Lone Wolf Posted May 31 Posted May 31 Indian Navy perhaps is already working on counter measures for those newer subs. It's evident the next flashpoint will see Navy in action. ravishingravi 1
ravishingravi Posted May 31 Posted May 31 Very interesting unexpected speech. This is really now game within a game. Pak supported by China against India. India is now quietly doing US job on the strait.
Lone Wolf Posted May 31 Posted May 31 (edited) 15 minutes ago, ravishingravi said: Very interesting unexpected speech. This is really now game within a game. Pak supported by China against India. India is now quietly doing US job on the strait. Hegseth said a lot without saying much. Bottom line seems that they expect India to act as "anchor" against China to hold them off and subsequently Pakistan is needed to hold Indian influence in South Asia.. It's a game of check and balances for them. Indian establishment has known this for years and its only coming out in the open now. Edited May 31 by Lone Wolf
ravishingravi Posted May 31 Posted May 31 1 hour ago, Lone Wolf said: Hegseth said a lot without saying much. Bottom line seems that they expect India to act as "anchor" against China to hold them off and subsequently Pakistan is needed to hold Indian influence in South Asia.. It's a game of check and balances for them. Indian establishment has known this for years and its only coming out in the open now. Correct. But India is also playing this game of check and balance. India needs US for next 15 years of it has to keep growing. India needs to also take care of Pakistan. China needs to take care of India. Pakistan elites wants to keep extracting rent. We will see what gives when. Something will. Lone Wolf and singhvivek141 2
Lone Wolf Posted May 31 Posted May 31 (edited) 1 hour ago, ravishingravi said: Correct. But India is also playing this game of check and balance. India needs US for next 15 years of it has to keep growing. India needs to also take care of Pakistan. China needs to take care of India. Pakistan elites wants to keep extracting rent. We will see what gives when. Something will. US knows it very well that India cannot be allowed to grow and they are sorta saying it openly now through their sources. Rest assured our growth will be stunted somewhat.. our Indigenous MIC is already getting sabotaged and without it India won't touch 10 trillion mark anytime soon. As far as US is concerned they have got right where they want us and they will get concessions Outta us. Problem for us is China and US align on one thing and that's India so that leaves us a very little wriggle room. That's why at Global level as well India is very subdued off late. There already talks about India getting replaced from Quad for Philippines. Quad summit this time was a nothing sorta event as well. Edited May 31 by Lone Wolf singhvivek141 1
singhvivek141 Posted May 31 Posted May 31 3 hours ago, ravishingravi said: Correct. But India is also playing this game of check and balance. India needs US for next 15 years of it has to keep growing. India needs to also take care of Pakistan. China needs to take care of India. Pakistan elites wants to keep extracting rent. We will see what gives when. Something will. 1 hour ago, Lone Wolf said: US knows it very well that India cannot be allowed to grow and they are sorta saying it openly now through their sources. Rest assured our growth will be stunted somewhat.. our Indigenous MIC is already getting sabotaged and without it India won't touch 10 trillion mark anytime soon. As far as US is concerned they have got right where they want us and they will get concessions Outta us. Problem for us is China and US align on one thing and that's India so that leaves us a very little wriggle room. That's why at Global level as well India is very subdued off late. There already talks about India getting replaced from Quad for Philippines. Quad summit this time was a nothing sorta event as well. The US vs China camp is the exact reason why we need Russia alive and kicking (and vice versa for Russia). 1. US don't want another competitor to rise, they neutralized USSR economically, Russia is now a tiny puny economy whom they believe they'll bleed out. 2. China knows US is the biggest dog in the world, they need resources to grow even stronger...no country is as resource rich as Russia. 3. US & China both know India is an adversary and it won't follow their orders like Pak does. Hence either is using Pak to show India who's the boss. 4. Russia is under severe influence of China due to sanctions, Putin isn't an idiot and he knows the cost of that. It needs India to keep a second door open. 5. India needs Russia to remain sovereign, once it falls onto Chinese camp completely...US and it's entire machinery will be under a massive pressure to fight an alliance which has Economic + Military + Nuclear might. Hence, US wants India to save Russia as well. It's a game of power now...China and US are at opposite ends. Russia moving towards China will be a big jolt to US. It has the military might to obliterate US using it's nuclear arsenal, no one has that level of stockpile. India is seen as a balancer by US to avoid Russia falling in trap of China. But it also doesn't want India to become a third pole by itself. Great Game of Geopolitics!! ravishingravi 1
ravishingravi Posted May 31 Posted May 31 Between Nadal and Federer, Djokovic has to wait and find a way. Time will tell. No person is smarter than time.
