IP doesn't deserve to be in the playing XI

[The Outsider]

^ Pathan is not only a number 8 batsman - he offers the team a very good option of a pinch hitter at number 3 where he has been extremely successful and also the option of sending him higher up the batting order at number 5/6/7 in the slog overs ahead of more technically correct batsmen who like to play out a few deliveries before striking. Munaf's fielding is just so pathetic that it's a contagious infection resulting in drop of fielding levels and intensity of the whole side. It's one thing to be an ordinary fielder and it's a separate thing to just lounge around the outfield and jog towards the ball. The former can still be played if their other skills are good if they show commitment, the latter should not be played in at least limited overs cricket where keeping the pressure up and intensity in the field are such crucial things which cannot be put into just numbers.

[satishg]

bunny take it easy on Irfan..he is way better prospect than the 2 guys that u have mentioned..both Nehra and Munaf are a disgrace to our team..they cant hold the bat and they cant field at all..ok they mite be marginally better than Irfan rite now bowling wise..but Irfan is no push over..he knows wat it takes to succeed in this level..and im sure he wud adjust to his new role pretty soon..he is the best bet for an allrounder rite now in our team..and he offers a lot of balance..its not like he has been leaking runs and not taking wickets at all..its jus that he has been less effective..but IP is much better than the other 2 and he offers much more and moreover v all know wat an in form Irfan can do..remember the 16 match winning streak wen Irfan was at his peak..im not telling u that v have to keep looking at the past..but v shd also know the talent and caliber of the players v are talking about..Irfan is versatile to say the least and v need players like him in our ODI squad for sure..

[bunny]

bunny take it easy on Irfan..he is way better prospect than the 2 guys that u have mentioned..both Nehra and Munaf are a disgrace to our team..they cant hold the bat and they cant field at all..ok they mite be marginally better than Irfan rite now bowling wise..but Irfan is no push over..he knows wat it takes to succeed in this level..and im sure he wud adjust to his new role pretty soon..he is the best bet for an allrounder rite now in our team..and he offers a lot of balance..its not like he has been leaking runs and not taking wickets at all..its jus that he has been less effective..but IP is much better than the other 2 and he offers much more and moreover v all know wat an in form Irfan can do..remember the 16 match winning streak wen Irfan was at his peak..im not telling u that v have to keep looking at the past..but v shd also know the talent and caliber of the players v are talking about..Irfan is versatile to say the least and v need players like him in our ODI squad for sure..

Don't disagree that Irfan is a good talent. But, that alone doesn't mean much. He should be in the squad and whenever we are playing 5 bowlers (or when he rediscovers his mojo) he is a sure-shot selection in the XI. But, right now, he deserves criticism for the way he is bowling. And on this forum I have seen a lot of hatred for Munaf and Nehra which is unjustified. I am sure when PK goes out of form selectors will just discard him and guys here will say that PK was/is just a trundler, a dibbly-dobbly kind of bowler. Well guess what, IP is a trundler right now, but don't see any thread questioning his spot.

[flamy]

Well... the thing is while Irfan was making his comeback, he was largely used as the 2nd change bowler, because he had lost his swing, and was operating with change-of-pace, cutters and slow bouncers. And he was very effective in that role. Very tight line and length, which had the Aussies under pressure (except the finals :D). He is in the top 5 for the ODI team for sure and rightly so. Thing is, when we have prodigious swinging conditions, we can have Pathan share the new ball with PK. He is doing alright right now. He will get better as he seems to have rediscovered that banana in the IPL. All this, of course is still contingent on PK's form, who has impressed me a lot, although I'll want to watch at least 10 more matches with him before I can form my (revised) judgement.

[chanakya]

he may not be the best first change bowler we have but he can be extremely good with the new ball if one of the new ball bowlers get hit out of the attack.

[Cricketics]

yaa drop the bowler who won us the big test @ perth.. drop him.. drop the bloody damn bowler bring on abey kuruvila

[Mr. Wicket]

Munaf's fielding is just so pathetic that it's a contagious infection resulting in drop of fielding levels and intensity of the whole side. It's one thing to be an ordinary fielder and it's a separate thing to just lounge around the outfield and jog towards the ball.

Who are you talking about here? Munaf doesn't jog towards the ball, he uses the intimidatory fielding tactic where one simply stares angrily at the ball in hopes that it slows down.

[ludhianvi]

Who are you talking about here? Munaf doesn't jog towards the ball, he uses the intimidatory fielding tactic where one simply stares angrily at the ball in hopes that it slows down.

that's classic:hysterical:

[bunny]

yaa drop the bowler who won us the big test @ perth.. drop him.. drop the bloody damn bowler bring on abey kuruvila

What an ironic argument.

[Willow_on_fire]

Who are you talking about here? Munaf doesn't jog towards the ball, he uses the intimidatory fielding tactic where one simply stares angrily at the ball in hopes that it slows down.

