are Brahmins themselves. 16 minutes ago, cricketrulez said: Since you sound like an expert on castes, why don't you name the various castes that you know of and how they came about. How they came about is a very complex mechanism, as well as the jatis within the castes. This is not really a sub-topic in a post but a huge thread in itself, neither do i claim to be an expert on the matter- there are hardly any in the whole world. But i can discuss it to some degree,i'd think. Anyways, what the castes are, what groupings they follow etc. does NOT change the fact that it is an ill feature of Hinduism - where marital & social lines are drawn on a genetic makeup of sorts, with the 'locked in' caste system, that *is* in effect for the last hundreds to more than two thousand years. Trying to white-wash it as 'oh not so bad/was awesome for old times' etc, is not going to change the fact that it is an ill feature, all round, today and has been for atleast several hundreds of years itself and needs to be rooted out. Not defended or minimized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cricketrulez Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 25 minutes ago, Muloghonto said: its complicated, but the basic idea is, apparently when Jesus extended 'Gods people' from racially Jewish to ideologically Christian, he said something about making some of the customs & 'jewish tradtions' optional/inapplicable to the gentiles. This is where Jesus really *starts* a new religion from Judaism, by fundamentally altering its racial makeup factor. Had he not done so, i highly doubt Christians would be anything more than just a sect of Judaism like the Hasidics for eg. But the bible is a highly contradictory book. So anything really can be justified/nullified by the bible, practically speaking. You sound exactly like christians who want to defend the bible. Just sayin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cricketrulez Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 (edited) 31 minutes ago, Muloghonto said: Err, religious clergy class has always had disproportionate influence in shaping their position of power, in many, many societies. Brahmins are no exceptions to this. As clergy, they tend to passively enforce this via ritual restrictions and preaching activities. Though hinduism is nowhere as 'preachy' as the Abrahamics, we still have tons and tons of people going around 'preaching' these orthodoxies- many of whom are Brahmins themselves. How they came about is a very complex mechanism, as well as the jatis within the castes. This is not really a sub-topic in a post but a huge thread in itself, neither do i claim to be an expert on the matter- there are hardly any in the whole world. But i can discuss it to some degree,i'd think. Anyways, what the castes are, what groupings they follow etc. does NOT change the fact that it is an ill feature of Hinduism - where marital & social lines are drawn on a genetic makeup of sorts, with the 'locked in' caste system, that *is* in effect for the last hundreds to more than two thousand years. Trying to white-wash it as 'oh not so bad/was awesome for old times' etc, is not going to change the fact that it is an ill feature, all round, today and has been for atleast several hundreds of years itself and needs to be rooted out. Not defended or minimized. Glad I asked the question. You could have said you don't know the answer. Looks you are stuck in the lower caste upper caste story and taking the convenient way out. entertain me. Name the castes that you know off. FTR, I'm an athiest. Born and brought up in a brahmin family. Never practiced the religious crap as an adult. The reason i'm asking is, if caste system is part of hinduism, caste system in south india should look exactly like it does in bengal where you claim you grew up. Go ahead name the castes that you know off. Edited November 12, 2018 by cricketrulez Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 1 hour ago, cricketrulez said: Glad I asked the question. You could have said you don't know the answer. Looks you are stuck in the lower caste upper caste story and taking the convenient way out. entertain me. Name the castes that you know off. Not a story. Reality. I know this first hand. As i said, i do come from brahmin family, know plenty of brahmins. This discrimination exists. Period. 1 hour ago, cricketrulez said: FTR, I'm an athiest. Born and brought up in a brahmin family. Never practiced the religious crap as an adult. Same. 1 hour ago, cricketrulez said: The reason i'm asking is, if caste system is part of hinduism, caste system in south india should look exactly like it does in bengal where you claim you grew up. Go ahead name the castes that you know off. No, it shouldn't. The loosely held upper-lower caste distinctions and discrimination exists, though WHICH caste gets upper/lower status, is not set in stone ( as they merge into Jatis). This does not change the fact that brahmins, no-matter whether in Bengal or TN, are all discriminatory towards Dalits, for eg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 1 hour ago, cricketrulez said: You sound exactly like christians who want to defend the bible. Just sayin. DUH. I am explaining the mechanism of what THEY say - you asked, so i provided the answer. Not saying thats my belief, simply saying thats what Christians say... