Would you take Rizwan or Pant?

[Try_Ball]

Have to say, I am mighty impressed with Rizwan - the way this guy has grown into his game has been pretty surprising . Never expected this from the guy and he has definitely impressed a lot of people out there.

 

Pant -  I am not sure if this guy is going down the right path. For all the guidance/coaching/mentors/ IPL experience/ BCCI support this guy has had  - Everytime he comes to bat - it feels like a walking wicket - Yes, he can hit you for a few sixes but rarely do you see this guy crossing 30+ runs in a T20 or ODI  -   I am not sure but his brainless batting definitely looks more Shahid Afridi than MSD style.    Seeing what Rizwan can do and how he carries the confidence to open the innings and able to take the responsibility of getting over the line without getting carried over and taking the onus to win by batting sensibly is definitely what we all desired from Rishabh pant.   

 

Rizwan looks more like in the Dhoni mould and looks like he can settle down and play the long innings and change gears and definitely take the attack to the opposition and not do brainless batting.   Pant looks like he only has one gear -  And he just comes and wants to knock everything out of the park -  Even in Australia test series -  This guy came down and tried to hit Lyon out of the park in his first few deliveries and Tim Paine missed the stumping....... 

 

Pant never gives the confidence that he can steady the innings and take the responsibility , once every 10 innings he might but he's in the system long enough to mature out but Watching him in the IPL / England series - This guy just has blind hitting mode which 1 outta every 10 matches may win you a game but I rather have a sensible bat like Rizwan who can bat steadily and also has different batting abilities. 

[vvvslaxman]

Pant looks amateurish sometimes. Even Isan Kishan looks better in that regard. Picking the right ball to go after is an art.  I don't think Pant is anywhere close to mastering it. He does this even in Test matches. In the TC final he absolutely had no problem in the middle. Out of the blue he played a brainless hoick.  This afridi style batting  is his biggest enemy. He is not even 20% of how good Adam Gilchrist was in the limited overs.  Gilchrist doesn't lose his balance like this guy does. One-handed six might look good. That means he didn't get the timing right just relied on power. Most of his attempted slogs are like that.  First and foremost thing he has to develop is taking quick singles. He is extremely poor in rotating the strike which indirectly contributes to brainless slogging. 

 

 

[sandeep]

Rizwan is in the middle of a purple patch, and is a good player.  

 

But Pant has a higher ceiling.  

[IndianRenegade]

Pant! the guy who won us the test series in Aus over rizwan any day!

[vvvslaxman]

3 minutes ago, IndianRenegade said:

Pant! the guy who won us the test series in Aus over rizwan any day!

 

In the LOI Pant is not even better than some of the domestic keepers in India.  His keeping is good. But his batting needs a lot of improvement. At this point utterly unreliable for  long knocks like how Dhoni did early in his career. Dhoni came in at 3 and made 183.

Edited October 26, 2021 by vvvslaxman

[rangeelaraja]

46 minutes ago, Try_Ball said:

Have to say, I am mighty impressed with Rizwan - the way this guy has grown into his game has been pretty surprising . Never expected this from the guy and he has definitely impressed a lot of people out there.

 

Pant -  I am not sure if this guy is going down the right path. For all the guidance/coaching/mentors/ IPL experience/ BCCI support this guy has had  - Everytime he comes to bat - it feels like a walking wicket - Yes, he can hit you for a few sixes but rarely do you see this guy crossing 30+ runs in a T20 or ODI  -   I am not sure but his brainless batting definitely looks more Shahid Afridi than MSD style.    Seeing what Rizwan can do and how he carries the confidence to open the innings and able to take the responsibility of getting over the line without getting carried over and taking the onus to win by batting sensibly is definitely what we all desired from Rishabh pant.   

 

Rizwan looks more like in the Dhoni mould and looks like he can settle down and play the long innings and change gears and definitely take the attack to the opposition and not do brainless batting.   Pant looks like he only has one gear -  And he just comes and wants to knock everything out of the park -  Even in Australia test series -  This guy came down and tried to hit Lyon out of the park in his first few deliveries and Tim Paine missed the stumping....... 