rangeelaraja Posted June 1 Author Posted June 1 (edited) Philippines, Vietnam, and then Indonesia. While I am losing my **** with anxiety if we have adequate reserves to smoke Pak into smithereens and bitch slap China in Tibet and the Indian Ocean, do these exports suggest that we are self sufficient ? @singhvivek141 @Lone Wolf @G_B_ Edited June 1 by rangeelaraja
singhvivek141 Posted June 1 Posted June 1 (edited) 1 hour ago, rangeelaraja said: Philippines, Vietnam, and then Indonesia. While I am losing my **** with anxiety if we have adequate reserves to smoke Pak into smithereens and bitch slap China in Tibet and the Indian Ocean, do these exports suggest that we are self sufficient ? @singhvivek141 @Lone Wolf @G_B_ Our missile tech is as good as any top tier nation. We have diverse weapons and the DRDO has the capability to come up with the cutting edge tech. Where we lack is the mass scale manufacturing. We have an idea, we produce missiles in smaller numbers and then we jump to next gen tech. Its not a bad thing, but to obliterate the enemy like Pookistan, we need to build tens of thousands of inventories. Once an idea tech is successful, hand it over to Private players who can manufacture it in bulk and earn profits. Take an example of US, they suffered from the lack of stockpile of Tomahawk missiles in the Iran war...as their manufacturing ability is slow. China on the other hand can mass produce the missiles at a pace which can supersede their attrition rate. Edited June 1 by singhvivek141
rangeelaraja Posted June 1 Author Posted June 1 4 minutes ago, singhvivek141 said: Our missile tech is as good as any top tier nation. We have diverse weapons and the DRDO has the capability to come up with the cutting edge tech. Where we lack is the mass scale manufacturing. We have an idea, we produce missiles in smaller numbers and then we jump to next gen tech. Its not a bad thing, but to obliterate the enemy like Pookistan, we need to build tens of thousands of inventories. Once an idea tech is successful, hand it over to Private players who can manufacture it in bulk and earn profits. Take an example of US, they suffered from the lack of stockpile of Tomahawk missiles in the Iran war...as their manufacturing ability is slow. China on the other hand can mass produce the missiles at a pace which can supersede their attrition rate. Bhai, you dint get my question in the above post. What I am asking is the fact that we are taking export orders for this - does it indicate we are self sufficient and have very large numbers for all our needs and 2 front scenario. Otherwise why would India open up the export market to so many countries if it doesn’t already have or can meet its own needs for a 2-3 month high intense conflict ?
