Will American hegemony ever end ?

[Muloghonto]

3 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:

If it is only about making money , it might be gulf, but most IT and academics folks eventually want to end up in US. You can’t freely celebrate festivals, have to eat privately during Ramadin, women have to dress decently. I had a friend who was in Bahrain for 3 months ended up putting on 20 kgs. The reason being that the only entertainment was eating Chicken. There were no movie halls either then. Now, it must be different. But still, the west gets you quality money as well as a life that you would have lead in India. I’d never want to live in UAE or Saudi. 

 

Most IT folks wanna end up where IT is a big deal. Which is not the middle east. You do end up getting fat in the middle east, that is true- combination of really good & cheap food + outside is a furnace and no one walks to anywhere, ever. 

If your priorities in life was to save money, send your kids to university (that you pay for) and retire comfortably in India, then ME is a far better option than anywhere in the west, because in ME you make about 2-3x the savings as you do in the west. 

I just lived in Dubai for six months last year, i would easily live in Dubai over any american or western city in a heartbeat, its far, far better and i have been to many western cities in my life 

 

[rangeelaraja]

14 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

 

Yes, the highly skilled ones outside chemical, electrical, civil engineering & medicine target the west. Those highly skilled ones target the middle east for far better paying jobs and lifestyle. 

70-30/80-20 is supposed to be the normal split between blue and white collar jobs.

 

 

 

Again that might be your anecdotal experience and not fact based.  I have close family relatives  in both Middle East and North America.

 

Last 20 25 years when middle east with its oil money driven construction boom....there was huge demand for civil engineers,  architects ...etc ..and Indians made a beeline 

But that apart Gulf can never be the preferred option if West is an alternative ...for reasons mentioned so well articulated in that article ....higher quality of life,, well-developed healthcare and education systems,  clear path to residency and many many more career opportunities in a 50 times bigger economy.

 

[Muloghonto]

3 minutes ago, rangeelaraja said:

 

 

Again that might be your anecdotal experience and not fact based.  I have close family relatives  in both Middle East and North America.

 

Last 20 25 years when middle east with its oil money driven construction boom....there was huge demand for civil engineers,  architects ...etc ..and Indians made a beeline 

But that apart Gulf can never be the preferred option if West is an alternative ...for reasons mentioned so well articulated in that article ....higher quality of life,, well-developed healthcare and education systems,  clear path to residency and many many more career opportunities in a 50 times bigger economy.

 

 

1. That construction boom still exists

2. There isnt higher quality of life in the west than the gulf for the educated class. 

3.  The west is the preferred alternative for those who want to settle. Those who want to come back to India, even in their old age, gulf is still the number 1

4. Oil is still the king. Which means, Chem engineers prefer ME over anywhere else the same way tech bros like me salivate at silicon valley over anything else. 

 

[ravishingravi]

17 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

 

1. That construction boom still exists

2. There isnt higher quality of life in the west than the gulf for the educated class. 

3.  The west is the preferred alternative for those who want to settle. Those who want to come back to India, even in their old age, gulf is still the number 1

4. Oil is still the king. Which means, Chem engineers prefer ME over anywhere else the same way tech bros like me salivate at silicon valley over anything else. 

 

 

I have to agree with that esp for Europe. For US I think there is still considérable delta. 

[Muloghonto]

Just now, ravishingravi said:

 

I have to agree with that esp for Europe. For US I think there is still considérable delta. 

in my six months in dubai last year, i came across at least 20 desis- mostly doctors- who got their degrees from the states and came to dubai. When asked why, they all said the same thing - higher quality of life, much higher net savings & much closer to India. 

All of which, i agree with. As i said before, i will happily go live long term in Dubai than in ANY north american city - its simply better in almost every single way.

 

[ravishingravi]

12 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

in my six months in dubai last year, i came across at least 20 desis- mostly doctors- who got their degrees from the states and came to dubai. When asked why, they all said the same thing - higher quality of life, much higher net savings & much closer to India. 

All of which, i agree with. As i said before, i will happily go live long term in Dubai than in ANY north american city - its simply better in almost every single way.

 

 

Dubai is just India now with better infra and higher pay. But this delta won't exist forever. Dubai certainly has to overcome some economic mines it has dug in. 

[Muloghonto]

23 minutes ago, ravishingravi said:

 

Dubai is just India now with better infra and higher pay. But this delta won't exist forever. Dubai certainly has to overcome some economic mines it has dug in. 

Whatever mine Dubai dug, its not gonna be a big deal. 