:haha:

[msb1991]

Although I do find that quite funny (very funny actually), Munaf's fielding has appreciably improved in the few months before the IPL and during the IPL. The common concensus that he is not good enough for ODIs is a true one though. For ODIs, players with consistent fitness are required as well as players who can perform consistently, whereas Munaf is far too much of a daisy bowler (English phrase, "some days he (daisy) bowls well, other days he doesn't") for ODIs. However, I still believe that he is a legitamate Test bowler who should currently lie below Irfan, Zaheer, and Ishant in the fast bowling stocks, equal with Sreesanth - but for different surfaces and conditions. As for Irfan Pathan, I believe he needs to perhaps appreciate his former bowling style for ODIs. Even when his pace dropped to 75mph, he was still taking ODI wickets in the Champions Trophy and in the match against West Indies prior to the World Cup. This is simply because a large amount of hooped inswing is perfect for ODI cricket, especially with the new ball during the powerplays. I am unsure whether adopting two very different styles for ODIs and Tests is feasible; but it is clear that his change of action has brought an improvement in Test cricket - as he has gone to a very poor Test bowler against Test quality opposition (ie. not Bangladesh and Zimbabwe) to a quite good one and has excelled at T20 - the question arises upon whether we really need him to jepordise his Test future for ODI cricket in changing his approach to bowling, once more. In my opinion, the answer is no. Another problem which will hound Irfan Pathan and prevent him from ever being a 'great' Test bowler is the fact that his short balls are quite extraordinarily harmless. They rise, but as an extremely slow pace off the pitch, I am quite stumped as to what causes this, but it is clearly not a lack of release speed (since he bowls at 130kph) nor height. My theory is that it comes from his release, which is catored toward swing and does not add the pace which it should. The slight 'proof' for this comes when he bowls some off break slower balls at 115-120kph, barely a drop in pace, whereas it should cut average pace by about 20-25kph - in my opinion, this implies that his regular release costs him some pace.

[fineleg]

Who the heck is suggesting Daadaji Munaf Patel to be in the 11? Throw that guy out as far as you can from the ODI team - Munaf Patel :mad: He is not some great bowler, a schmuck with the bat, the WORST FIELDER ever for India, and his attitude will even cause the team morale to go down. Irfan Pathan should be used as opening bowler in ODIs - that is where he can use the new ball. MSD is not using him correctly.

[msb1991]

Who the heck is suggesting Daadaji Munaf Patel to be in the 11? Throw that guy out as far as you can from the ODI team - Munaf Patel :mad: He is not some great bowler' date=' a schmuck with the bat, the WORST FIELDER ever for India, and his attitude will even cause the team morale to go down.[/quote']Definately not in the ODI team. However, he apparently raises team morale as a 'character' in the team and this is not necessarily detrimental. It is not always 'monkey see, monkey do' with fielding.

Irfan Pathan should be used as opening bowler in ODIs - that is where he can use the new ball. MSD is not using him correctly.

Perhaps, but Ishant Sharma and Praveen Kumar are better with the new ball, both possessing stupendous ODI records with the former showing a clear incapacity to bowl at the death with the old ball and the latter being the ideal opening bowler considering he is fast, tall and gets outswing which contradicts his angle. Giving Pathan the new ball would also prevent him from realising his issues in ODI cricket, I believe that with a hard worker like him, it is best to help him realise that he has a long way to go before he is an ODI bowler again but that he is by no means incapable of improving to that level.

[The Outsider]

msb has made some really top notch posts on this thread and I share his views about Munaf being a handy test match bowler - in fact I considered him one of the best to come out from India till he started playing ODIs regularly and went for the line and length approach which leaves him nowhere. But in ODIs he is just a huge liability.

[The Outsider]

Who are you talking about here? Munaf doesn't jog towards the ball, he uses the intimidatory fielding tactic where one simply stares angrily at the ball in hopes that it slows down.

:hysterical::hysterical: Classic!

[Fontaine]

Giving Pathan the new ball would also prevent him from realising his issues in ODI cricket' date=' I believe that with a hard worker like him, it is best to help him realise that he has a long way to go before he is an ODI bowler again but that he is by no means incapable of improving to that level.[/quote'] There's no way Pathan should get the new ball ahead of Ishant/Praveen or even Zaheer Khan in ODI simply based on the latter's better performance in both taking wickets and economy. But you can't simply look at Pathan's recent form and take it in isolation. The player has made a remarkeable comeback from being the only Indian cricketer or modern times to be sent back from a tour (South Africa). He's had to completely change his bowling action and has played in both 20/20, ODI, and Test cricket. Dropping him now without consideration to the above would send the wrong message to him. He's worked extremely hard in his comeback and to drop him at the first sign or average to poor form is cowardly and gutless. Two things need to happen before he is dropped from ODIs: 1. He's becoming a liability to the team (both as batsmen and continuing to bowl poorly for the next 4-6 matches) 2. A better ODI option at number three needs to emerge. Forget Munaf and Nehra, how have they proved they are better options? Now, if Zaheer Khan comes back fit and strong and wants to play ODIs then you have to give the best 3 or 4 bowlers that selection out of Praveen/Ishant/Pathan/RP/Sreesanth/Zaheer and in that case it would be a great problem to have to pick from so many good bowlers.

[msb1991]

By making him realise that he needs to improve, I meant not giving him the new ball, not dropping him.

[Fontaine]

By making him realise that he needs to improve' date=' I meant not giving him the new ball, not dropping him.[/quote'] Dude, the guy knows first hand he needs to improve. You don't get to where he is without having an incredible desire to work hard and try and improve.

[msb1991]

Dude' date=' the guy knows first hand he needs to improve. You don't get to where he is without having an incredible desire to work hard and try and improve.[/quote'] I know that, but if he is given the new ball in ODIs, he has no motive to improve.

[bunny]

This game once again demonstrated IP's weaknesses as a 1st change bowler. He goes for 34 runs in his first 5 overs when Pakistan were scoring at a RR of 3. (He did well in the death overs but we were already in a messed up situation by then). Any how, today the spinners/MSD's captaincy were more responsible for the defeat, as also the fact that we played only 4 bowlers. But, IP was bad in his first spell.