Lone Wolf Posted June 1 Posted June 1 (edited) 2 hours ago, rangeelaraja said: Philippines, Vietnam, and then Indonesia. While I am losing my **** with anxiety if we have adequate reserves to smoke Pak into smithereens and bitch slap China in Tibet and the Indian Ocean, do these exports suggest that we are self sufficient ? @singhvivek141 @Lone Wolf @G_B_ Brahmos Aerospace being a joint venture of Russia and India so most of fortune they earn through its sales goes towards it and is used in further R&D stuff. More orders would mean more capital for the venture and its a good thing. But yes Russian permission is also required. For Pakistan we have adequate numbers and I suppose DRDO will work on other indigenous conventional platforms as well. LRLACM I hope gets ordered in sufficient numbers once its Jupiter trails are finished as it is a great conventional strike platform vis a vis China. As of now only nuclear detterance can deter Chinese. Conventional mai we don't have much to stand against their industrial might. Solar only produces 2-3 Pralay missiles per month. War time India would rely on import heavily. Pakistan ke against chal jaayega kam but not a Chance against China. After 1st week of a high intensity conflict we would be giving threats of nuclear strikes. Pookistan nuke doctrine would be adopted. Edited June 1 by Lone Wolf
Lone Wolf Posted June 1 Posted June 1 L&T should get the opportunity @singhvivek141, these MoD guys have stalled so many critical projects in last 2 decades. I hope these Baboos don't go for imports again. XLUUVs production should also be on priority. singhvivek141 1
singhvivek141 Posted June 1 Posted June 1 (edited) 2 hours ago, rangeelaraja said: Bhai, you dint get my question in the above post. What I am asking is the fact that we are taking export orders for this - does it indicate we are self sufficient and have very large numbers for all our needs and 2 front scenario. Otherwise why would India open up the export market to so many countries if it doesn’t already have or can meet its own needs for a 2-3 month high intense conflict ? Bhai, exports numbers we can meet. Most of the orders are for x, y number of missiles...maybe 80-120 something. We currently have capacity to produce 60 odd missiles a year for Brahmos..so we can complete those orders in 2-3 years.. But in case of war..when we may have to use 10 brahmos a day...we may end up spendinh with 300 odd brahmos in a month. And our capacity to build is maybe 10 or 20 brahmos per month (stretch is to 40 if both Hyd and Lucknow complex operate at optimum capacity). Thats the replenishment rate I am talking about. In an ideal situation...India should have atkeast 5-6 complexes prodcuing atleast 30 odd Brahmos per month. Edited June 1 by singhvivek141
rangeelaraja Posted June 1 Author Posted June 1 (edited) 1 hour ago, Lone Wolf said: Brahmos Aerospace being a joint venture of Russia and India so most of fortune they earn through its sales goes towards it and is used in further R&D stuff. More orders would mean more capital for the venture and its a good thing. But yes Russian permission is also required. For Pakistan we have adequate numbers and I suppose DRDO will work on other indigenous conventional platforms as well. LRLACM I hope gets ordered in sufficient numbers once its Jupiter trails are finished as it is a great conventional strike platform vis a vis China. As of now only nuclear detterance can deter Chinese. Conventional mai we don't have much to stand against their industrial might. Solar only produces 2-3 Pralay missiles per month. War time India would rely on import heavily. Pakistan ke against chal jaayega kam but not a Chance against China. After 1st week of a high intensity conflict we would be giving threats of nuclear strikes. Pookistan nuke doctrine would be adopted. India has been very secretive about its missile stock ( for good reasons, to keep the enemy guessing). Do you really think we would not have enough stock for 2 months of intense fighting knowing very well that China has a dedicated rocket force regiment ? I seriously doubt. If Iran can stock in 1000s - I am sure India's industrial capacity is many times Iran's ( although can't compare because they are in survival mode and India tends to be lethargic and complacent ). Do you know why we so successfully defended everything Pak threw at us and everything got intercepted or shot down ? Because we had preparedness for China's rocket force barrage ....thats why even though Pak fired 100s of missiles according to PM and our own senior leadership's admission - we defended everything. So this gives me confidence that we have adequate stock for an offensive 2-3 month high intensity conflict if it comes to that. The challenge against China that no on ever talks about is actually even bigger - which is that : Our high population centers and heavy civilian