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cricketrulez Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 3 minutes ago, Muloghonto said: No, it shouldn't. The loosely held upper-lower caste distinctions and discrimination exists, though WHICH caste gets upper/lower status, is not set in stone ( as they merge into Jatis). This does not change the fact that brahmins, no-matter whether in Bengal or TN, are all discriminatory towards Dalits, for eg. what are jatis? name a few. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 5 minutes ago, cricketrulez said: what are jatis? name a few. Irrelevant, really, since its obfuscation to the point i am making. Do you really think that Brahmins do not look down upon lower castes ? yes/No please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cricketrulez Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 33 minutes ago, Muloghonto said: Irrelevant, really, since its obfuscation to the point i am making. Do you really think that Brahmins do not look down upon lower castes ? yes/No please. No. it is not. If you don't understand the root of an issue and beat on a symptom you won't get anywhere. think I have asked you to name castes or jatis a couple of times and you have avoid it. Give it the ol college try. don't be shy now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 1 hour ago, cricketrulez said: No. it is not. If you don't understand the root of an issue and beat on a symptom you won't get anywhere. We can get to the root of the issue AFTER we can agree on the symptoms and the conclusion that symptoms are bad and the issue + symptoms need to go away. 1 hour ago, cricketrulez said: think I have asked you to name castes or jatis a couple of times and you have avoid it. Give it the ol college try. don't be shy now. Its irrelevant to the point being made. Hinduism has caste-based discrimination that is ill and need to be called out for it. Simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cricketrulez Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 (edited) 44 minutes ago, Muloghonto said: We can get to the root of the issue AFTER we can agree on the symptoms and the conclusion that symptoms are bad and the issue + symptoms need to go away. Its irrelevant to the point being made. Hinduism has caste-based discrimination that is ill and need to be called out for it. Simple. Still have no answers for my questions huh? i'll play along symptom: systematic discrimination based on caste/jati at birth. the burden is on you to prove that hinduism dictates and codifies caste system and you also have to explain why paks have caste system, given 90+ percent of the population are not hindus. I'll wait. this should be entertaining. Edited November 12, 2018 by cricketrulez Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 14 hours ago, cricketrulez said: Still have no answers for my questions huh? i'll play along symptom: systematic discrimination based on caste/jati at birth. the burden is on you to prove that hinduism dictates and codifies caste system and you also have to explain why paks have caste system, given 90+ percent of the population are not hindus. I'll wait. this should be entertaining. Because caste system is a socio-religious principle, hence its justifications are both religious and social. And IMO it has persisted this long because of hindus who like to run and hide away under the 'its a social phenomenon, kyaa karein' mentality, without having the cojones to take the bull by its horns and call out the religious component of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coffee_rules Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 All the discourse on casteism is only from political standpoint, getting reservation and protecting vote-banks. There is no religious discourse saying or justifying it. Nobody goes around like Zakir naik and is preaching the superiority of upper castes over lower castes. Hindus have reformed time and again even before Islam came, starting with Buddha. Charvaka followers was also respected and given Rishi status (Brihaspati). cricketrulez and UrmiSinhaRay 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 19 minutes ago, coffee_rules said: All the discourse on casteism is only from political standpoint, getting reservation and protecting vote-banks. There is no religious discourse saying or justifying it. False. Manu-Smriti does justify it openly. There are several other literature in Hinduism that make references to it. You may argue that Manu-smriti is not absolute like the Koran is to Muslims, but its still part of Hindu literature, much like many lesser hadiths are to Islam. 