The Indian Pace Bowling Pool need more Bounce Bowlers ... We suffered in South Africa 2022 because we could not use bounce as a weapon against ther top 6 batters

[raki05]

On 1/15/2024 at 2:56 PM, Mesky99 said:

Don't think he was that tall, skiddy quick bowler, started off quite well in t20s, got hammered in aus/NZ drop in pitches, then injured and lost zip, I would blame the management for his downfall, mismanaged with his injuries, khaleel Ahmed had a lot of potential.

This team management give enough chance to trundlers and being more sympathetic when they are thrashed and out . TM always keep them on radar and will be picked Suddenly for some series. Avesh and Arshdeep has been thrashed so badly in past went out of the team and came back again , mukesh getting regular thrashing since his debut in t20 but playing series after series. Unman who picked 11 wkts in 8 t20 has been thrown out and there is no plan and monitoring in place. There is non update on him since past 164 days, he is not even part of A teams , even in A team these selectors are picking some random trundlers and over the hill bowlers. In Indian history how many bowler clicked 157, Gavashkar to Kapil , Steyn and Lee everyone going gaga about him few months back now no one is bothered  to check why he is not even in A series. I remember when everyone was asking for his selection after scintillating ipl, how our esteemed coach said speed is not everything. This TM yo selectors have decided to play safe and have mediocre trundlers coz as per them if you are trundler you are accurate.

[tapandrun]

2 hours ago, raki05 said:

This team management give enough chance to trundlers and being more sympathetic when they are thrashed and out . TM always keep them on radar and will be picked Suddenly for some series. Avesh and Arshdeep has been thrashed so badly in past went out of the team and came back again , mukesh getting regular thrashing since his debut in t20 but playing series after series. Unman who picked 11 wkts in 8 t20 has been thrown out and there is no plan and monitoring in place. There is non update on him since past 164 days, he is not even part of A teams , even in A team these selectors are picking some random trundlers and over the hill bowlers. In Indian history how many bowler clicked 157, Gavashkar to Kapil , Steyn and Lee everyone going gaga about him few months back now no one is bothered  to check why he is not even in A series. I remember when everyone was asking for his selection after scintillating ipl, how our esteemed coach said speed is not everything. This TM yo selectors have decided to play safe and have mediocre trundlers coz as per them if you are trundler you are accurate.

Umran with his pace should have won Ind atleast 1/2 matches, he is also to blame here he has been going for more than 10 Rpo.

 

Yes this TM is staying away from any genuine quick, they seems to be more comfortable with sub 140 kmph bowlers which gives them false sense of control and they have thinking that a sub 140 kmph bowlers gives the fielder a chance to chase down the ball. Do not think this TM likes pace

 

But why selectors have fully neglected the 140+ kmph bowlers in side games/A tours and even U-23 Asia cup and Asian games?  This is short-sightedness.

They have been picking Saini in A tours which makes no sense.

 

 

[express bowling]

Bump

 

We need some tall, bouncy pacers in SENA.

 

A pool of medium height pacers, bowling 135 k without extra bounce, won't cut it as a bowling group. There is too much sameness and reliance on movement. 

 

Harshit needs to play more and more so that he becomes a finished product. 

 

Front-runners in late 2024  ... 

 

Harshit

Mayank

Arshdeep

Prasidh 

 

 

We also have unfit / not that good ones like 

 

Sen

Avesh

Tyagi

Dayal

Unadkat 

Khaleel

 

 

Edited December 16, 2024 by express bowling

[Need4Speed]

The way we wasted new ball first day first session in Gabba..it was very frustrating..

neither we were getting bounce..nor we had the pace..just gentle 130ks..

are we joking...playing at Gabba..and bowling like this..only couple play and misses from their openers..

 

I wont blame Bumrah..the poor guy is bearing the workload of all bowling..in all these etst matches..he has to preserve and stay injury free..he cant go all out..esp after having some injury scare in last match..but what about others..