 

Pant never gives the confidence that he can steady the innings and take the responsibility , once every 10 innings he might but he's in the system long enough to mature out but Watching him in the IPL / England series - This guy just has blind hitting mode which 1 outta every 10 matches may win you a game but I rather have a sensible bat like Rizwan who can bat steadily and also has different batting abilities. 

 

 

I think there is recency bias in your thought process based on the last couple of matches.

 

If someone were watch a season/tournament on these belter wickets with Jayasuriya having a good tournament, one may think he is the greatest batsmen of all time.

 

Pant has already proven himself in Australia and England.

 

It is too early to judge Rizwan. lets see what he can come up on non subcontinental like pitches when his team is in trouble.

 

 

 

[Adi_91]

Given the unreliability of Pak players when it comes to development from a rookie to a good/great player over the years,  Pant looks likely ahead in this race. 

 

 

[deathmonger]

Rizwan is 29. Pant is 24. Rizwan was nothing when was 24.

[IndianRenegade]

16 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

In the LOI Pant is not even better than some of the domestic keepers in India.  His keeping is good. But his batting needs a lot of improvement. At this point utterly unreliable for  long knocks like how Dhoni did early in his career. Dhoni came in at 3 and made 183.

Agree, in LOI he is nowhere near his potential:

 

1. Needs to shed some weight.

2. Needs to rotate strike better

3. Needs to value is wicket more, if you score 20-30 he needs to final a way to convert it into 50+ score & ultimately a 100, while not doing tuk tuk.

 

 

[vvvslaxman]

5 minutes ago, sandeep said:

Rizwan is in the middle of a purple patch, and is a good player.  

 

But Pant has a higher ceiling.  

 

In T20 his place should not be a guarantee unless he vastly improves.

[sandeep]

2 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

In T20 his place should not be a guarantee unless he vastly improves.

So you want to drop the one guy who did well in the last game.  The one guy with really consistent power-hitting numbers over a large sample set in T20.  

 

The logic is........ what exactly?

[vvvslaxman]

1 minute ago, sandeep said:

So you want to drop the one guy who did well in the last game.  The one guy with really consistent power-hitting numbers over a large sample set in T20.  

 

The logic is........ what exactly?

 

I am talking about long term. This one innings doesn't guarantee a place for a very long run.  With 5 bowlers who can't bat his reliability is very vital. Scoring a fancy 30 and getting out doesn't help one bit.  He did the same in the semi final. A needless slog. Then test championship fiinal. Even against Pakistan he played a low percentage slog.  Kishan is his competitor. KL Rahul can keep as well. His batting has to be as good as you expect from a specialist bat.

[Try_Ball]

48 minutes ago, IndianRenegade said:

Pant! the guy who won us the test series in Aus over rizwan any day!

If Paine didn't miss that stumping , what would you say?  We won the series because of Pant or Paine ?

 

Also,  If you keep reminding yourself of that one series then aren't you disregarding his non sensical batting since then ?  His whole IPL , England series are not accounted for ?

Also,  If Pak wins this T20 or makes it to the final and Rizwan plays a big role - Isn't that bigger than Aus series win? 

Edited October 27, 2021 by Try_Ball

[kosingh]

There are certainly a few Indian players I would swap for their Pakistani counterparts. 

Rizwan for Pant is not one of them.  

[Try_Ball]

Also with Ishan Kishan in the mix , Who is giving you a better Utility - Kishan or Pant - we gotta choose one let's say if we can't play em both - especially in a shorter format like T20 -   Isn't Kishan a better bat than Pant while both pretty much equal in keeping ?

[Adi_91]

Just now, Try_Ball said:

If Paine didn't miss that stumping , what would you say?  Who won the series , Pant or Paine ?

 

Also,  If you keep reminding yourself of that one series then aren't you disregarding his non sensical batting since then ?  His whole IPL , England series are not accounted for ?

Also,  If Pak wins this T20 or makes it to the final and Rizwan plays a big role - Isn't that bigger than Aus series win? 