19 minutes ago, coffee_rules said: Nobody goes around like Zakir naik and is preaching the superiority of upper castes over lower castes. No, but plenty of sadhu-babas go around re-enforcing the purity of brahmins and impurity of lower castes all the time. 19 minutes ago, coffee_rules said: Hindus have reformed time and again even before Islam came, starting with Buddha. Charvaka followers was also respected and given Rishi status (Brihaspati). They were given Rishi status by society. Not by the Vedics/hindus of ancient times. They were called immoral heretics, much like how Buddha himself is maligned in several puranas. Hindu reformation regarding caste system is incomplete and needs to be completed. Whether one calls it caste/jati/varna - all these systems are counter-productive and irrelevant today for ANY purpose. Even if you want to make a case for it existing to prevent inbreeding, its still not required anymore today, where simple genetic test determines who is related and who isn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coffee_rules Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 12 minutes ago, Muloghonto said: False. Manu-Smriti does justify it openly. There are several other literature in Hinduism that make references to it. You may argue that Manu-smriti is not absolute like the Koran is to Muslims, but its still part of Hindu literature, much like many lesser hadiths are to Islam. That's false In today's world there is no status given to Manu-smriti other than Jholawala JNUtype social science activists. I am pretty sure nobody today keeps a Manu-smriti at home and worships like the Granth, Quran or Bible. Gita/Ramayana/Mahabharata are kept more. 12 minutes ago, Muloghonto said: No, but plenty of sadhu-babas go around re-enforcing the purity of brahmins and impurity of lower castes all the time. Babas have small cult following. Show me somebody of the stature of Udipi Mutts, or the Shankaracharyas of kanchi, Puri etc vouching the superiority of upper caste. Hinduism is not represented by these dhongi babas. 12 minutes ago, Muloghonto said: Hindu reformation regarding caste system is incomplete and needs to be completed. Whether one calls it caste/jati/varna - all these systems are counter-productive and irrelevant today for ANY purpose. Even if you want to make a case for it existing to prevent inbreeding, its still not required anymore today, where simple genetic test determines who is related and who isn't. Jathis were mainly for professional retention only. Certain skills were taught to next generation, they were classified as certain jathi to safeguard the profession. Sculptors, Metallurgists (esp Zinc and steel in early India). Even fishermen have their castes. Trader castes would safeguard their communities and even finance poor ones who had failed and had losses. Discrimination has to be stopped, there is no justification for that. but for safeguarding preofessions which are being lost because their skill/art is not needed anymore. cricketrulez 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 4 minutes ago, coffee_rules said: That's false In today's world there is no status given to Manu-smriti other than Jholawala JNUtype social science activists. I am pretty sure nobody today keeps a Manu-smriti at home and worships like the Granth, Quran or Bible. Gita/Ramayana/Mahabharata are kept more. Irrelevant. Nobody keeps reams and reams of Hadiths in their homes either. Does not mean that many Islamic practices are formed by the Hadiths, which the religious ones are well aware of. Same with Manusmriti. 4 minutes ago, coffee_rules said: Babas have small cult following. Show me somebody of the stature of Udipi Mutts, or the Shankaracharyas of kanchi, Puri etc vouching the superiority of upper caste. Hinduism is not represented by these dhongi babas. Small cult following but mass general acceptance. Nobody goes up to a baba and goes 'you are a fraud/you spread bakwaas' either. The silent majority, just like in Islam its a tiny % of nutters driving nutty behaviour but silent majority is enabling them. 4 minutes ago, coffee_rules said: Jathis were mainly for professional retention only. Certain skills were taught to next generation, they were classified as certain jathi to safeguard the profession. No, not safeguard the profession. Safeguard the family. If i teach my skills to only my kids, its not safegurding the profession- its safeguarding my family. Natural progression that such safeguarding of profession turned into a genetic based discrimination. 4 minutes ago, coffee_rules said: Sculptors, Metallurgists (esp Zinc and steel in early India). Even fishermen have their castes. Trader castes would safeguard their communities and even finance poor ones who had failed and had losses. Yep. And all this is anti-mobility of the masses and counter-productive to betterment of society. hence should be decried. 