Indian Defense Updates

[rangeelaraja]

37 minutes ago, Lone Wolf said:

Meteor and Rafale is a never ending rudali saga... When it comes to IAF.

 

And no serious country ever shares its source code can't blame French here. 

The recent order is a smaller one which hints that IAF already had Meteors in sizeable numbers during Op Sindoor now why weren't they used and if they are integrated are major mysteries that no one is willing to answer.

 

 

Even RTI applications have been rejected on it when people ask questions on what's the actual status of meteor.

 

IAF is not in a good shape that has been well established by every Indian defence analyst.

 

This is how Grok responded - it makes complete sense now. 

@Lone Wolf

 

 

Why Wasn't Meteor Used?

 

Multiple credible reports point to delays in full operational integration and certification on India's customized Rafale fleet (with India-Specific Enhancements, or ISEs, including custom avionics, Israeli helmet sights, and high-altitude optimizations).

 

Integration challenges — The Meteor requires seamless compatibility with the Rafale's software, radar (RBE2 AESA), datalink, and fire-control systems. India's unique modifications made this more complex, requiring extensive testing and certification. Even though 250 Meteors were ordered in the 2016 deal (and some deliveries confirmed via SIPRI data), full operational clearance for combat use appears to have lagged.

Operational factors — The mission focused on standoff ground strikes against terror camps, not deep air superiority battles. Rules of engagement were restrained (no escalation to full air war), enemy aircraft often stayed under SAM cover, and Rafales didn't need to engage at extreme BVR ranges. MICA was sufficient for close-in threats.

 

Not a complete absence — Some sources suggest integration was technically achieved but not fully battle-ready in May 2025 (e.g., no photos of Indian Rafales with Meteor until later). Post-operation, India fast-tracked additional Meteor procurement (Rs 1,500 crore proposal cleared in late 2025) to boost stocks and capabilities.

 

What About Source Code?

 

France (Dassault/MBDA) has been reluctant to share full Rafale source code (for AESA radar, mission computer, etc.), mainly to protect proprietary tech and prevent easy integration of non-French/Indian weapons (e.g., Astra missile) that could compete with MBDA products like Meteor/MICA.This has delayed indigenous weapon integrations (Astra, Rudram), but it is not the direct reason for Meteor's non-use. Meteor is a French/European missile built for Rafale — integration is part of the original package, so source code access isn't required for it (unlike third-party weapons). The delays stem more from India's custom ISEs and certification timelines, not a code blockade.In short: Meteor wasn't used in Sindoor due to integration/certification delays on the customized Indian Rafales + mission profile not requiring it, rather than any deliberate withholding of source code for that specific missile.

 

Post-Sindoor, India is actively expanding its Meteor arsenal and pushing for faster integration — a clear lesson learned for future operations. The Rafale remains a potent platform, and with full Meteor capability now accelerating, it's set to be even more dominant.

Edited December 31, 2025 by rangeelaraja

[singhvivek141]

1 hour ago, rangeelaraja said:

 

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/india-to-boost-air-to-air-combat-capabilities-with-more-meteor-missiles/articleshow/124958677.cms?from=mdr

 

This is great news, but what I don't understand is - we have recently bought more Meteors for Rafales but last I heard we were not able to integrate them because France wasn't sharing source code. And we were not able to use any Meteors during Op Sindoor 1.0.

 

What am i missing here ?  

 

@Lone Wolf @singhvivek141 

 

I now think that we have Meteors, but probably we didnt felt the need to use them due to S400.

 

S400 did a long range kill of AWACS and also potentially some JF17s, J10Cs...this forced PAF to use the long range PL15s from its maximum range with zero "No kill zone" and then they ran away.

 

Meteor is quite costly missile, but IAF was satisfied using cheaper Brahmos & SCALP which caused much damage to the runways and Airbases of Pakistan. Rafale's were just protecting the Su30MKI, they were never in the active role.

 

Otherwise, it makes no sense to buy additional Meteor missiles. It just to build the reserves, specially as the Rafale M jets are also in pipeline.

Edited December 31, 2025 by singhvivek141

[singhvivek141]

23 minutes ago, G_B_ said:

I wonder where pralay sits in relation to project vishnu...

 

Is a temp missile. Wont be inducted in numbers.

 

Pralay fills the vacuum between Brahmos and Prithvi.

Prithvi is in range of 150-200 km...Brahmos starts with 400 something and ends at 800. Our Agni series starts from 750 km something.

 

Pralay with its range of 200-500 will sit between Brahmos and Prithvi...also Prithvi missile is getting old and probably would be replaced soon as its tech is getting redundant.

