BestVRest Posted January 2, 2012 Posted January 2, 2012 Yep have to agree Botham and Dev were very similar Kapil had to struggle on those flat tracks in India, if Dev was Australian or West Indian he would have been talked about much more. And would easily have been better than Imran and the rest.
ganeshran Posted January 2, 2012 Posted January 2, 2012 I was wrong. Imran's 40 wicket series came in Pakistan and not India. It was in 82/83 http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/40560.html?class=1;series=248;template=results;type=bowling;view=innings
Lurker Posted January 2, 2012 Posted January 2, 2012 IIRC Imran picked up 40 wickets in a series in India too... CT might know exact one That was in Pakistan. Terrific performance and widely considered one of the best ever. FInished many an Indian cricketing greats career including Vishwanath. He had two very good series against India in the early 80s (before the 87 series which was Wasim's series as a bowler more than Imran's although Wasim didnt pick too many wickets but he established himself as a bloody fast bowler)...one of them was in Pakistan and one in India. And in both of them he was unplayable. Indeed. Kapil also had a couple of terrific series. Once he took 32 wickets in India and in the 40 wickets series of Imran, he had 20 odd wickets. I concur with you that while Akram did not take many a wickets he often came across as being more threatening. In fact that is my memory of Pakistan in 80s. Akram was the main threat, Imran was mostly first change bowler. This is primarily against India of course.
Lurker Posted January 2, 2012 Posted January 2, 2012 But, if you were to compare them as ARs doing AR-giri simultaneously i.e. impacting a game with both bat and ball during a Test, a series or a couple of seasons consistently then Kapil Dev and Ian Botham are in a different league to Imran and Hadlee. I'd say Kapil is slightly ahead of Ian Botham but I admit that is because of my bias Hadlee was definitely the best bowler among the four followed by Imran. Kapil was the best batsmen among the four followed by Botham. The reason I go with Imran ahead of even Sobers is because he was just awesome in that one thing that no other team sport has such unique dependency upon - captaincy See these two points are what I have problem comprehending. And you are not the only person who has suggested that Vijay. It is often said Kapil was the best all-rounder, or atleast the top dawg amongst the four..and then quickly brought down by Imran's captaincy skills. I mean when did captaincy became a requisite for being an all-rounder? If so then we should promptly chuck out folks like Keith Miller from the debate since he never captained. More importantly every team is different. And hence skippership is different. What Imran did to Pakistan he would never have been able to do in India, let alone England or Australia. None of Indian greats, Kapil, Sunny, SRT, Dravid...or successful skippers like Dhoni, Pataudi, Ganguly ever managed the dictatorship that Imran enjoyed. The luxury of picking who to play, when to play. Outside the subcontinent its the same story. Bradman, Brearely, Waugh, Lloyd etc...they all had a say but none ran the team like their fiefdom. So how can you even bring that into equation??? On the other hand fielding is an aspect that personally I would always consider important trait for an all time great all-rounder. And Imran sucked at it :giggle:
Vijay.Sharma Posted January 2, 2012 Posted January 2, 2012 See these two points are what I have problem comprehending. And you are not the only person who has suggested that Vijay. It is often said Kapil was the best all-rounder' date=' or atleast the top dawg amongst the four..and then quickly brought down by Imran's captaincy skills. I mean when did captaincy became a requisite for being an all-rounder? If so then we should promptly chuck out folks like Keith Miller from the debate since he never captained.[/quote']In the mid-80s when all four were going head to head and people were looking at their performances with both bat and ball, Kapil Dev and Ian Botham came out tops and I would say Kapsy was slightly better coz of my own bias. The captaincy bit was not in reference to AR as such but with reference to greatest Test cricketer ever thingy.
Lurker Posted January 2, 2012 Posted January 2, 2012 I was wrong. Imran's 40 wicket series came in Pakistan and not India. It was in 82/83 http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/40560.html?class=1;series=248;template=results;type=bowling;view=innings Coming back to the 82/83 series against India one thing I would say is how Imran's effort were spoken of in glowing terms in India, and around the world. This particular series was before my time so I only read about it a few years later. During 80s we had some terrific performance from bowlers. Imran's 40. Hadlee's 30 odds in a 3 Test series. Marshall and West Indies greats performance. Kapil's wickets etc. There were also outliers like Aldemann against England. However Imran and Hadlee would possibly make 1-2 as best bowling performance in the decade. What also stands out for me is how it was compared against the past greats, like Sydeny Barnes performance of yesteryears. The reason it stands out is because Imran and Hadlee were celebrated but Barnes was never brought down. Very different to modern era where it is routine to see "So you think Lohmann was greatest" retardness just to promote modern day greats. xxx
ravishingravi Posted January 2, 2012 Posted January 2, 2012 I ll go with Imran Khan. At his peak, one of the best bowlers in the world. Probably had the best technique as a batsman and of course the best leader of the generation.