 

BCCI needs to be kicked in the butt a thouand times..not foresee and have a vision..

 

we will either need tall bowlers with min 135kph

or we need pacemens at high 140s to make a difference here..

 

fookers are not grooming any..we just dont need 1 or 2..we need a pool.

[lemsip]

18 minutes ago, Need4Speed said:

 

we will either need tall bowlers with min 135kph

or we need pacemens at high 140s to make a difference here..

Hazelwood was causing enough problems operating at 127-130K.  It's more about having the skill to exploit these conditions rather than obsessing about pace. Bounce bowlers etc without bowling intelligence will prove canon fodder on these surfaces.  Akashdeep and Bumrah  were both operating in the 135-140K range.  The difference was Bumrah knows how to take wickets and Akashdeep doesn't quite yet. 

[express bowling]

55 minutes ago, Need4Speed said:

 

we will either need tall bowlers with min 135kph

or we need pacemens at high 140s to make a difference here..

 

fookers are not grooming any..we just dont need 1 or 2..we need a pool.

 

 

Exactly  !

[Need4Speed]

49 minutes ago, lemsip said:

Hazelwood was causing enough problems operating at 127-130K.  It's more about having the skill to exploit these conditions rather than obsessing about pace. Bounce bowlers etc without bowling intelligence will prove canon fodder on these surfaces.  Akashdeep and Bumrah  were both operating in the 135-140K range.  The difference was Bumrah knows how to take wickets and Akashdeep doesn't quite yet. 

Why it is always assumed we are talking about inaccurate and dimwit bowlers..

if you are grooming a pool pf such bowlers..all wont be accurate and skillful..but if you will be able to take 20-25% of them to next level..from pool..will be great..

dont forget how much height Hazelwood has..along with the accuracy..

Alashdeep with Arshdeep’s height could have caused more trouble at his pace..

 

imo if we arevsupporting 125k-130k bowlers with avg height..they will have to be very skillful..

 

but if we have 135k-140k tall bowlers..they can just be skillful and can extract more variation from pitch..without being very skillful

[express bowling]

1 hour ago, lemsip said:

Hazelwood was causing enough problems operating at 127-130K.  It's more about having the skill to exploit these conditions rather than obsessing about pace.

 

Hazlewood is 6'5", has a very high release point, hits the deck hard and gets steep bounce. Plus he has pinpoint accuracy. He can succeed at 130 k.

 

And he bowls upto 140 k averaging around 133 k these days. Kohli's dismissal in Perth was with a 139.9 k steeply bouncing snorter. 

 

 

1 hour ago, lemsip said:

Bounce bowlers etc without bowling intelligence will prove canon fodder on these surfaces. 

 

I don't know why this point is raised rather regularly. Only 3 or 4 pacers are chosen to represent their countries at any point in time. And it is expected that anyone who reaches this level will have sufficient skills and bowling intelligence. 

 

If this is not happening then there is something wrong with the pacer selection system. 

 

We want bounce bowlers with bowling intelligence and sufficient skills.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, lemsip said:

Akashdeep and Bumrah  were both operating in the 135-140K range.  The difference was Bumrah knows how to take wickets and Akashdeep doesn't quite yet. 

 

Bumrah has been able to reach top speeds of mid 140s at every point of his career and 150 k in his quickest years.  Batsmen are always wary of the quicker ball and reluctant to come decisively forward even if he is operating around 137 k in any particular innings and topping out at 142 k. 

 

Moreover, he has a very high arm action and wrist whip and hits the bat high and hard even at 135 k. 

 

Plus he releases the ball well past the bowling crease compared to most normal pacers ... thus shortening the distance the ball has to travel. Hence he feels quicker to the batsmen compared to other pacers of similar release speeds. 

 

Akashdeep does not have any of these qualities.

Edited December 16, 2024 by express bowling

[express bowling]

Great bowling nations like the WI of 1976 to 1995, Australia of 1994 onwards and SA of 1992 to 2018 have always had a high percentage of tall, bounce bowlers ( highly skilful too ).