[G_B_]

3 minutes ago, singhvivek141 said:

 

Pralay fills the vacuum between Brahmos and Prithvi.

Prithvi is in range of 150-200 km...Brahmos starts with 400 something and ends at 800. Our Agni series starts from 750 km something.

 

Pralay with its range of 200-500 will sit between Brahmos and Prithvi...also Prithvi missile is getting old and probably would be replaced soon as its tech is getting redundant.

Payload is 1000 to 2000kg. Same as project vishnu.

 

 

[rangeelaraja]

5 minutes ago, singhvivek141 said:

 

I now think that we have Meteors, but probably we didnt felt the need to use them due to S400.

 

S400 did a long range kill of AWACS and also potentially some JF17s, J10Cs...this forced PAF to use the long range PL15s from its maximum range with zero "No kill zone" and then they ran away.

 

Meteor is quite costly missile, but IAF was satisfied using cheaper Brahmos & SCALP which caused much damage to the runways and Airbases of Pakistan. Rafale's were just protecting the Su30MKI, they were never in the active role.

 

Otherwise, it makes no sense to buy additional Meteor missiles. It just to build the reserves, specially as the Rafale M jets are also in pipeline.

 

 

It has nothing to do with cost. Brahmos is equally pricey.

 

This is the rules of engagement  restraint that the leadership mentioned --from chatgpt. 

 

I think it is a combination of not being fully integrated plus the mission was not air to air domination but ground kills. 

 

This again makes my blood boil - because it shows how slow and laid back we are in preparation. 

 

Short answer: because using Meteor would have crossed escalation, rules-of-engagement, and exposure thresholds that India deliberately chose not to cross during Sindoor.

Here is the clear, structured explanation.

---

1. Mission objective did not require Meteor

Meteor is a beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile designed to kill enemy fighters, not strike ground targets.

During Sindoor, the Indian objective was:

• Precision punishment

• Limited duration

• No air-to-air escalation with the opposing air force

India was not trying to establish air superiority or shoot down enemy jets.
So using Meteor would have been missionally unnecessary.

---

2. Meteor use would signal escalation dominance

Meteor is not just another missile. It is widely understood as:

• One of the most lethal BVR missiles in the world

• A qualitative overmatch against regional adversaries

Once Meteor is fired in combat:

• It signals willingness to dominate the air war

• It invites retaliatory escalation

• It changes the conflict narrative from “limited strike” to “air combat escalation”

India’s strategy was controlled escalation, not dominance demonstration.

---

3. Rules of Engagement were deliberately restrictive

During Sindoor, Indian pilots were operating under:

• Strict ROE

• Fire only if engaged or clearly threatened

• Avoid crossing thresholds that trigger full-scale retaliation

Meteor’s long no-escape zone means:

• Engagements occur far beyond visual confirmation

• Any launch can be interpreted as preemptive air combat

India chose to stay below that threshold.

---

4. Avoiding intelligence compromise of Meteor

Meteor’s biggest advantage is its:

• Ramjet propulsion profile

• Mid-course guidance behavior

• End-game energy retention

Using it in a limited conflict risks:

• Radar telemetry capture

• Signal intelligence collection

• Adversary learning engagement envelopes

India and its partners prefer:

• Meteor preserved for high-end, state-on-state war

• Not expended in a short, politically constrained operation

---

5. Political signaling mattered more than kill capability

Sindoor was as much about messaging as military effect:

• “We can strike”

• “We can de-escalate”

• “We choose restraint”

Meteor use would have sent the opposite message:

• “We are ready for air war”

• “We accept escalation risk”

India deliberately avoided that signal.

---

Bottom line

India did not avoid Meteor because of:

• Lack of confidence

• Technical issues

• Platform limitations

India avoided Meteor because of:

• Strategic restraint

• Escalation control

• Mission appropriateness

• Long-term deterrence preservation

Meteor is reserved for the day air dominance actually needs to be asserted.

[Lone Wolf]

33 minutes ago, singhvivek141 said:

S400 did a long range kill of AWACS and also potentially some JF17s, J10Cs...this forced PAF to use the long range PL15s from its maximum range with zero "No kill zone" and then they ran away.

We didn't wanted a air superiority shoot out with PAF which already had its Long range BVRAAMs in sizeable numbers on its fighters.  

 

We adopted a safer route and went for air to surface attack through Brahmos and Scalp by staying out of range of a2a.  In this way we learned from the mistakes of 2019.  So while Pooks were swayed by S400 we also had to resort to not engage directly with PAF.

