Would you take Rizwan or Pant?

[Vijy]

23 minutes ago, speedheat said:

No way this hack pant is better than Rizwan in Lois.

he is not better than Rizwan in T20s, as I wrote a few posts above. but he is better than Rizwan in 50 over matches. only a few middle order bats have a combination of 30+ avg and 110+ SR - these are the players that are becoming increasingly essential to have a strong 50-over side (Maxi in Oz or Buttler in Eng), and Pant meets this criterion. Rizwan has modest avg and modest SR in 50 over cricket, and has not really done much there.

 

I repeat, however, that is preferable to Pant in T20s.

[vvvslaxman]

9 minutes ago, Vijy said:

he is not better than Rizwan in T20s, as I wrote a few posts above. but he is better than Rizwan in 50 over matches. only a few middle order bats have a combination of 30+ avg and 110+ SR - these are the players that are becoming increasingly essential to have a strong 50-over side (Maxi in Oz or Buttler in Eng), and Pant meets this criterion. Rizwan has modest avg and modest SR in 50 over cricket, and has not really done much there.

 

I repeat, however, that is preferable to Pant in T20s.

 

Problem he is not trustworthy like Dhoni used to be when he was new.  He is one hoick away from getting out.  His zero foot work shots , one handed mistimed shots, out of position reverse scoops make him a very high risk batsman who is completely unreliable. 

[vvvslaxman]

1 hour ago, dilliboy said:

Lol people blaming him when the top other failed miserably again..average innings how is he supposed to hit freely when the top order has collapsed again

 

That is part and parcel of the job. You cannot say "i will click only when top order clicks". 

[ShoonyaSifar]

3 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

Problem he is not trustworthy like Dhoni used to be when he was new.  He is one hoick away from getting out.  His zero foot work shots , one handed mistimed shots, out of position reverse scoops make him a very high risk batsman who is completely unreliable. 

What exactly did Dhoni do in 2006 CT and 2007 ODI WC - both tournaments e went out in the first round? His scores in 2007 ODI WC were 0, 29, 0 and yet 4 months later he was appointed the T20 captain. 

 

 

 

[vvvslaxman]

1 minute ago, ShoonyaSifar said:

What exactly did Dhoni do in 2006 CT and 2007 ODI WC - both tournaments e went out in the first round? His scores in 2007 ODI WC were 0, 29, 0 and yet 4 months later he was appointed the T20 captain. 

 

 

 

 

Pant across the formats has the problem. In 2007 against SA we were like what 50 or 60 odd  for 4. He and Rohit put up a big partnership to rescue us. Dhoni for a very long time was the most reliable batsman for us. Pant is quiet the opposite. Today was a classic example. Zero footwork swing. 

 

[R!TTER]

Tulleybaaz for WT20 but Pants probably still anywhere else.

[R!TTER]

2 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

Dhoni for a very long time was the most reliable batsman

For a relatively short time, what he had was the backup of peak Yuvra, Raina, even in form Irfan, Yusuf at the time & some others like Uthappa or even Sharma from time to time. He was the anchor & post 2011 drowned us in a lot of chases with his anchorship role! If it weren't for VIrat, RGS & Dhawan we'd have lost more than half of our LO games due to his approach post 2011 

Edited October 31, 2021 by R!TTER

[ShoonyaSifar]

2 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

Pant across the formats has the problem. In 2007 against SA we were like what 50 or 60 odd  for 4. He and Rohit put up a big partnership to rescue us. Dhoni for a very long time was the most reliable batsman for us. Pant is quiet the opposite. Today was a classic example. Zero footwork swing. 

 

How is Pant's 39(30) coming in at 20/3 anyways inferior to Dhoni's performance in that match? And I see how nicely you have ignored his 2007 ODI WC performances.