 

Some of the reasons are ....

 

1)  Even if the ball is not moving much, the batters will be troubled by bounce. These pacers will not be dependant only on movement or pace. They can pick wickets with bounce too. 

 

 

2)  Batsmen are reluctant to come forward freely if the bowler is getting bounce. They dont want to get hit on the knuckles, ribs or abs. 

 

This makes the bowler more potent with his fuller balls too as the batsman is often not decisively forward.

 

 

3)  If the ball is bouncing extra then it does not hit the sweet spot of the bat. It hits the splice and hence goes for less runs and fetches more wickets. 

 

 

4)  A very high release point troubles batters more than low release points. 

 

 

5)  Every pacer loses some pace with age. But tall, bouncy pacers still have bounce to hurry batters. 

 

It is because of this reason that Older pacers, who have done well past the age of 34, have usually been tall and bouncy like Walsh, Ambrose, McGrath, Anderson etc. There have been exceptions like Hadlee too but he was incredibly skilful. 

Edited December 16, 2024 by express bowling

[Need4Speed]

1 hour ago, express bowling said:

 

 

 

5)  Every pacer loses some pace with age. But tall, bouncy pacers still have bounce to hurry batters. 

 

It is because of this reason that Older pacers, who have done well past the age of 34, have usually been tall and bouncy like Walsh, Ambrose, McGrath, Anderson etc. There have been exceptions like Hadlee too but he was incredibly skilful. 

Agreed..See even at this stage Ishant Sharma is difficult for our domestic batters to handle..

[tapandrun]

Again the problem is not created just now, Ind tm and selectors have been neglecting proper faster bowlers. The Fast bowing group is reduced to Bhurmah and declining Siraj.

Ind kept on losing pacer without any potent faster bowler to the group. They re-cycled Unadkat, Kept Thakur in the loop, Avesh still in the white-ball, Mukesh Kumar in all formats.

recalling Khaleel on what performance ...???

 

None of the above mentioned bowler had any potential to be regular in Test and none of them even graduated to be regular full strength Ind side. 

There was/is no point in investing these bowlers who can not graduate to be in full strength white ball side, let alone being proper test bowler.

Previous selection choices should be reflected back and there has to be some retrospective on this.

 

Edited December 17, 2024 by tapandrun

[Ultimate_Game]

Two things to help out with bowling:

 

1. Give chances to domestic performers. Someone like Harshit didn't even get one single game and went to Aus with zero experience when selectors could've played him earlier. They did it so that his IPL base price didn't get high and he could be retained. Other bowlers with potential like Kuldip Sen are nowhere to be seen while we keep on seeing low ceiling bowlers like Avesh Khan being selected continuously despite not performing.

 

2. Better support from batters. No bowling attack will be able to do much if your batters can't even last 50 overs in their 1st innings. Indian bowlers rescued them once in the Perth Test but to expect them to do the same every time is not gonna happen. You need to bat and score runs to give bowlers some breathing room, provide some scoreboard pressure, and also to give bowlers some rest. Right now our batting innings is like a ODI innings and bowlers are back bowling within 2 sessions! And to make it worst bowlers are targeted for lack of performances from batters. Look at poor Harshit. He was dropped though the problem is batting. Likes of Kohli and Rohli get a free ticket while bowlers, especially youngsters and newbies are thrown under the bus.

[express bowling]

7 hours ago, tapandrun said:

Again the problem is not created just now, Ind tm and selectors have been neglecting proper faster bowlers. The Fast bowing group is reduced to Bhurmah and declining Siraj.

Ind kept on losing pacer without any potent faster bowler to the group. They re-cycled Unadkat, Kept Thakur in the loop, Avesh still in the white-ball, Mukesh Kumar in all formats.

recalling Khaleel on what performance ...???

 

None of the above mentioned bowler had any potential to be regular in Test and none of them even graduated to be regular full strength Ind side. 

There was/is no point in investing these bowlers who can not graduate to be in full strength white ball side, let alone being proper test bowler.