 

However wars cannot be won without achieving air superiority in this day and age.  It's a critical gap and that's why Astra Mk2 induction is extremely crucial for IAF in immediate future.

Rafale is a glorified silver bullet at this point without the adequate numbers.

[Lone Wolf]

33 minutes ago, rangeelaraja said:

This again makes my blood boil - because it shows how slow and laid back we are in preparation

Mission objectives change with capabilities... If we could have outranged every PAF fighter out there.. rules of engagement would have been different..

We went with what we had.. yes the inadequacies exist but can't fault the operation overall.

 

Not using your capabilities is what should make you angry that is the Indian Navy where we could have really crushed Pakistani Naval capabilities even most of their subs were docked in Karachi harbour and were sitting ducks literally.

That would have secured entire Arabian sea for next decade and a half.

[Lone Wolf]

40 minutes ago, G_B_ said:

Payload is 1000 to 2000kg. Same as project vishnu.

 

 

Pralay's role is exactly like "Iskander"  we know how effective that has been for Russians over the years in contested zones.

 

With its heavy payloads command centres, troop concentrations, major radar and AD systems in a SEAD ops can be wiped out in a cost effective manner.

They are saying it is less than $1 mil a pop.. cost effective solution to terror launch pads even in peace time.

[rangeelaraja]

13 minutes ago, Lone Wolf said:

Mission objectives change with capabilities... If we could have outranged every PAF fighter out there.. rules of engagement would have been different..

We went with what we had.. yes the inadequacies exist but can't fault the operation overall.

 

Not using your capabilities is what should make you angry that is the Indian Navy where we could have really crushed Pakistani Naval capabilities even most of their subs were docked in Karachi harbour and were sitting ducks literally.

That would have secured entire Arabian sea for next decade and a half.

 

 

Even the Pak navy has been barking a lot. That they observe all our submarines and that INS Vikrant retreated out of fear of being attacked. 

 

The next time - I am hoping for a saturation attack on these bastards. Nothing less. 

[Lone Wolf]

3 minutes ago, rangeelaraja said:

 

 

Even the Pak navy has been barking a lot. That they observe all our submarines and that INS Vikrant retreated out of fear of being attacked. 

 

The next time - I am hoping for a saturation attack on these bastards. Nothing less. 

Americans and Chinese both can replenish their fallen fighters or even AWACS and HQ9 batteries fairly quickly but what they can't do is replenish their surface vessels, frigates and especially those Submarines..

Entire Pookland and Asim Munir would have been in a state of unimaginable horror and pain if we had struck there.

Reckon even top brass later realised that was a gigantic missed opportunity when even Modi had to say to Naval Chief " aap ka nivala cheen liya".. you don't ever hear him say that otherwise 

[rangeelaraja]

11 minutes ago, Lone Wolf said:

Americans and Chinese both can replenish their fallen fighters or even AWACS and HQ9 batteries fairly quickly but what they can't do is replenish their surface vessels, frigates and especially those Submarines..

Entire Pookland and Asim Munir would have been in a state of unimaginable horror and pain if we had struck there.

Reckon even top brass later realised that was a gigantic missed opportunity when even Modi had to say to Naval Chief " aap ka nivala cheen liya".. you don't ever hear him say that otherwise 

 

 

I don't understand why India never expects Pak to respond and always likes to keep it below a threshold. Even during 1.0 the govt said that Pak was informed that they don't wish to escalate and the mission was " accomplished ".  Hopefully we are not going to see this approach ever now.

 

What I would like to see is a devastating saturation attack on GHQ complex. Infact turn the whole of GHQ complex into Gaza. its much smaller so make sure, only ashes and dust remain - and just like Israel did not precision attacks against Iran commanders - I would love for India to do precision missile attacks at the residences all key 3 star generals in Pakistan. The day these mofos start fearing for their lives in their own country is when we can expect a new chapter. 

Edited December 31, 2025 by rangeelaraja

[kepler37b]

2 hours ago, Lone Wolf said:

Peaceful TFR within India is in freefall along with Hindu TFR...

 

Pooks and Afghans in comparison have highest TFR within Asia... The threat is legit with great powers backing these forces to keep us tied forever in South Asian muddle.

 

Internal enemy 0.5 threat is extremely overhyped and there is little to no threat there... Other than being a mere nuisance and rioting factor.  Even that would be severely crushed by Indian state.  

Indians often get distracted by these smaller plays and forget the big picture 

Let's wait for next census to settle the tfr data.

