'Why somebody else gets more games to fail and I get only one?': R Ashwin on making 'peace' with disappointments

[Vijy]

4 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

ok since you know of them, tell me which one of these bowlers has those attributes ? Given that these guys are all under 6'4 or so, i highly doubt they can get steep bounce. So which one of them have stinging pace (145kph+ as their stock ball) ? 

These 3 attributes are a **MUST** for a 3rd/4th pacer to be effective. If you notice 4 pacers playing, the 3rd/4th pacer ALL have one of these attributes - such as Garner & Walsh (3rd/4th bowlers in their team) had steep bounce. Akhtar had searing pace. Same story with the South African 4 prong attacks of the 90s & early 2000s - Hayward, Ntini were consistently in the 145kph range, etc. You can't 'groom them' to have these attributes, these are natural in bowlers.

 

of the current bunch, quoting my previous post, I like mayank yadav. he has sheer pace (might even be quicker than umran on average), has control, and seems to have the body frame to bowl some bumpers.

[Vijy]

1 minute ago, Muloghonto said:

 

No, he is not. Shami and Bumrah are really good with the ball being 40-50+ overs old. They are just quick enough to get reverse swing going. They are not that effective as 1st/2nd change bowler, aka bowling with the 20-40 overs old ball. Thakur was adequate stop-gap because he was tight, but your 3rd/4th pacer cannot be a 20-5-60-1 kind of bowler (that is what Thakur was)- if thats the deal, you are better off taking a spinner or two, especially if you have really good wristspinners like Kuldeep around- unless your 3rd/4th bowler are bowlers like Walsh/Garner/Ntini/Hazlewood/Akhtar etc, you have no chance of being an impactful 3rd/4th seamer. All these guys spend a good chunk of their careers being 1st/2nd change bowlers , meaning 3rd/4th seamers and all of them had either searing pace or trampoline bounce due to height. 

 

I suspect that outside SA and maybe NZ we will not need 4 pacer attack. 3 pacers are enough in most places: Eng serves flat pitches for Bazball, Aus pitches can help wristspin (+ Jaddu as AR).

 

If SA and NZ serve green tops, I would vote for playing 3+1

[Muloghonto]

Just now, Vijy said:

I suspect that outside SA and maybe NZ we will not need 4 pacer attack. 3 pacers are enough in most places: Eng serves flat pitches for Bazball, Aus pitches can help wristspin (+ Jaddu as AR).

 

If SA and NZ serve green tops, I would vote for playing 3+1

3+1 becomes 3+2 with Jaddu being an allrounder. Especially if Jurel develops to be a bonafide 6th batter- which he has the technique and temperament for. 

But yes, the day Jadeja retires, thats when we go 3+1 with Kuldeep being the plus one.

 

[Vijy]

14 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

3+1 becomes 3+2 with Jaddu being an allrounder. Especially if Jurel develops to be a bonafide 6th batter- which he has the technique and temperament for. 

But yes, the day Jadeja retires, thats when we go 3+1 with Kuldeep being the plus one.

 

on green tops, I would play 3 pacers and jaddu. no need for a 5th bowler IMO. remember that NZ and SA green tops barely last for 3 days, so no need to worry about bowling load. on such pitches, we should bolster batting instead.

 

all other places, I would play 3+2 (kuldeep, jadeja)

[Muloghonto]

2 minutes ago, Vijy said:

on green tops, I would play 3 pacers and jaddu. no need for a 5th bowler IMO. remember that NZ and SA green tops barely last for 3 days, so no need to worry about bowling load. on such pitches, we should bolster batting instead.

 

all other places, I would play 3+2 (kuldeep, jadeja)

Fair point, though i would rotate between kuldeep and ashwin as the 2nd spinner.  I would feel a lot more comfortable playing 4 bowlers only if we had a Tendu/Ganguly type dibbly dobbly bowler who can turn their arm over for 10-15 overs without getting hammered. 