infrastructure is barely a few 100 kms from the LAC with China. Where as China's high population centers are on the far EAST - 1000s of kms from LAC. This puts us at a distinct disadvantage - where they can heavily disrupt public life in India using shorter range missiles - we cannot. Because they give a crap about people of Tibet. In such a situation - our only option to strangulate them is doing at the Malacca strait to China - what Iran has being doing to the world at Hormuz. China's navy is a pigmy compared to strength and brute force of the US navy and its dozen carrier strike groups. If Iran with its small navy could block that. India with its navy can surely can screw China at the Malacca strait. Edited June 1 by rangeelaraja
rangeelaraja Posted June 1 Author Posted June 1 10 minutes ago, singhvivek141 said: Bhai, exports numbers we can meet. Most of the orders are for x, y number of missiles...maybe 80-120 something. We currently have capacity to produce 60 odd missiles a year for Brahmos..so we can complete those orders in 2-3 years.. But in case of war..when we may have to use 10 brahmos a day...we may end up spendinh with 300 odd brahmos in a month. And our capacity to build is maybe 10 or 20 brahmos per month (stretch is to 40 if both Hyd and Lucknow complex operate at optimum capacity). Thats the replenishment rate I am talking about. In an ideal situation...India should have atkeast 5-6 complexes prodcuing atleast 30 odd Brahmos per month. Brahmos has been in production for 20+ years ...I know new variants have come along last few years....but don't you think for such a long period of time we would not have a cumulative stock ( across navy, army and airforce ) of over 1200+ ? ( works out to be 1200/20, 60 missiles a year ....5 a month ). I think we easily have 1200+ Brahmos across the 3 services. Given that it is almost non-interceptable due to its 3+ mach speed, each brahmos is guaranteed 1 massive hit. I think kaafi hai. I hope. Plus we are ramping up.
Lone Wolf Posted June 1 Posted June 1 (edited) 3 hours ago, rangeelaraja said: India has been very secretive about its missile stock ( for good reasons, to keep the enemy guessing). Do you really think we would not have enough stock for 2 months of intense fighting knowing very well that China has a dedicated rocket force regiment ? I seriously doubt. If Iran can stock in 1000s - I am sure India's industrial capacity is many times Iran's ( although can't compare because they are in survival mode and India tends to be lethargic and complacent ). Do you know why we so successfully defended everything Pak threw at us and everything got intercepted or shot down ? Because we had preparedness for China's rocket force barrage ....thats why even though Pak fired 100s of missiles according to PM and our own senior leadership's admission - we defended everything. So this gives me confidence that we have adequate stock for an offensive 2-3 month high intensity conflict if it comes to that. The challenge against China that no on ever talks about is actually even bigger - which is that : Our high population centers and heavy civilian infrastructure is barely a few 100 kms from the LAC with China. Where as China's high population centers are on the far EAST - 1000s of kms from LAC. This puts us at a distinct disadvantage - where they can heavily disrupt public life in India using shorter range missiles - we cannot. Because they give a crap about people of Tibet. In such a situation - our only option to strangulate them is doing at the Malacca strait to China - what Iran has being doing to the world at Hormuz. China's navy is a pigmy compared to strength and brute force of the US navy and its dozen carrier strike groups. If Iran with its small navy could block that. India with its navy can surely can screw China at the Malacca strait. There is always Sunda Straits and Lombok strait for them in Wartime and they would bypass us easily and their Multiple SSN's and CBG's would leave any attempt of blockade untenable for long. Also not sure South East Asian countries would support us in this venture. In future when India is a industrial powerhouse and has a completely fortified IOR then perhaps. Right now we are stretched thin. Conventional Underwater capabilities are Pookistan level. Import dependency is pretty high. As per Navy chief we have a long way to go in developing our own components forget about subcomponents. IAF will be practically grounded in case conflict lasts beyond a week. We are struggling with A2A missiles, Indigenous A2S missiles are not getting inducted and struck in trails. We will ask French to give us few hundred scalp missiles at exorbitant prices like we are doing and few hundred Rampage rockets from Israel. This is the current military doctrine. As you said our population centres are close to the border and their shorter ranged missiles and drones are enough without even resorting to heavy hitters. SEAD/DEAD would be walk in the park stuff for them. India doesn't wants to anger the dragon yet... Selmon bhoi ki movie ki script and name change karwa diya literally. Galwan to Matrabhoomi and movie won't have any mention of China or the clash and instead it would be a romantic movie instead of orginal plans about a war movie. Chinese outlets are boasting themselves and calling Indian government good friends for doing all this. Edited June 1 by Lone Wolf