 

Xtian groups are roaming wild across the country and having a field day. 

 

There are organizations that train Muslim IAS candidates. Every one knows why. 

 

Why wait long. Let's wait for 2029. If Rahul baaba comes to powe, picture will become very clear.

[G_B_]

4 hours ago, Lone Wolf said:

Pralay's role is exactly like "Iskander"  we know how effective that has been for Russians over the years in contested zones.

 

With its heavy payloads command centres, troop concentrations, major radar and AD systems in a SEAD ops can be wiped out in a cost effective manner.

They are saying it is less than $1 mil a pop.. cost effective solution to terror launch pads even in peace time.

Ok if its 1 million for pralay then costs 100% makes sense.

 

[G_B_]

5 hours ago, Lone Wolf said:

We didn't wanted a air superiority shoot out with PAF which already had its Long range BVRAAMs in sizeable numbers on its fighters.  

 

We adopted a safer route and went for air to surface attack through Brahmos and Scalp by staying out of range of a2a.  In this way we learned from the mistakes of 2019.  So while Pooks were swayed by S400 we also had to resort to not engage directly with PAF.

 

However wars cannot be won without achieving air superiority in this day and age.  It's a critical gap and that's why Astra Mk2 induction is extremely crucial for IAF in immediate future.

Rafale is a glorified silver bullet at this point without the adequate numbers.

 

Wouldnt we have taken out their air bases?

 

I dont see why it would become an air to air battle. 

[singhvivek141]

5 hours ago, rangeelaraja said:

 

 

I don't understand why India never expects Pak to respond and always likes to keep it below a threshold. Even during 1.0 the govt said that Pak was informed that they don't wish to escalate and the mission was " accomplished ".  Hopefully we are not going to see this approach ever now.

 

What I would like to see is a devastating saturation attack on GHQ complex. Infact turn the whole of GHQ complex into Gaza. its much smaller so make sure, only ashes and dust remain - and just like Israel did not precision attacks against Iran commanders - I would love for India to do precision missile attacks at the residences all key 3 star generals in Pakistan. The day these mofos start fearing for their lives in their own country is when we can expect a new chapter. 

Probably because thats what Chinks, Turks and US wanted.

To engage India into a long term battle with Pakistan...similar to Russia-Ukraine.

 

China was providing them satellite imagery and real time data, Turks were providing them drones and artillery. The motive was clear, to force India to escalate and launch attacks, one civilian casualty and Al Jazeera would have circulated the narrative in the entire West as the "battle against our religion", our own internal 0.5 front would have been activated.

 

At this moment, its very clear that we need to build huge stockpiles of weapons to prolong a full blown war for atleast 6 months. On top of that, the internal 0.5 front needs to be taken care of. We have so many holes within which needs to be plugged in.

[singhvivek141]

7 hours ago, rangeelaraja said:

 

 

It has nothing to do with cost. Brahmos is equally pricey.

 

This is the rules of engagement  restraint that the leadership mentioned --from chatgpt. 

 

I think it is a combination of not being fully integrated plus the mission was not air to air domination but ground kills. 

 

This again makes my blood boil - because it shows how slow and laid back we are in preparation. 

 

Short answer: because using Meteor would have crossed escalation, rules-of-engagement, and exposure thresholds that India deliberately chose not to cross during Sindoor.

Here is the clear, structured explanation.

---

1. Mission objective did not require Meteor

Meteor is a beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile designed to kill enemy fighters, not strike ground targets.

During Sindoor, the Indian objective was:

• Precision punishment

• Limited duration

• No air-to-air escalation with the opposing air force

India was not trying to establish air superiority or shoot down enemy jets.
So using Meteor would have been missionally unnecessary.

---

2. Meteor use would signal escalation dominance

Meteor is not just another missile. It is widely understood as:

• One of the most lethal BVR missiles in the world

• A qualitative overmatch against regional adversaries

Once Meteor is fired in combat:

• It signals willingness to dominate the air war

• It invites retaliatory escalation

• It changes the conflict narrative from “limited strike” to “air combat escalation”

India’s strategy was controlled escalation, not dominance demonstration.

---

3. Rules of Engagement were deliberately restrictive

During Sindoor, Indian pilots were operating under:

• Strict ROE

• Fire only if engaged or clearly threatened

• Avoid crossing thresholds that trigger full-scale retaliation

Meteor’s long no-escape zone means:

• Engagements occur far beyond visual confirmation

• Any launch can be interpreted as preemptive air combat

India chose to stay below that threshold.