4 bowlers is just too risky as even one bowler having an off day/being hammered leads to a huge stress load on the other 3 and unless we are talking of the 100 allout pitches of early 2000s new zealand, 3 bowlers sharing even 50 overs between them is a bit too much.

 

[Vijy]

1 minute ago, Muloghonto said:

Fair point, though i would rotate between kuldeep and ashwin as the 2nd spinner.  I would feel a lot more comfortable playing 4 bowlers only if we had a Tendu/Ganguly type dibbly dobbly bowler who can turn their arm over for 10-15 overs without getting hammered. 

4 bowlers is just too risky as even one bowler having an off day/being hammered leads to a huge stress load on the other 3 and unless we are talking of the 100 allout pitches of early 2000s new zealand, 3 bowlers sharing even 50 overs between them is a bit too much.

 

NZ pitches are precisely like the early 2000s ones only when we tour, and they give flat tracks otherwise. ditto for SA: they lay out some of the worst pitches. for these tracks, 4 bowlers are enough.

 

otherwise, I would go with akash deep + shami + bumrah + kuldeep + jadeja overseas. good batting lineup too, with jadeja at 6, jurel at 7, kuldeep at 8, akash deep at 9.

[Kron]

1 hour ago, Muloghonto said:

ok since you know of them, tell me which one of these bowlers has those attributes ? Given that these guys are all under 6'4 or so, i highly doubt they can get steep bounce. So which one of them have stinging pace (145kph+ as their stock ball) ? 

These 3 attributes are a **MUST** for a 3rd/4th pacer to be effective. If you notice 4 pacers playing, the 3rd/4th pacer ALL have one of these attributes - such as Garner & Walsh (3rd/4th bowlers in their team) had steep bounce. Akhtar had searing pace. Same story with the South African 4 prong attacks of the 90s & early 2000s - Hayward, Ntini were consistently in the 145kph range, etc. You can't 'groom them' to have these attributes, these are natural in bowlers.

 

Mayank is rapid. 138 to 146 easy. 

Rana is 135 to 145

Gets steep bounce

Both of them. 6'2 yes but still more than tall enough

You don't need express pace to do well.

 

You need consistent pace between 135 to 145 with food bounce. 

 

Sen himself is fast. He bowled 138 to 145 on indian speed guns. Really he is probably 4 kmhs quicker

 

Akashdeep was clocking 130 to 139 in ranji speed guns.

 

He clocked 138 to 145 in international speed guns.

 

There are 3 more

Any of them will do well.

Tyagi is rapid. He just needs to be injury free.

[Muloghonto]

42 minutes ago, Kron said:

Mayank is rapid. 138 to 146 easy. 

Rana is 135 to 145

Gets steep bounce

Both of them. 6'2 yes but still more than tall enough

You don't need express pace to do well.

 

You need consistent pace between 135 to 145 with food bounce. 

 

Sen himself is fast. He bowled 138 to 145 on indian speed guns. Really he is probably 4 kmhs quicker

 

Akashdeep was clocking 130 to 139 in ranji speed guns.

 

He clocked 138 to 145 in international speed guns.

 

There are 3 more

Any of them will do well.

Tyagi is rapid. He just needs to be injury free.

 

No. You need your stock ball to be 140 Kph or getting the ball to bounce to ribcage from full length to be a third/4th bowler, as the ball is old and wont move much and isnt old enough to reverse. As i said, look at the bowlers who've consistently been the 3rd/4th bowler to go to for teams that actually fielded a good 4 pace bowler attack- these guys that are easy recollections for me, are Garner (first 5 years of his career, coming in 3rd/4th behind openers of Holding & Roberts/Marshall), Walsh ( first 5-7 years of his career, coming in 3rd/4th to Garner & Marshall/Ambrose/Bishop v1), Akhtar ( Behind the two Ws for first 4 years), Ntini ( behind Pollock & Donald), etc. 