4 minutes ago, coffee_rules said: Discrimination has to be stopped, there is no justification for that. but for safeguarding preofessions which are being lost because their skill/art is not needed anymore. Safeguarding profession is a poor excuse for jati classification. it does not require it. The only requirement is for the families to make sure their progeny gets the skill. There is no need for jati for safeguarding any profession. An endangered profession is far better served by throwing the door open to let ANYONE interested take it, instead of throwing up barriers in the name of jati. Alam_dar 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coffee_rules Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 39 minutes ago, Muloghonto said: Small cult following but mass general acceptance. Nobody goes up to a baba and goes 'you are a fraud/you spread bakwaas' either. The silent majority, just like in Islam its a tiny % of nutters driving nutty behaviour but silent majority is enabling them. https://www.google.com/search?q=akhil+bharatiya+akhara+parishad+list+of+fake+babas&rlz=1C1CHBD_enUS766FR766&oq=Akhil+Bharatiya+Akhara+Parishad+&aqs=chrome.2.69i57j0l5.2376j0j9&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 "Akhil Bharatiya Akhara Parishad, the top body of Hindu sadhus" listed a list of fake sadhus. Bad secular comparison! The babas are lowlifes, but don't go around preaching people to blow up themselves in crowded markets. 39 minutes ago, Muloghonto said: No, not safeguard the profession. Safeguard the family. If i teach my skills to only my kids, its not safegurding the profession- its safeguarding my family. Natural progression that such safeguarding of profession turned into a genetic based discrimination. Yep. And all this is anti-mobility of the masses and counter-productive to betterment of society. hence should be decried. Safeguarding profession is a poor excuse for jati classification. it does not require it. The only requirement is for the families to make sure their progeny gets the skill. There is no need for jati for safeguarding any profession. An endangered profession is far better served by throwing the door open to let ANYONE interested take it, instead of throwing up barriers in the name of jati. It was open for all, whoever wanted to learn the skill would be inducted into the jaathi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 1 minute ago, coffee_rules said: https://www.google.com/search?q=akhil+bharatiya+akhara+parishad+list+of+fake+babas&rlz=1C1CHBD_enUS766FR766&oq=Akhil+Bharatiya+Akhara+Parishad+&aqs=chrome.2.69i57j0l5.2376j0j9&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 "Akhil Bharatiya Akhara Parishad, the top body of Hindu sadhus" listed a list of fake sadhus. Bad secular comparison! The babas are lowlifes, but don't go around preaching people to blow up themselves in crowded markets. Not preaching people to blow themselves up for jannat, does not change the fact that they are propagating belief systems that are still injurious to general society. Again, hindus and hinduism have to stop hiding its ills as 'we are not the shittiest around'. So what. Do you go around justifying every shitty action you do as ' atleast i am not a genocider, murderer or rapist. So when i spit on you, dont freak out but think of murderers' ?!? What kind of bakwaas what-aboutism is this ? 1 minute ago, coffee_rules said: It was open for all, whoever wanted to learn the skill would be inducted into the jaathi. It was. But there is still no need for it. It inherently serves no purpose to safeguard the skills - it serves purpose to make people into clans and throw barriers around professions and knowledge - which is exactly what happened. That is why jati system became caste system and both jaati and caste are counter-productive, harmful system to society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coffee_rules Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 (edited) 35 minutes ago, Muloghonto said: Not preaching people to blow themselves up for jannat, does not change the fact that they are propagating belief systems that are still injurious to general society. Again, hindus and hinduism have to stop hiding its ills as 'we are not the shittiest around'. So what. Do you go around justifying every shitty action you do as ' atleast i am not a genocider, murderer or rapist. So when i spit on you, dont freak out but think of murderers' ?!? What kind of bakwaas what-aboutism is this ? You brought about the false equivalence of comparing majority being silent among Hindus and Muslims. What will happen when they are silent? In case of Hindus a few babas will get rich, while in case of Muslims, people die. So, no comparison there. Plus, Hindus are not silent, they are producing lists of fake babas. So, another myth falsified. They are not the same. Regarding other views on ill-wills of Hinduism, Communists have used useful idiots aka Atheists to beat up religion. Edited November 12, 2018 by coffee_rules Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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