IPL ... Speeds and Performances of Pacers and Spinners ....

[TellTheTruth]

Not only is this Impact rule killing chance of creating genuine white ball all rounders its slowly making bowlers obsolete by adding an extra batsman. Bumrah and cotzee had punjab realing at 6-77 but then Ashutosh Sharma comes in at number 8. Of course bumrah has a lot of expierence and can handle it, but a younger bowler that is often bowling on flat pitches with no help and small boundires,  they need to pad their stats against tailenders sometimes but they aren't getting that this ipl and probably never get it even in domestic competition with that rule in place. how often have we seen a bowler bowl 3 great overs this ipl and then go for 15+ in last over to spoil their stats? Maybe BCCI should just have bowling machines bowl and let teams play 12 batsman.

 

Batsman to will struggle when they play icc tournaments when they realize that jadeja or axar patel are batting a 7 behind half injured pandya at number 6 and an impact sub wont save them.

Edited April 18 by TellTheTruth

[Kron]

6 hours ago, express bowling said:

Bumrah. 141 k indipping yorker to LHB bowls Riley.

 

What a ball. !!

A great t20 bowler would be a great test bowler? Is there a correlation there? 

A great death bowler = great test bowler. Looked at some players. Dint quite add up. But great odi bowlers are generally great test bowlers too.

 

Odi is the best measuring stick then? 

[tapandrun]

5 hours ago, Kron said:

A great t20 bowler would be a great test bowler? Is there a correlation there? 

A great death bowler = great test bowler. Looked at some players. Dint quite add up. But great odi bowlers are generally great test bowlers too.

 

Odi is the best measuring stick then? 

Only gr8 T20i bowler in some sense -it would be Malinga and if leagues are also considered then to some extent Rashid (has not played much against top sides in intnl t20s).

And then there are mystery spinners.

If Bhumrah would be playing other leagues then he will also become a great t20 league bowler.

 

Malinga was good at each format because his wkt taking options were to target stumps or trap the batter for LBW which works in every cricket.

 

Taking wkts using test cricket line length and working out batter's technique is different than taking wkts in T20 cricket, batters are taking more risks playing all kind of shots and hitting every ball if there is predictability then the bowler is going for runs , batter can anticipate and get into power stance/position early and target empty areas.

 

No proper test bowler will ever find success in T20, consider it like a 100 m Sprint (only few top athletes can compete, there are only few specific ppl build for that.) its different from any other track and race event.

 

Polluck (SA intnl) willbe hit all over the park, Roach, Philander all those kind of bowlers will be finding it hard in t20s.

There will be some who argue about McGrath considering he was just line and length bowler with only small amount of deviation -- But there was alot of things which were not done before and ever since (would need another post of what he did differently)

 

Right now coaches says bowlers need variations to be successful to succeed in T20s, but most variation become usual stuff after a season or 2, would find it hard to name many bowlers with variations who were successful after 1-2 seasons its either data thing or batters are spotting variations early or could be something else.

Only player who are able to take wkts with variations over a good sample size is Bravo  but bowling was his secondary skill and if he was having a bad season he would not need to bowl and only bowl in matches or situation where his variations are working , out and out bowlers with variations cannot survive in today's day and time for more than 1-2 seasons.

 

Cricketing set-ups like Aus are going towards allrounders with big hitting capabilities and Eng are bringing batters who can dominate bowling with their new modern day style shots and get above par scores and have bowlers who can  tonk few big shots.

Rest of the set-ups are far behind to know what needs to be done.

 

So there is no great t20 bowler as such, either they have to be Malinga or some kind of Mystery bowler.

 

IMO there can be a bowling line up combination template (posted some where in this forum some where)which can work, which Pak bowling team come v.close to. RR is doing the same in some sense.

 

 

 

Edited April 19 by tapandrun

[Nikhil_cric]

7 hours ago, express bowling said:

 

Bowled way slower in test matches. 133 to 143 k range.

Bowled an 8 over spell in World Cup semifinal and was clocking 150 kph at the fag end of it. 

 

 

[express bowling]

7 hours ago, tapandrun said:

Umran can go toe to toe with Mayank on Pace.. its just that he is not confident enough

 

Mayank is default 145 to 155 k in T20s. Saw it in SMAT too. Whereas an Umran was default 143 to 153 k in 2022.

 

% of 152 k+ balls are way more for Mayank compared to any pacer after Lee and Akhtar.

 

7 hours ago, tapandrun said:

 

Siraj is recent case, Singh has been bowling full-tosses in alst few overs, Bhuvi was bowling wides and no balls.