Because UAE works like an old school joint bong family.

'Borda'  is Abu Dhabi. its the richest emirate, who effectively runs the country and sets the big-ticket agendas mostly but is quieter than Mezda.

'Mezda' is Dubai - thinks its borda, gives a lot of 'batella' to the younger siblings but actually is 'bheegi billi' in front of Borda

'Shezda' is Sharjah - its basically the 'cheap labour and cheap goods import point for mezda' but is under no illusions about who butters the toast. 

Rest are all ' kochi khokhas' that live under the 'chaaya' of Borda-Mezda.

Dubai's high risk-high reward strategy has mostly worked, because in the things they bombed at (such as Burj Khalifa for eg), they go begging to Borda and borda goes 'uff fine, tui atto natok korish kano ? ei ne, niye ja!'. 

 

[ravishingravi]

Very interesting perspective from Balaji

 

https://x.com/balajis/status/1711111823787970822?s=20

[ravishingravi]

Why America will remain dominant ?

 

[rangeelaraja]

On 10/6/2023 at 3:13 PM, Muloghonto said:

 

Most IT folks wanna end up where IT is a big deal. Which is not the middle east. You do end up getting fat in the middle east, that is true- combination of really good & cheap food + outside is a furnace and no one walks to anywhere, ever. 

If your priorities in life was to save money, send your kids to university (that you pay for) and retire comfortably in India, then ME is a far better option than anywhere in the west, because in ME you make about 2-3x the savings as you do in the west. 

I just lived in Dubai for six months last year, i would easily live in Dubai over any american or western city in a heartbeat, its far, far better and i have been to many western cities in my life 

 

 

 

My friend that is gross generalization.

 

I work on Wall street, have my social circle in Wall street and Big tech.  The numbers we make here are truly outworldly compared to the rest of the world.

 

Do you know an average mid level software engineer at one of the FAANG companies ( and there are tens of thousands of desis at these firms ) makes well over 

$300,000 including base + RSU + performance bonus.  Plus insane incentives.

 

Folks in my  circle, every 2-3 years, with the accumulated  RSU stocks & bonus, buy a new investment property - paid in full and rent it out.  

 

I would strongly recommend you going through the below database that has over a million entries and has live updates. 

 

https://www.levels.fyi/?compare=Google,Microsoft,Amazon&track=Software Engineering Manager

 

Might clear some of your notions about what a " great"  place ME may be to save money relatively

Edited October 8, 2023 by rangeelaraja

[Muloghonto]

5 minutes ago, rangeelaraja said:

 

 

My friend that is gross generalization.

 

I work on Wall street, have my social circle in Wall street and Big tech.  The numbers we make here are truly outworldly compared to the rest of the world.

 

Do you know an average mid level software engineer at one of the FAANG companies ( and there are tens of thousands of desis at these firms ) makes well over 

$300,000 including base + RSU + performance bonus.  Plus insane incentives.

 

Folks in my  circle, every 2-3 years, with the accumulated  RSU stocks & bonus, buy a new investment property - paid in full and rent it out.  

 

 

 

 

Wall street & big tech are COMPLETELY irrelevant to engineering and medicine. I am in big tech myself, my family are all doctors, engineers and accountants. I have ALREADY said that my type of techhies prefer USA because theres 1000x more jobs in our sector there but if you find me a doctor or a chem/civil/electrical engineer who says they prefer to work in the US than in the Gulf, i will tell you, with 1000% certainty, that they are either liars or retards. 

because any doctor/engineer or even mid level software guy will have 2x-3x the savings in the gulf than in the states. I have been in Kaneda-amrikka for 25 years,i spent my childhood growing up in the middle east ( or atleast a significant portion of it) and i just went back there for months last year.

 

The ONLY thing that USA is a better place for, than the ME, is big tech,mechanical engineering & finance ( unless you are in dubai but even then Dubai cant contend with the scale of finance sector in USA). 

Rest all - ME is a far better option in every which way: more money, better lifestyle, cleaner & most importantly, 10000% safer than any yankee city. The last is big enough a deal for ME to take a 40% paycut and live in Canada than move to the shitstain that is USA and accept the retarded hillbilly way of life in murrica.