 

I am sorry, if we talk about what ifs from the past, then I can also talk about Bumrah's no ball that dismissed Fakhar Zaman in 2017 CT final and downplay Pak's victory then. That is not correct.

 

You are talking as if Pant is woefully out of form. Please, he scored runs in the IPL, warm up games and in the first game. Yeah, may not have made a 50 or a 100, but sometimes impact innings matter. Not all games are won in T20 anyway. The test series was bad, but was not a washout.

 

I am sorry, I always rate a 50 WC win and a Test win in SENA countries over a T20 WC win. So even if Pak win the T20 WC, it is not bigger than a series win in a SENA country for a SC team.

[Khota]

Pant. He is more clutch than Rizwan.

 

Moreover he is from Delhi.

[sandeep]

11 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

I am talking about long term. This one innings doesn't guarantee a place for a very long run.  With 5 bowlers who can't bat his reliability is very vital. Scoring a fancy 30 and getting out doesn't help one bit.  He did the same in the semi final. A needless slog. Then test championship fiinal. Even against Pakistan he played a low percentage slog. 

 

"fancy 30".   ok.  Would you be saying the same thing if he had scored 60 odd and taken us to 170, which likely would have won us the game?  No.  That means you are judging a player by outcome, not by his method or skill or capacity potential.  T20 batting is all about risk-reward, and different players have different approaches to that equation.  Some will feel that Virat's method is too risk-averse, and costs India more games than it wins for the team.  Mind you, there's some serious cricket analytics folks that make this claim.  

 

Ultimately this is all subjective and we are all entitled to feel our opinion is the correct one.  

 

Quote

Kishan is his competitor. KL Rahul can keep as well. His batting has to be as good as you expect from a specialist bat.

 

This I can agree with.  Pant has no ordained right to his spot, and guys like Kishan are rightly his competitors.  If he slips up and competitors outperform him, then they replace him.  

 

But considering OP's question, personally my opinion is that Rizwan is having his moment in the sun right now, but is not in Pant's category. 

[sandeep]

6 minutes ago, Try_Ball said:

 Isn't Kishan a better bat than Pant while both pretty much equal in keeping ?

Past performances don't bear this out.  Pant has shown effectiveness in T20s in the middle order, Ishan has failed to do so, and only done well at the top of the order.  Pant's T20 and First-class body of work is much better than Ishan.  Which is why Pant made it to the national team ahead of him.  

[Try_Ball]

1 minute ago, Adi_91 said:

 

I am sorry, if we talk about what ifs from the past, then I can also talk about Bumrah's no ball that dismissed Fakhar Zaman in 2017 CT final and downplay Pak's victory then. That is not correct.

 

You are talking as if Pant is woefully out of form. Please, he scored runs in the IPL, warm up games and in the first game. Yeah, may not have made a 50 or a 100, but sometimes impact innings matter. Not all games are won in T20 anyway. The test series was bad, but was not a washout.

 

I am sorry, I always rate a 50 WC win and a Test win in SENA countries over a T20 WC win. So even if Pak win the T20 WC, it is not bigger than a series win in a SENA country for a SC team.

It isn't about being woefully out of form .   I am talking about his batting style more than number of runs scored here.  

MSD played proper cricketing shots - no blind slogs ,   Rizwan is opening and playing the strike bowlers with proper cricketing shots - He's got his limitations as well but his shots don't look like bling slogs , Pant's shots look like slogs 90% of the time , either its the very awkward scoop or half way running down the pitch pre meditated.  When I see Pant - It reminds me of Afridi -  It should remind me of MSD but I see more Afridi than MSD but when I see Rizwan - I feel like I'm seeing a proper bat.

 

Tests are better than T20 ofcourse but isn't there why we have specialist players for specific formats now?   Pujara and Rahane are test batsman but they aren't necessarily better than Sharma as a batsman  - Red ball players vs White ball players - Different skill sets.  This isn't about which team wins what and what's bigger - Based on the T20 format at present -  I definitely see a higher skillset on display from Rizwan than Pant and when you see Kishan in the mix - I don't see what Pant is offering more than Kishan atleast in T20 for now.