And in general all are bowling at lower pace.

 

 

Pacers end up following the team culture.

 

Under Arun, Kohli, Shastri, even Ishant started bowling quicker. Shami too. And Bumrah was at his quickest.

 

Under Mhambrey, Dravid, Rohit every pacer is trying to bowl slower and go for swing bowling. 

[express bowling]

3 minutes ago, Nikhil_cric said:

Bowled an 8 over spell in World Cup semifinal and was clocking 150 kph at the fag end of it. 

 

 

Big difference between staying on the field for 3.5 hours and bowling 10 overs ...  and staying on the field for 6.5 hours and bowling 18 to 22 overs a day. 

[Nikhil_cric]

1 minute ago, express bowling said:

 

Big difference between staying on the field for 3.5 hours and bowling 10 overs ...  and staying on the field for 6.5 hours and bowling 18 to 22 overs a day. 

He has bowled upto 147 kph even in Tests . 

 

He can maintain pace 

[express bowling]

1 minute ago, Nikhil_cric said:

He has bowled upto 147 kph even in Tests . 

 

He can maintain pace 

 

Coetzee's average pace was much lower in tests compared to ODIs  Same for Burger. Thats not maintaining pace. 

 

Odd quick deliveries will always be bowled by pacers with ability.

 

Of course, it is possible that Coetzee was not in rhythm in that test series and may bowl quicker in subsequent test series. 

[Nikhil_cric]

16 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

Coetzee's average pace was much lower in tests compared to ODIs  Same for Burger. Thats not maintaining pace. 

 

Odd quick deliveries will always be bowled by pacers with ability.

 

Of course, it is possible that Coetzee was not in rhythm in that test series and may bow l quicker in subsequent test series. 

 

Coetzee is not a 1 paced bowler .

 

The Saffer India Series was at the end of a long season of cricket.

 

Also, there was no need to bowl particularly quick on those pitches. 

 

 

 

 

[tapandrun]

45 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

Mayank is default 145 to 155 k in T20s. Saw it in SMAT too. Whereas an Umran was default 143 to 153 k in 2022.

 

% of 152 k+ balls are way more for Mayank compared to any pacer after Lee and Akhtar.

 

 

Pacers end up following the team culture.

 

Under Arun, Kohli, Shastri, even Ishant started bowling quicker. Shami too. And Bumrah was at his quickest.

 

Under Mhambrey, Dravid, Rohit every pacer is trying to bowl slower and go for swing bowling. 

 

Mayank is more sure of his abilities and looks like has better brains than most newbies (Yes 9 overs in IPL is small sample but it look like he knows what ball to follow up).

 

Umran is not that sure even if he bowls a good ball he does not know what to bowl next, he would never bowl 2-3 back to back ~150 kmph balls but Mayank would do that.

Umran showed some barins in IPL season2 and series after that before becoming a Umran we have now, unsure of his ability, not sure what to bowl where to bowl.

 

When he was confident he was reaching new speed records every other match and it looked like he was enjoying.

 

Do not think its fair to compare Mayank to Umran at this point of time, on pace both can be equal match but rt. now Mayank is miles a head as a bowler.

If Tyagi is also in same pace bracket then he too should not be compared to Mayank and put unrealistic expectations. Mayank bowled 9 over mostly 150+ kmph no wide no no-balls do not think even Lee was this accurate at that pace.

 

It would be exiting if Ind uses all 3 Mayank , Umran and Tyagi in same match and add Bhumra to that or Harshit.

 

Current TM should no longer be persisted fielding standrads are down, fitness is down, pace is down 

 

Edited April 19 by tapandrun

[tapandrun]

3 minutes ago, Nikhil_cric said:

 

Coetzee is not a 1 paced bowler .

 

The Saffer India Series was at the end of a long season of cricket.

 

Also, there was no need to bowl particularly quick on those pitches. 

 

 

 

 

Coetzee can bowl ~150 kmph when in rhythm or if he is pushing for it, his natural pace is 140+ kmph in white balls and it decrease a fair bit in Test.

 

He seems to have stamina to bowl high speeds when needed but those are not his default speeds and it was this way before Lee and Akthar started bowling  at high pace

for sustained and longer period of times.

 

Bowlers would bowl faster spell when they needed to or when they were in v.good rhythm.

Ind bowlers lacks that bowling flat out push as hard as possible, its a good thing their white ball pace is in similar range of their red ball speeds. This is why Ind bowling needs a ~150 kmph bowler who can come in shake things up rattle batters a bit. break a budding partnership or when batter finds themselves comfortable.