Lurker Posted January 2, 2012 Posted January 2, 2012 Well you cannot hold it against him that he was able to have that dictatorship....it's just that Pakistani cricket runs like that. Moreover we cannot evaluate on what might have been (or in this case, might not have been) but based on what he did in whatever the prevalent circumstances were. I think he did great. And I get that. His skippership was terrific and quite valuable for Pakistan, but when I end up doing comparisons skippership just doesnt get in my criteria. For the same reason I wouldnt pick Ponting or Waugh ahead of SRT or Richards because they have better captaincy credentials (future generations might do that though). And atleast your criteria is cricket oriented. I have also met folks, Pakistanis and non-Pakistanis who have been charmed by his persona. And Imran clearly had that. Sometime back I was teasing a British Pakistani gal, a marvelllous beauty, as to which celebrity, should he ask her, would she marry no questions asked. As I braced myself for Tom Cruise, Brad Pitts or even Arjun Rampal she answered "Oh thats easy. Imran Khan or Amitabh Bacchan". And here is the human pshycology for ya, I would have perhaps been more comfortable had she uttered a non-Indian/Pakistani...the fact that she did just made me go all jealous lol. I don't especially remember his fielding. But on the fielding aspect I can confidently say both Botham and Kapil were very good catchers - haven't seen much of Botham in the outfield but Kapil was very good in the outfield too. I think Kapil was the best fielder among Imran, Hadlee, and him but can;t include Botham here coz I don't remember much of his fielding. Botham was great in slips. One of all time best. Also a good fielder off his own bowling. Not much of an outfielder though. Kapil of course could do it all.
The Outsider Posted January 2, 2012 Posted January 2, 2012 Semi-final ko final bana diya ..... I suppose you pulled out a new thyori outta your ass to back this up ? ... :hysterical::hysterical: Is that the limit of Bhagwaan's aukaad? Semi Finals?:hysterical: BTW, Kapil in semi finals - 5/73 in 21 overs and 31 runs with one dismissal. Simply put Bhagwaan is the only all time great who has featured in 2 World Cup finals and flopped with a 100% record demonstrating legendary choking skills. Guys like Warne and Richards might have missed out the first time, but put in top performances on second attempt. :hatsoff: So once again - Bhagwaan is the only all time great who has featured in 2 World Cup finals and flopped with a 100% record demonstrating legendary choking skills.
The Outsider Posted January 2, 2012 Posted January 2, 2012 Dont know how SRT came in this thread' date= but Sachin has 233 runs in WC semi finals with 34 for 2 in 1996 and 28 for 2 in 2003. How can a discussion on all rounders be complete without Bhagwaan when he is considered a better all rounder than Sobers on ICF?
Patiala Peg Posted January 2, 2012 Posted January 2, 2012 Is that the limit of Bhagwaan's aukaad? Semi Finals?:hysterical: BTW, Kapil in semi finals - 5/73 in 21 overs and 31 runs with one dismissal. Simply put Bhagwaan is the only all time great who has featured in 2 World Cup finals and flopped with a 100% record demonstrating legendary choking skills. Guys like Warne and Richards might have missed out the first time, but put in top performances on second attempt. :hatsoff: So once again - Bhagwaan is the only all time great who has featured in 2 World Cup finals and flopped with a 100% record demonstrating legendary choking skills. He recognizes SRT's legendary choking skills. I have seen him call SRT, baasu ( stinker ) a few places. hehe..
Lurker Posted January 2, 2012 Posted January 2, 2012 How can a discussion on all rounders be complete without Bhagwaan when he is considered a better all rounder than Sobers on ICF? Nah not ICF Shwetabh, its a few usual suspects. Kind of reminds me of the whole muhawara back home - Naya musalmaan paanch baar namaaz parhta hai. It is actually quite pertinent for BB because I definitely remember him being a devout Kapil bhakt and going nuts after Imran (cheater, liar yada yada). Ever since he changed his bhagwaan he is now doing his namaaz everywhere :haha:
The Outsider Posted January 2, 2012 Posted January 2, 2012 Nah not ICF Shwetabh, its a few usual suspects. Think there are quite a few. They come in 2 categories: 1. Cricket was an amateur, non competitive sport. Obviously they won't have a problem in saying Sobers is a worse all rounder than Bhagwaan as he played with a bunch of imbeciles, while Bhagwaan has been playing with the true Devtaas of cricket. 2. We can't say anything about cross era comparisons. So, obviously we can't even say anything about who was the better all rounder between Sobers and Bhagwaan.
The Outsider Posted January 2, 2012 Posted January 2, 2012 why don't you put up SRT's numbers .... ohhh wait i know why I'll do it as soon as you can prove that World Cup Semi Final > World Cup Final. It shouldn't be that tough for you as you've already shown Bhagwaan is a greater all rounder than Sobers. Dhoni has an avg of infinity in WC finals so he is better than Richards B-> Why not? I mean, Richards is from amateur era while Dhoni is from shhoooper caampeteetive era.
ganeshran Posted January 2, 2012 Posted January 2, 2012 Cant we have one comparison thread without bringing in SRT ? :wall:
Lurker Posted January 2, 2012 Posted January 2, 2012 Cant we have one comparison thread without bringing in SRT ? :wall: Thats not possible :hysterical: What is posisble though is for you Ganesh-ji to put forth your idea of the four greats. Whats your take on the whole discussion?
ganeshran Posted January 2, 2012 Posted January 2, 2012 Thats not possible :hysterical: What is posisble though is for you Ganesh-ji to put forth your idea of the four greats. Whats your take on the whole discussion? From what limited footage I have seen of that era on youtube along with stats, my ranking is first Imran Khan and both Kapil and Botham in second place. Imran has not played a lot of defining innings with the bat but he has a stellar bowling record, one of the best. He also saved a few matches for Pakistan by batting it out.
zen Posted January 2, 2012 Posted January 2, 2012 Doesn't matter who the best from the 4 is as with "latest being the greatest", SRT owns them all (see boss bhai's stats) Likes of ganesharan will say 'no data' exists to compre fab 4 with SRT, and without a meaningful scientific system in place, such comparisons cannot be done :hysterical:
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