 

If there are guys who can bowl their stock ball at 140+kph (not their effort ball, but stock ball),then it will work. If they are below 6'4/6'5, they won't get the rib-cage high bounce from full length like Walsh or Garner used to get. We are talking of 3rd/4th bowler here, not opening bowler, ie, guys who are getting the ball at 15-20 over mark and have to bowl with a ball that does nothing, till the openers come back again around the 40 over mark, when the ball is old enough to reverse. 

 

130-135Kph is simply not good enough if you are not getting the Walsh/Garner like trampoline bounce.  This is what has worked for 3rd/4th pace bowler of a 4 prong attack in the last 40 years. Put Shami or Akash as 3rd/4th bowler and they will be lucky to post 20-5-70-2 kind of figures and average will shoot up to 35+. That is not good enough and at that point, the spinner becomes more viable.

This is the reason why even for SENA countries, fielding 4 prong pace attack is so rare on a consistent basis - its very rare to find a bowler who can bowl 140+kph or get trampoline bounce and have 3 or more of them at the same time. 

 

Bumrah will do fine as a 3rd bowler, but then again, why would you take your best bowler, an all time great potential guy, who averages 20 and change as opener and put him in a role that will see him struggle to average under 25 ? 

 

 

[Kron]

41 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

 

No. You need your stock ball to be 140 Kph or getting the ball to bounce to ribcage from full length to be a third/4th bowler, as the ball is old and wont move much and isnt old enough to reverse. As i said, look at the bowlers who've consistently been the 3rd/4th bowler to go to for teams that actually fielded a good 4 pace bowler attack- these guys that are easy recollections for me, are Garner (first 5 years of his career, coming in 3rd/4th behind openers of Holding & Roberts/Marshall), Walsh ( first 5-7 years of his career, coming in 3rd/4th to Garner & Marshall/Ambrose/Bishop v1), Akhtar ( Behind the two Ws for first 4 years), Ntini ( behind Pollock & Donald), etc. 

 

If there are guys who can bowl their stock ball at 140+kph (not their effort ball, but stock ball),then it will work. If they are below 6'4/6'5, they won't get the rib-cage high bounce from full length like Walsh or Garner used to get. We are talking of 3rd/4th bowler here, not opening bowler, ie, guys who are getting the ball at 15-20 over mark and have to bowl with a ball that does nothing, till the openers come back again around the 40 over mark, when the ball is old enough to reverse. 

 

130-135Kph is simply not good enough if you are not getting the Walsh/Garner like trampoline bounce.  This is what has worked for 3rd/4th pace bowler of a 4 prong attack in the last 40 years. Put Shami or Akash as 3rd/4th bowler and they will be lucky to post 20-5-70-2 kind of figures and average will shoot up to 35+. That is not good enough and at that point, the spinner becomes more viable.

This is the reason why even for SENA countries, fielding 4 prong pace attack is so rare on a consistent basis - its very rare to find a bowler who can bowl 140+kph or get trampoline bounce and have 3 or more of them at the same time. 

 

Bumrah will do fine as a 3rd bowler, but then again, why would you take your best bowler, an all time great potential guy, who averages 20 and change as opener and put him in a role that will see him struggle to average under 25 ? 

 

 

Siraj like bowler did just fine in 2021 at his peak. With 133 to 142 speed. 

 

Mayank is rapid. Faster than all Aussie bowlers except starc

 

I said they are 135 to 145 bowlers. So average would be 138 139 and you don't really need consistent bounce throughout the day. You use bouncers as a surprise weapon. 

[Muloghonto]

1 minute ago, Kron said:

Siraj like bowler did just fine in 2021 at his peak. With 133 to 142 speed. 

 

Mayank is rapid. Faster than all Aussie bowlers except starc

 

I said they are 135 to 145 bowlers. So average would be 138 139 and you don't really need consistent bounce throughout the day. You use bouncers as a surprise weapon. 