 

 

 

  

[express bowling]

1 hour ago, Nikhil_cric said:

 

Coetzee is not a 1 paced bowler .

 

The Saffer India Series was at the end of a long season of cricket.

 

Also, there was no need to bowl particularly quick on those pitches. 

 

 

Most Saffers are bowling slower in tests these days. They probably don't take the format seriously after the days of Steyn, Morkel, Philander.

 

Only Indians are sustaining speeds in tests these days. Sometimes the Aussies and always Mark Wood.

[express bowling]

1 hour ago, tapandrun said:

 

Mayank is more sure of his abilities 

 

For now, he is.  But will a stint with Mhambrey mess up his thought process ?

 

Happened with Umran.

 

1 hour ago, tapandrun said:

 

Umran is not that sure even if he bowls a good ball he does not know what to bowl next, he would never bowl 2-3 back to back ~150 kmph balls but Mayank would do that.

Umran showed some barins in IPL season2 and series after that before becoming a Umran we have now, unsure of his ability, not sure what to bowl where to bowl.

 

When he was confident he was reaching new speed records every other match and it looked like he was enjoying.

 

Do not think its fair to compare Mayank to Umran at this point of time, on pace both can be equal match but rt. now Mayank is miles a head as a bowler.

If Tyagi is also in same pace bracket then he too should not be compared to Mayank and put unrealistic expectations. Mayank bowled 9 over mostly 150+ kmph no wide no no-balls do not think even Lee was this accurate at that pace.

 

It would be exiting if Ind uses all 3 Mayank , Umran and Tyagi in same match and add Bhumra to that or Harshit.

 

Current TM should no longer be persisted fielding standrads are down, fitness is down, pace is down 

 

 

 

Both Tyagi and Umran have received too much contradictory advice from different quarters and this has messed their objectivity. 

[Kron]

3 hours ago, Nikhil_cric said:

 

Coetzee is not a 1 paced bowler .

 

The Saffer India Series was at the end of a long season of cricket.

 

Also, there was no need to bowl particularly quick on those pitches. 

 

 

 

 

He can't sustain it so no. He is a 133 to 144 bowler in tests 

[Kron]

Forget about pace. Bend the back and hit the pitch hard. 

 

How many really do it these days in tests? Rabada? Maybe wood bumrah sometimes? 

Burger 

 

Cummo? 

 

Bit all these guys barring wood bowl mostly between 135 to 145 or even lower

 

Edited April 19 by Kron

[singhvivek141]

3 minutes ago, Kron said:

Forget about pace. Bend the back and hit the pitch hard. 

 

How many really do it these days in tests? Rabada? Maybe wood bumrah sometimes? 

Burger 

 

Cummo? 

 

Bit all these guys barring wood bowl mostly between 135 to 145 or even lower

 

Nortje when fit also does that.

[singhvivek141]

59 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

For now, he is.  But will a stint with Mhambrey mess up his thought process ?

 

Happened with Umran.

 

 

 

Both Tyagi and Umran have received too much contradictory advice from different quarters and this has messed their objectivity. 

Tyagi was quite accurate in his U19 days.

Although he wasn't as quick..was around 137-144 range. 

Even the over where he defended 4 runs, he was bowling around 138-142. No change ups, no slower ones, just old fashioned yorkers. Though he still has issues of bowling too wide from the crease.

 

Once he changed his action, pace went up but his radar got loose. Plus he got injured as well.

I feel now he is setting up with his new action. He still go loose often and bowl fulltosses, but his control is better than what used to be in 2022.

[Nikhil_cric]

35 minutes ago, Kron said:

He can't sustain it so no. He is a 133 to 144 bowler in tests 

Who has sustained 145 + in Tests?  Starc did that for 5 years (2015-2020)

 

Bumrah maybe for 1 year. 

 

 

[rkt.india]

44 minutes ago, Nikhil_cric said:

Who has sustained 145 + in Tests?  Starc did that for 5 years (2015-2020)

 

Bumrah maybe for 1 year. 

 

 

Only bowlers whose peak speeds touch 155 can hit 145 on a regular basis or average. Bowlers in test cricket mostly bowl at 80-90% of their peak speeds, rarely 100% or very few spells. Lee, Actor did that Whose peak speeds were 155+. Wood has done that recently.

[Kron]

1 hour ago, Nikhil_cric said:

Who has sustained 145 + in Tests?  Starc did that for 5 years (2015-2020)

 

Bumrah maybe for 1 year. 

 

 

Nobody. Maybe woody? For 3 years now

Nortje for 6 months

 

Yea no one hey.

 

In the past shoaib for entire career. 

Lee

That's it