Lone Wolf Posted June 1 Posted June 1 (edited) 3 hours ago, rangeelaraja said: each brahmos is guaranteed 1 massive hit. No to completely destroy an airbase it would need roughly 12-15 Brahmos at least... More if it is smaller air launched version which is roughly 2.5 ton with a smaller payload. Only 50 MKI's are designed to carry them and can carry 1 at a time. It is still a anti ship missile by design and a land based salvo launch is probably better suited. But ALCM are much much harder to intercept. Edited June 1 by Lone Wolf
singhvivek141 Posted June 1 Posted June 1 4 hours ago, rangeelaraja said: Brahmos has been in production for 20+ years ...I know new variants have come along last few years....but don't you think for such a long period of time we would not have a cumulative stock ( across navy, army and airforce ) of over 1200+ ? ( works out to be 1200/20, 60 missiles a year ....5 a month ). I think we easily have 1200+ Brahmos across the 3 services. Given that it is almost non-interceptable due to its 3+ mach speed, each brahmos is guaranteed 1 massive hit. I think kaafi hai. I hope. Plus we are ramping up. Yar Pakistan ke liye to kaafi hai, 100-200 Brahmos will obliterate Pakistan's assets. But the main adversary is China...thats where the massive stockpiles will help. Our aim should be to have strategic missiles atleast close to thousand (this includes Agni, Shaurya, Sagarika/K15 & other K series missiles). These long range vectors will target Chinese based MIC's and other criticial military assets which are far for our cruise missiles. Other missiles like subsonic, supersonic and hypersonic cruise missiles which are the front line of our attack (like Nirbhay, Brahmos, Pralay etc) should be in tens of thousands collectively. We need these missiles to obliterate the Chinese bases near LAC, and as not all will be successful, we need to have reserves.
singhvivek141 Posted June 1 Posted June 1 1 hour ago, Lone Wolf said: There is always Sunda Straits and Lombok strait for them in Wartime and they would bypass us easily and their Multiple SSN's and CBG's would leave any attempt of blockade untenable for long. Also not sure South East Asian countries would support us in this venture. In future when India is a industrial powerhouse and has a completely fortified IOR then perhaps. Right now we are stretched thin. Conventional Underwater capabilities are Pookistan level. Import dependency is pretty high. As per Navy chief we have a long way to go in developing our own components forget about subcomponents. IAF will be practically grounded in case conflict lasts beyond a week. We are struggling with A2A missiles, Indigenous A2S missiles are not getting inducted and struck in trails. We will ask French to give us few hundred scalp missiles at exorbitant prices like we are doing and few hundred Rampage rockets from Israel. This is the current military doctrine. As you said our population centres are close to the border and their shorter ranged missiles and drones are enough without even resorting to heavy hitters. SEAD/DEAD would be walk in the park stuff for them. India doesn't wants to anger the dragon yet... Selmon bhoi ki movie ki script and name change karwa diya literally. Galwan to Matrabhoomi and movie won't have any mention of China or the clash and instead it would be a romantic movie instead of orginal plans about a war movie. Chinese outlets are boasting themselves and calling Indian government good friends for doing all this. Sunda Strait is out of question...Chinese Navy cant use it to traverse heavy ships or submarines (submerged). Its depth is extremely shallow, full of volcanic activities and if caught under that, the ships wont even have time to turn back as the strip is extremely narrow. Lambok Strait is a viable option, although it will add 2000 to 3000 extra miles for each ship.
singhvivek141 Posted June 1 Posted June 1 6 hours ago, Lone Wolf said: L&T should get the opportunity @singhvivek141, these MoD guys have stalled so many critical projects in last 2 decades. I hope these Baboos don't go for imports again. XLUUVs production should also be on priority. I think Jalkapi project is for this only. Also, last year, a 250 Crore contract was given to Kalyani Group to build such unmanned sub systems, delivery is by Nov 2026 Lone Wolf 1
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