 

Siraj didnt do fine and that is why he is not a regular 3rd seamer. Anything under 140 isnt fast enough to trouble good batsmen when the ball isnt moving. The trampoline bounce is needed so that you can bowl balls to the rib cage region from a good length- thats what makes those trampoline bounce bowlers so hard to score off of ( look at the economy rate of super-tall good bowlers like Ambrose, Walsh, Garner, etc- its 2.5 or something ridiculous ! thats 10-?-25-? as an average). Because that length is too full for cross-batted shots like pull or hook and the bounce is way too high to drive. Its one of the two you need when the ball isnt moving in the 20-40 over range- either serious pace, where your stock ball is 140+ (which means most of your balls will be 140+, with effort ball being in the 145 range) or serious bounce. Without those, there isnt a successful 3rd/4th seamer in the last 40 years, which i will put as averaging around 25-27 as a third seamer at the very least. 
Siraj like players are like Ata-ur-Rahman type bowlers, who will come in behind two good/great bowlers as a #4 and end up averaging 2.5-3 wickets per match at an average of 35 or so. When your 4th pacer is getting those kind of numbers, you are better off with a spinner.

 

[Kron]

30 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

 

Siraj didnt do fine and that is why he is not a regular 3rd seamer. Anything under 140 isnt fast enough to trouble good batsmen when the ball isnt moving. The trampoline bounce is needed so that you can bowl balls to the rib cage region from a good length- thats what makes those trampoline bounce bowlers so hard to score off of ( look at the economy rate of super-tall good bowlers like Ambrose, Walsh, Garner, etc- its 2.5 or something ridiculous ! thats 10-?-25-? as an average). Because that length is too full for cross-batted shots like pull or hook and the bounce is way too high to drive. Its one of the two you need when the ball isnt moving in the 20-40 over range- either serious pace, where your stock ball is 140+ (which means most of your balls will be 140+, with effort ball being in the 145 range) or serious bounce. Without those, there isnt a successful 3rd/4th seamer in the last 40 years, which i will put as averaging around 25-27 as a third seamer at the very least. 
Siraj like players are like Ata-ur-Rahman type bowlers, who will come in behind two good/great bowlers as a #4 and end up averaging 2.5-3 wickets per match at an average of 35 or so. When your 4th pacer is getting those kind of numbers, you are better off with a spinner.

 

Well mayank can average 138 140 

Same with sen and a couple of others. 

They will do just fine. Tyagi is rapid. 

[vvvslaxman]

Watched cricbuzz chat between Harsha and DK. Harsha seemed to have told him "How can you get bowled by a spinner". He seemed to have said he is carrying a knee injury. His fielding was more lethargic than usual. He might retire on his own i think.

[Vijy]

9 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

Watched cricbuzz chat between Harsha and DK. Harsha seemed to have told him "How can you get bowled by a spinner". He seemed to have said he is carrying a knee injury. His fielding was more lethargic than usual. He might retire on his own i think.

who? Ashwin? Or DK?

[vvvslaxman]

1 minute ago, Vijy said:

who? Ashwin? Or DK?

DK is retiring anyway this season. He already announced. I am talking about Ashwin. He has knee issues. Seems like played through the series.

[Vijy]

3 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

DK is retiring anyway this season. He already announced. I am talking about Ashwin. He has knee issues. Seems like played through the series.

I see. I hope he retires on a high after picking some cheap wickets.

[vvvslaxman]

7 minutes ago, Vijy said:

I see. I hope he retires on a high after picking some cheap wickets.

 

He has 512 cheap wikets. ANother 30 odd chepa wickets he will call it a day

[Vijy]

Just now, vvvslaxman said:

 

He has 512 cheap wikets. ANother 30 odd chepa wickets he will call it a day

I meant that we probably play some weak teams soon, so he should look to dominate them, lower his avg and SR further, etc.