Previous selection choices should be reflected back and there has to be some retrospective on this.

 

 

Unpopular opinion, but among all the medium pacers chosen from early 2023 to mid 2024,  I felt that Unadkat had the most potential as a 4th pacer in SENA tests.  

 

Tall, can extract bounce, can move the ball, accurate, left armer, FC veteran and can bat a bit.

 

He could have replaced Thakur and added bounce and some batting ability. 

[tapandrun]

There is no bounce bowler in Ind cricketing system, those who are tall are not fast enough. And do not event know how to use bounce and height.

 

There are bowler who are bowling sub 130 kmph in Smat, a bowler who is bowling sub 130 kmph in t20 is not going to bowl 130+ kmph in Odis and tests.

There is a need to weed out such sub 135 kmph bowlers. The only good thing about this Smat season was that teams are playing multiutility players.

 

V.sure no one can list-out 5/6 6.3+ tall fast bowlers playing in domestic circuit.This Smat season do nt think any1 would have bowled even 5/6 ball at 145 kmph.

The issue is those who are fast are not tall and those who are tall are not fast. And then the negligence of  Ind tm and selectors towards proper fast bowler has trickle-down effect at domestic level too.

Ind is getting back to same pre kolhi-sastri era of fast bowling where none of fast bowler was capable of taking 5fer. 

Ind selected Aqib, Salam and Kamboj for emerging Asia cup, who amongst these is intnl quality or is tall and fast. No thought has been put into selecting the team and bowlers. Bd has better system of selecting and promoting faster bowlers be it at U19 level or Emerging level. 

 

 

 

Edited December 17, 2024 by tapandrun

[tapandrun]

5 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

Unpopular opinion, but among all the medium pacers chosen from early 2023 to mid 2024,  I felt that Unadkat had the most potential as a 4th pacer in SENA tests.  

 

Tall, can extract bounce, can move the ball, accurate, left armer, FC veteran and can bat a bit.

 

He could have replaced Thakur and added bounce and some batting ability. 

Unadkat is seasoned player, he does not have to be on bench if he is picked he should play in 11 and should be ready to deliver right away.

if he is still a #3/4 bowler then better groom some1 else give then 1/2 years. If these kind of players are selected for a specific series or tour then there should be no doubt of their place in playing 11,and still they can not make it to playing 11 and have to sit on the bench then what is the point.

 

 

[express bowling]

11 minutes ago, tapandrun said:

There is no bounce bowler in Ind cricketing system, those who are tall are not fast enough. And do not event know how to use bounce and height.

 

There are bowler who are bowling sub 130 kmph in Smat, a bowler who is bowling sub 130 kmph in t20 is not going to bowl 130+ kmph in Odis and tests.

There is a need to weed out such sub 135 kmph bowlers. The only good thing about this Smat season was that teams are playing multiutility players.

 

V.sure no one can list-out 5/6 6.3+ tall fast bowlers playing in domestic circuit.This Smat season do nt think any1 would have bowled even 5/6 ball at 145 kmph.

The issue is those who are fast are not tall and those who are tall are not fast. And then the negligence of  Ind tm and selectors towards proper fast bowler has trickle-down effect at domestic level too.

Ind is getting back to same pre kolhi-sastri era of fast bowling where none of fast bowler was capable of taking 5fer. 

Ind selected Aqib, Salam and Kamboj for emerging Asia cup, who amongst these is intnl quality or is tall and fast. No thought has been put into selecting the team and bowlers. Bd has better system of selecting and promoting faster bowlers be it at U19 level or Emerging level. 

 

 

We have many pacers who are 6'3" or 6'2" and can extract good bounce at 140 k+.   Like Prasidh, Harshit, Sen, Tyagi.

 

Then there is 6'1" Mayank who is 150 k+ with a high arm action. He gets steep bounce too. 

 

Gurnoor Brar is 6'5" , bouncy and 137 k+. 