 

 

[Try_Ball]

2 minutes ago, R!TTER said:

For a relaitvely shprt time, what he had was the backup of peak Yuvra, Raina, even in form Irfan, Yusuf at the time & some others like Uthappa or even Sharma from time to time. He was the anchor & post 2011 drowned us in a lot of chases with his anchorship role! If it weren't for VIrat, RGS & Dhawan we'd have lost more than half of our LO games due to his approcah post 2011 

Not entirely true.  Dhoni kept you until the game in the end -  If given a choice I rather still keep rotating the strike and take the game until the 19th and 20th over while chasing to give you a chance.

The longer you stretch the game - the more pressure you put on the bowling side as well.

Pant gives you neither -  Neither can Pant slog and score big hits but he lacks the ability to even take singles and rotate the strike and take the game deep - First inch of pressure and Pant is more than happy to freeze himself and do a bling slog and walk off 

 

[vvvslaxman]

1 minute ago, R!TTER said:

For a relaitvely shprt time, what he had was the backup of peak Yuvra, Raina, even in form Irfan, Yusuf at the time & some others like Uthappa or even Sharma from time to time. He was the anchor & post 2011 drowned us in a lot of chases with his anchorship role! If it weren't for VIrat, RGS & Dhawan we'd have lost more than half of our LO games due to his approcah post 2011 

 

Even the washed up Dhoni could protect his wicket and survive like he did at the MCG while batting with kedhar Jadhav.  Pant has not quiet reached that level yet in the limited overs  Famous match was when he added 100 with Ashwin against Pakistan after India was 29/5. Then later this one. Come on. I like to take a dig at Dhoni as much as anyone. It is insulting to compare Pant with Dhoni.

 

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/australia-tour-of-india-2013-14-647237/india-vs-australia-3rd-odi-647253/full-scorecard

 

 

[vvvslaxman]

6 minutes ago, ShoonyaSifar said:

How is Pant's 39(30) coming in at 20/3 anyways inferior to Dhoni's performance in that match? And I see how nicely you have ignored his 2007 ODI WC performances.

 

 

 

Why do you pick and choose. Choose the entire career of Pant. He is very unreliable.

[ShoonyaSifar]

Just now, vvvslaxman said:

 

Even the washed up Dhoni could protect his wicket and survive like he did at the MCG while batting with kedhar Jadhav.  Pant has not quiet reached that level yet in the limited overs  Famous match was when he added 100 with Ashwin against Pakistan after India was 29/5. Then later this one. Come on. I like to take a dig at Dhoni as much as anyone. It is insulting to compare Pant with Dhoni.

 

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/australia-tour-of-india-2013-14-647237/india-vs-australia-3rd-odi-647253/full-scorecard

 

 

Indeed it is. How can you compare a career without an oversees test 100 vs one with some of the historical heroics in a merely 2 year long career

[ShoonyaSifar]

2 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

Why do you pick and choose. Choose the entire career of Pant. He is very unreliable.

LOL to show Dhoni was useful in ICC trophies early in his career, you had to chose ONE match vs SA and then you're asking me not to pick and chose

[vvvslaxman]

Just now, ShoonyaSifar said:

Indeed it is. How can you compare a career without an oversees test 100 vs one with some of the historical heroics in a merely 2 year long career

We are talking about LOI lol Why are you jumping to tests. I never complained about Pant's test performances. 

[vvvslaxman]

Just now, ShoonyaSifar said:

LOL to show Dhoni was useful in ICC trophies early in his career, you had to chose ONE match vs SA and then you're asking me not to pick and chose

 

 Until Dhoni starts playing India never knew how to chase totals consistently.  His onslaught in Pakistan was a breath of fresh air. Pant hasn't quiet  gotten there yet. Infact he shouldn't even be an automatic in T20.

[R!TTER]

2 hours ago, Try_Ball said:

Not entirely true.  Dhoni kept you until the game in the end

Yes it isn't exactly black & white but his approach more often than not worked at times when the RR was not such a big issue, if you remember GG's criticism of taking it (too) deep during 2011/12 tri series in Oz - I'm not  sure of here but at other forums I do remember many supporting that thought & over the years as we've seen taking it *ing deep is retarded especially if you have the ability to finish it earlier!