 

 

 

[rangeelaraja]

12 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

 

Wall street & big tech are COMPLETELY irrelevant to engineering and medicine. I am in big tech myself, my family are all doctors, engineers and accountants. I have ALREADY said that my type of techhies prefer USA because theres 1000x more jobs in our sector there but if you find me a doctor or a chem/civil/electrical engineer who says they prefer to work in the US than in the Gulf, i will tell you, with 1000% certainty, that they are either liars or retards. 

because any doctor/engineer or even mid level software guy will have 2x-3x the savings in the gulf than in the states. I have been in Kaneda-amrikka for 25 years,i spent my childhood growing up in the middle east ( or atleast a significant portion of it) and i just went back there for months last year.

 

The ONLY thing that USA is a better place for, than the ME, is big tech,mechanical engineering & finance ( unless you are in dubai but even then Dubai cant contend with the scale of finance sector in USA). 

Rest all - ME is a far better option in every which way: more money, better lifestyle, cleaner & most importantly, 10000% safer than any yankee city. The last is big enough a deal for ME to take a 40% paycut and live in Canada than move to the shitstain that is USA and accept the retarded hillbilly way of life in murrica.

 

 

 

 

How is big tech “ completely irrelevant “ to engineering - big tech is all about engineering - software ( and it’s many specializations like AI/ML, DevOps etc…  ), hardware and networking  for firms like apple, Cisco, dell etc.. etc. 

 

looks like your mind is set civil and electric engineering in the ME as being the be all and end all of engineering . 
 

There are tons of desis who have bachelors in electrical from India and who switch to software engineering for post grad to avail opportunities here. 
 

mind throwing in some salary  numbers in the Middle East since you seem to know it very well ? 
 

Also oil rich  Middle East collectively is such a tiny economy  - collectively smaller than many single states in the us. 

Edited October 8, 2023 by rangeelaraja

[rangeelaraja]

And don’t compare Canada and us salaries. Salaries in Canada are significantly lower for my teams working out of Toronto office. 

They earn a little less in CAD than their counterparts in us earn in USD for the exact same role. 

[Muloghonto]

1 minute ago, rangeelaraja said:

 

How is big tech “ completely irrelevant “ rk engineering - big tech is all about engineering - software ( and it’s many specializations like AI/ML, DevOps etc…  ), hardware for firms like apple, Cisco, dell etc.. etc. 

 

looks like your mind is set civil and electric engineering in the ME as being the be all and end all of engineering . 
 

There are tons of desis who have bachelors in electrical from India and who switch to software engineering for post grad to avail opportunities here. 
 

mind throwing in some salary  numbers in the Middle East since you seem to know it very well ? 
 

Also oil rich  Middle East collectively is such a tiny economy  - collectively smaller than many single states in the us. 

 

Because big tech is just a small spinoff angle to engineering, being essentially the application of electronics engineering. 

 

My mind is set on the simple fact that outside of electronics related stuff & mechanical engineering stuff, middle east is the ultimate destination. Only a fool would wanna work in a shittier pay, shittier work hours, shittier vacation, shittier everything US chemical engineering job, when ME is better. 

Salary for ME for chem engineers ? around 15-20K USD per month. No taxes. Subsidised housing & oil, to the point where you spend less than 3K a month on food+rent+fuel+utilities. And this is 'bread and butter jobs' for chem engineers- ones with 4-5 years exp in a very run of the mill oil/fertiliser/cement company.

The top end ones are easily double or triple that. 

 

In the middle east, what is in significant numbers ( and actually larger overall employment than in USA) is chemical engineering. They also punch significantly above their weight in electrical & civil engineering in terms of job opportunity proportionate to their population/economy. 

 

FYI, i am a electronic engineering student turned into math grad turned into software/data management pathway dude myself. 

 

And as i said, ME has several intangiables that are far better than the US- mostly to do with safety. But then again, i would rather make 70K living in Canada, if i had to, than make tripe than in the US due to how unsafe the US is to live in. 

 

 

[Muloghonto]

5 minutes ago, rangeelaraja said:

And don’t compare Canada and us salaries. Salaries in Canada are significantly lower for my teams working out of Toronto office. 

They earn a little less in CAD than their counterparts in us earn in USD for the exact same role. 

 

I know that. I would still take Canadian salary in Canada than US salary in USA. i aint living in that shithole, sorry to say. I might as well try to live in Ramallah if i wanted to live in retard land of violence & crime - at least iraq has more culture than murrica. 

 

[rangeelaraja]

14 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

 

 

Salary for ME for chem engineers ? around 15-20K USD per month. No taxes. Subsidised housing & oil, to the point where you spend less than 3K a month on food+rent+fuel+utilities. And this is 'bread and butter jobs' for chem engineers- ones with 4-5 years exp in a very run of the mill oil/fertiliser/cement company.