---

4. Avoiding intelligence compromise of Meteor

Meteor’s biggest advantage is its:

• Ramjet propulsion profile

• Mid-course guidance behavior

• End-game energy retention

Using it in a limited conflict risks:

• Radar telemetry capture

• Signal intelligence collection

• Adversary learning engagement envelopes

India and its partners prefer:

• Meteor preserved for high-end, state-on-state war

• Not expended in a short, politically constrained operation

---

5. Political signaling mattered more than kill capability

Sindoor was as much about messaging as military effect:

• “We can strike”

• “We can de-escalate”

• “We choose restraint”

Meteor use would have sent the opposite message:

• “We are ready for air war”

• “We accept escalation risk”

India deliberately avoided that signal.

---

Bottom line

India did not avoid Meteor because of:

• Lack of confidence

• Technical issues

• Platform limitations

India avoided Meteor because of:

• Strategic restraint

• Escalation control

• Mission appropriateness

• Long-term deterrence preservation

Meteor is reserved for the day air dominance actually needs to be asserted.

I wont rely on Chatgpt...its often biased.

But yeah, its true that India didnt use Meteor coz its motive wasnt to have A2A combat.

 

Also, cost is a factor. Meteors are more expensive than Brahmos, but biggest reason is Brahmos we can mass produce, for Meteors, we hv to rely on France again and wait for deliveries.

 

Again thats where atmnirbharta comes in and Astra mk2 becomes important. Meteors will become secondary while our home grown Astra mk2 would become the heavy hitter.

[rangeelaraja]

17 minutes ago, singhvivek141 said:

I wont rely on Chatgpt...its often biased.

But yeah, its true that India didnt use Meteor coz its motive wasnt to have A2A combat.

 

Also, cost is a factor. Meteors are more expensive than Brahmos, but biggest reason is Brahmos we can mass produce, for Meteors, we hv to rely on France again and wait for deliveries.

 

Again thats where atmnirbharta comes in and Astra mk2 becomes important. Meteors will become secondary while our home grown Astra mk2 would become the heavy hitter.

 

 

Thats not true brother. Brahmos - most basic version is USD 3.5 million - Meteor is 2-2.5 million EUR, which is under USD 3 million.

 

1) First of all Brahmos is certainly more expensive than Meteor. So cost is not a factor. 

 

2) And even if it were not more expensive, you think for a few million dollars India is going to Chindigiri ?  Makes no sense. Cost will never be a factor. 

 

Meteor is only A2A  - it is not capable of delivering the lethal surface level destruction with precision like Brahmos can and did. 

[singhvivek141]

1 hour ago, rangeelaraja said:

 

 

Thats not true brother. Brahmos - most basic version is USD 3.5 million - Meteor is 2-2.5 million EUR, which is under USD 3 million.

 

1) First of all Brahmos is certainly more expensive than Meteor. So cost is not a factor. 

 

2) And even if it were not more expensive, you think for a few million dollars India is going to Chindigiri ?  Makes no sense. Cost will never be a factor. 

 

Meteor is only A2A  - it is not capable of delivering the lethal surface level destruction with precision like Brahmos can and did. 

You're right, my apologies.

I looked at the cost/kg and assumed the same. Didn't consider the payload.

 

Meteor has higher cost/kg as it has less payload than Brahmos. Its more like a sniper bullet which can take off the enemy aircraft. 

 

Brahmos, though most costly, also delivers much heavy payload and can obliterate the surface which we used in Op Sindoor. So, it seems Meteor wasnt even used coz Brahmos did bigger damage to the PAF and crippled them. Had we continued the barrange of Brahmos and blown away all the runways...PAF would hv been a sitting duck against the mayhem which we could have caused.

 

 

[Lone Wolf]

12 hours ago, G_B_ said:

 

Wouldnt we have taken out their air bases?

 

I dont see why it would become an air to air battle. 

Pooks do lack strategic depth but we probably wouldn't have been able to neutralize them all ..and longer ranged  ballistic and cruise missiles would likely lead  towards a sure shot nuclear exchange.

It's a slippery slope when ballistic missiles start to rain down.

[Lone Wolf]

8 hours ago, singhvivek141 said:

Brahmos, though most costly, also delivers much heavy payload and can obliterate the surface which we used in Op Sindoor.

Brahmos design is still anti ship and air to surface variants carry lesser payloads compared to surface to surface variants.

 

It was proven and in sizeable numbers hence used.

If IAF had Rudram 2/3 operational they wouldn't even have looked at Brahmos while destroying Pak airbases.