[Try_Ball]

Just now, R!TTER said:

Yes it isn't exactly black & white but his approach more often than not worked at times when the RR was not such a big issue, if you remember GG's criticism of taking it (too) deep during 2011/12 tri series in Oz - I'm not  sure of here but at other forums I do remember many supporting that thought & over the years as we've seen taking it *ing deep is retarded especially if you have the ability to finish it earlier!

Dhoni backed himself more than not to take it deep and rightfully so , He created the psychological edge by putting pressure on the other team - Bowlers can buckle when they have 10 odd runs to defend in the last over especially when you know the batsman has the ability to hit big as well.  The deeper you take the game - the better chance you give yourself   -   No ball/ wide / over throw / missed catches / full tosses all happen under pressure and bowler more often than not would be more under the pressure when defending 10-15 odd runs in the last over with a batsman who can hit

Pant is literally a walking wicket  - He is not able to rotate the strike and take it deep and put the pressure back on the bowlers.  What good is that?  The guy plays 10-15 balls and throws his wicket away and is one stupid shot away from a wicket regardless of whether he comes in at at the 12th over or the 15th over or the 18th over 

[ShoonyaSifar]

5 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

 Until Dhoni starts playing India never knew how to chase totals consistently.  His onslaught in Pakistan was a breath of fresh air. Pant hasn't quiet  gotten there yet. Infact he shouldn't even be an automatic in T20.

Pant's onslaught vs England (his last ODI series) was equally breathtaking, go watch his batting again.

 

Problem is ICC failures, same that Dhoni had till the 2011 WC final knock.

[R!TTER]

2 hours ago, Try_Ball said:

He created the psychological edge by putting pressure on the other team

Except that's not how it works - you remember the saying there's many a slip between the cup & the lip?

 

With more time there's more chances of doing (mutiple) things wrong. That's simple logic - the more chances (balls) the oppostion gets the more chances of their win. That's also why the old adage - the bowler just needs one ball to take a wicket holds true!

 

The only exceptions being pitches where batting gets easier, like with early moisture, or when there's more dew expected in the latter half of the innings. When you are set finish it quickly or at least as quickly as possible. Yes there's also the element of targetting the part time or weak link bowlers but that rarely happend in such chases!

[Try_Ball]

2 minutes ago, R!TTER said:

Except that's not how it works - you remember the saying there's many a slip between the cup & the lip?

 

With more time there's more chances of doing (mutiple) things wrong. That's simple logic - the more chances (balls) the oppostion gets the more chances of their win. That's also why the old adage - the bowler just needs one ball to take a wicket holds true!

 

The only exceptions being pitches where batting gets easier, like with early moisture, or when there's more dew expected in the latter half of the innings. When you are set finish it quickly or at least as quickly as possible. Yes there's also the element of targetting the part time or weak link bowlers but that rarely happend in such chases!

 

Exactly and that's why you back yourself.  Dhoni ended up winning the games more often than not when he took it deep. 

Its Risk probability vs Risk severity -   Dhoni gave himself a low probability of making a mistake by taking singles -  When you want to take a game deep - you are focusing on taking singles - Risk probability low .  Bowlers on the other side when have a higher pressure on them when trying to take wickets and contain scoring  -    Imagine  20 runs needed off 15 balls  -  Would you rather hit it that point like brainless slogging like Pant and get out or would you Rather have someone like Dhoni - continue with singles and doubles and take it down to 10 runs off 6 or 7 balls left.   More often than not you would win in that situation. 

Pant - bling slogging - Risk probability and severity are both quite high.  Pant most of the times fail when tying to release the pressure - Losing your wicket puts more pressure on a chasing side than a few dot balls .