The top end ones are easily double or triple that. 

 

 

 

 

 

Mind sharing some job postings in the middle east to back the salary numbers  you are claiming ? 

 

I promise i can share 10X the postings here with far higher salary here,  than you are able to show in any available job postings for your chosen stream of engineering in the middle east.

 

I like to talk in terms of verifiable facts and figures, not  anecdotal opinions.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 8, 2023 by rangeelaraja

[Muloghonto]

3 minutes ago, rangeelaraja said:

 

 

Mind sharing some job postings in the middle east to back the salary numbers  you are claiming ? 

 

I promise i can share 10X the postings here with far higher salary here,  than you are able to show in any available job postings for your chosen stream of engineering in the middle east.

 

I like to talk in terms of verifiable facts and figures, not  anecdotal opinions.

 

 

 

 

 

No. Forget 10x, there isnt even 10% the number of jobs in USA where your run-of-the-mill 26-27 year old chem engineering BASc/BEng. are making 15K USD before taxes per month, nevermind after taxes. Or Civil engineers for that matter. 

 

My father made 40K USD per month in the 1990s in middle east for his chem engineering job. Forget in the 90s, even TODAY his counterparts in Texas/Alberta dont even make HALF that per month BEFORE taxes. 

And in ME its the convention to NOT post salary in job postings, its something you negotiate/talk about during interview process. If you don't believe me, do the job search yourself. 

 

You have not provided any verifiable facts and figures either - presenting anecdotes and poorly researched news articles does not make it fact and figures.

USA does not have anywhere close to the same paygrade of jobs as the gulf for things that are high demand in the gulf. Not even close. 

[rangeelaraja]

14 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

 

No. Forget 10x, there isnt even 10% the number of jobs in USA where your run-of-the-mill 26-27 year old chem engineering BASc/BEng. are making 15K USD before taxes per month, nevermind after taxes. Or Civil engineers for that matter. 

 

 

 

And salary range is not posted in Middle job postings, everything is " negotiated ".  Very interesting.

 

I have shared a database of over 1 million verified records, and there are many thousands postings on linkedin - all you have done is shared your opinion and expecting others to believe it is gospel truth.  

 

Anyway good for you if Middle east is your "mecca" for a building savings and a good life. 

 

The best and brightest of India still making a beeline for us must be all idiots.

 

Edited October 8, 2023 by rangeelaraja

[Muloghonto]

Just now, rangeelaraja said:

 

 

And salary range is not posted in Middle job postings, everything is " negotiated ".  Very interesting.

 

I have shared a database of over 1 million verified records, and there are many thousands postings on linkedin - all you have done is shared your opinion and expecting others to believe it is gospel truth.  

 

Anyway good for you if Middle east is your "mecca" for a building savings and a good life. 

 

The best and brightest of India  making a beeline for us must be all idiots.

 

 

You have shared a news article. Thats hardly conclusive.
The best and the brightest Indian graduates in chemical/civil & electrical engineering & medicine do not beeline for the US- they beeline for the ME. 

Because only a retard would take the 'far shittier at everything' US job than the ME job. 

 

Indians suffer from a US-fandom mania that is product of the US media image, but this bubble is quickly burst for anyone with a brain inside of 3 years flat. 

Its a **** country to live in long term, its a **** country to have savings. 

Its a 'mario' like though- as in 'doesnt suck too bad at anything, is sort of an allrounder'  & huge which is what makes it paper over its cracks.

But i left USA for Canada for a reason and i don't regret it one bit either.

 

[rangeelaraja]

3 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

 

You have shared a news article. Thats hardly conclusive.
The best and the brightest Indian graduates in chemical/civil & electrical engineering & medicine do not beeline for the US- they beeline for the ME. 

Because only a retard would take the 'far shittier at everything' US job than the ME job. 

 

Indians suffer from a US-fandom mania that is product of the US media image, but this bubble is quickly burst for anyone with a brain inside of 3 years flat. 

Its a **** country to live in long term, its a **** country to have savings. 

Its a 'mario' like though- as in 'doesnt suck too bad at anything, is sort of an allrounder'  & huge which is what makes it paper over its cracks.

But i left USA for Canada for a reason and i don't regret it one bit either.

 

 

I shared a database in my post ( see link )

 

Just because you had a bad experience, doesn't make a place bad. No place is perfect. And everybody's opinions are subject to our experiences. 

 

This country has given me ALOT so I have a very different opinion than you, have seen all sides of it - good , bad and ugly for 18 years.