 

Arshdeep is 6'3" and can bowl 135 k+. Hits the bat high and has a good bumper. 

 

6'3" Unadkat and 6'2" Avesh get bounce at 130 k+.

 

Mohsin gets bounce from 6'4" height at 135 k+.

[express bowling]

10 minutes ago, tapandrun said:

Unadkat is seasoned player, he does not have to be on bench if he is picked he should play in 11 and should be ready to deliver right away.

if he is still a #3/4 bowler then better groom some1 else give then 1/2 years. If these kind of players are selected for a specific series or tour then there should be no doubt of their place in playing 11,and still they can not make it to playing 11 and have to sit on the bench then what is the point.

 

 

Point is adding bounce to the attack and a better 4th pacer than Reddy ( who should play as a pure batter )

 

4 medium height pacers bowling together is a big no no for me in SENA. And only one of them, Bumrah, is 140 k+. 

 

Ishant provided height during 2015 to 2020 and this helped a lot. 

[tapandrun]

3 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

We have many pacers who are 6'3" or 6'2" and can extract good bounce at 140 k+.   Like Prasidh, Harshit, Sen, Tyagi.

 

Then there is 6'1" Mayank who is 150 k+ with a high arm action. He gets steep bounce too. 

 

Gurnoor Brar is 6'5" , bouncy and 137 k+. 

 

Arshdeep is 6'3" and can bowl 135 k+. Hits the bat high and has a good bumper. 

 

6'3" Unadkat and 6'2" Avesh get bounce at 130 k+.

 

Mohsin gets bounce from 6'4" height at 135 k+.

Prasidh, Harshit, Sen, Tyagi-- Hardly played any cricket in last 1-2 yrs

Gurnoor Brar-- Dropped in Smat after 1st few games

Arshdeep--Do not think he is 135+ kmph bowler in test , let him play t20 

Unadkat may be playing last season , nt sure but think his come back could be due to some admin position in bcci down the line

Avesh --nt sure he intnl quality, unable to graduate to full strength ind white ball team.

Mohsin -- Hardly touched 135 kmph this season per smat speedometer and bcci highlights

[express bowling]

35 minutes ago, tapandrun said:

Prasidh, Harshit, Sen, Tyagi-- Hardly played any cricket in last 1-2 yrs

Gurnoor Brar-- Dropped in Smat after 1st few games

Arshdeep--Do not think he is 135+ kmph bowler in test , let him play t20 

Unadkat may be playing last season , nt sure but think his come back could be due to some admin position in bcci down the line

Avesh --nt sure he intnl quality, unable to graduate to full strength ind white ball team.

Mohsin -- Hardly touched 135 kmph this season per smat speedometer and bcci highlights

 

 

My point is that we get lots of 6'2" and 6'3" guys bowling 140 k+ or 135 k+ with good enough bounce. 

 

We should try to develop some of them for tests instead of wanting an attack of 5'8" to 6'0" only. 

Edited December 17, 2024 by express bowling

[tapandrun]

2 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

 

My point is that we get lots of 6'2" and 6'3" guys bowling 140 k+ or 135 k+ with good enough bounce. 

 

We should try to develop some of them for tests instead of wanting an attack of 5'9" to 6'0" only. 

The issue is the supply system, if there are not many tall fast bowlers in domestic system then you would not get many top quality tall fast bowler.

All you are going to get with such system are bowlers who are not good for intnl cricket. 

If faster bowler are not getting into Smat teams then there is no chance of them getting into Ranji teams.

 

System is not promoting and developing faster bowlers. And this is due to what Ind team is selecting and due to trickle-down effect IPL teams are also looking ~140ish kmph bowlers with some ability to bowl yorkers.

 

All IPL/Domestic teams want to win but they also know that there can be only 1 champion team so to get sponsors and media they try to get kind of player Ind team is looking for, hoping their player is selected which brings media and sponsors.

 

If Ind starts selecting faster bowlers then IPL/Domestic teams will start emulating the same thing, they will invest in similar player.