rangeelaraja Posted June 13 Author Posted June 13 27 minutes ago, singhvivek141 said: China also got unprecedented support from US in 1960s, after the China USSR conflict...Post which US jumped in and threatened to Nuke USSR. After that China was in good books of US and they used it as a cheap factory yard to manufacture their goods and support via arms, to create a threat against the backyard of USSR. India on the other hand was bitten by the bug of socialism and communism. Instead of working on the development, we creeped into the dark world of license raj and other British era bureaucratic laws which has kept us fractured and divided even now. That was in the 1970s...when US wanted to split the USSR/China communist block. President Nixon visited China in 1972 ... But it was more for economic partnership and commerce....where china agrees to contract manufacture for american firms and its a win win for both countries....sort of to wean china from USSR influence by offering them economic incentive. China was never really in the good books of US...it was more out of intent ot spilting USSR/China ...which they did manage to a certain extent. For a brief periods in the 1980s, US did military sales to China, but they never trusted communist china to share anything from a military /weapons perspective after 1989.
singhvivek141 Posted June 13 Posted June 13 (edited) @Lone Wolf, @rangeelaraja, @G_B_ Below reports says that the discussion between India & Russia for Su57 variant is in advanced stage...with few units off the shelf and others being assembled/co developed in India...just like Su30MKI. IAF with its struggles with falling squadron strength and lack of 5th gen option has no way but to procure more jets. Tejas mk1a is in doldruma, Tejas mk2 and Ghatak are atleast 3 years away while AMCA is easily a decade away. https://www.wionews.com/india-news/russia-proposes-two-seater-su-57e-variant-and-weapons-integration-to-india-1781080603295 Edited June 13 by singhvivek141 rangeelaraja 1
jf1gp_1 Posted June 14 Posted June 14 17 hours ago, singhvivek141 said: @Lone Wolf, @rangeelaraja, @G_B_ Below reports says that the discussion between India & Russia for Su57 variant is in advanced stage...with few units off the shelf and others being assembled/co developed in India...just like Su30MKI. IAF with its struggles with falling squadron strength and lack of 5th gen option has no way but to procure more jets. Tejas mk1a is in doldruma, Tejas mk2 and Ghatak are atleast 3 years away while AMCA is easily a decade away. https://www.wionews.com/india-news/russia-proposes-two-seater-su-57e-variant-and-weapons-integration-to-india-1781080603295 Given how Govt of India works i suggest we buy everything off the shelf like Rafale. For those who feel govt work is slow and takes long time but have never dealt with govt officials, i have to warn you. Its worth then your idea of inefficiency. I don't think i have come across any Govt Official who is thinking about country.
singhvivek141 Posted June 14 Posted June 14 (edited) 1 hour ago, jf1gp_1 said: Given how Govt of India works i suggest we buy everything off the shelf like Rafale. For those who feel govt work is slow and takes long time but have never dealt with govt officials, i have to warn you. Its worth then your idea of inefficiency. I don't think i have come across any Govt Official who is thinking about country. Problem is 1. Babus don't have any incentive to do their work better, instead we have seen officials who try to be honest, to face allegations, threats and other media shaming. While those who just keep their head down and follow the ghisa pita process are safe and secure. 2. Zero accountability,in private sector it leads to a demotion or even firing from a job..in babu giri it's just a transfer from one sector to other. Even a suspension is a paid vacation. Without the fear of consequences, they all don't care. 3. Zero competition...as there is no accountability, and no incentive to improve...the babus continue to get their salary by doing bare minimum. When a high performing officials sees that his promotion/hike is same to a official who does absolutely nothing...all the motivation goes in the drain, they start looking inwards instead of the whole. Entire system is broken and fractured. That's why those who can, they move away for a better life. BMC is the richest municipal body in the whole country, yet their maintenance is filthy and garbage.....in comparison, Indore or Vizag are able to maintain the city better coz their municipal bodies have put efforts to improve. Edited June 14 by singhvivek141 jf1gp_1 1
singhvivek141 Posted June 14 Posted June 14 German media predicting the contract signature date by Aug 2026. Arey jab lena hi hai, to get it done soon. rangeelaraja and Lone Wolf 2
Lone Wolf Posted June 14 Posted June 14 (edited) Through mass production, rocket cost can be brought down. 1.5 cr per unit rn. 20k of these please Edited June 14 by Lone Wolf
Lone Wolf Posted June 14 Posted June 14 43 minutes ago, singhvivek141 said: German media predicting the contract signature date by Aug 2026. Arey jab lena hi hai, to get it done soon. Idrw walo ka data outdated hi rehta hai.. India has 3-4 active SSBN's China has 9-12 active SSN's 6 SSBNs + 5 SSGNs Over 60 destroyers and 50 frigates are active in PLAN
rangeelaraja Posted June 15 Author Posted June 15 8 hours ago, singhvivek141 said: German media predicting the contract signature date by Aug 2026. Arey jab lena hi hai, to get it done soon. I did a further deep dive comparision -- because both China and India carry old inventory. When queried for ONLY the most modern destroyers in each ones fleet ( also included Japan and South Korea ).... the comparision is worse than 45 (China ) to 7 (India ) Both the Kolkata and Vishakapatnam have 48 VLS slots which is less than 50 % of the VLS capacity as each of China's Type 055 ( 112 ) This brings the total missile disparity to 10:1. ( 3360 vs. 336 ) ...as far as the most modern fleet of destroyers. We have a fixed Defense to Attack ratio of 2:1 for the Kolkata and Vishakapatnam class. 32 of 48 VLS are Barak-8 defensive SAM. Remaining 16 are Brahmos naval variants We can be in serious danger in a saturation attack. Four-Nation Modern Detroyer Fleet Comparison China Japan South Korea India Top-Tier Modern Ships 45 (Type 055 / 052D) 12 (Aegis + Asahi/Akizuki) 4 (KDX-III Batches I & II) 7 (Visakhapatnam / Kolkata) Flagship Tonnage ~13,000 tons (Type 055) ~10,250 tons (Maya) ~11,500 tons (Jeongjo) ~7,400 tons Flagship VLS Count 112 cells 96 cells 128 cells (Batch I) / 88 cells (Batch II) 48 cells Combat/Radar Core Type 346B AESA US Aegis / AN/SPY-1 & SPY-6 US Aegis + Local Systems Elta EL/M-2248 AESA Total Fleet VLS Cells 3,360 cells 832 cells 472 cells 336 cells I do know that India is working on 10-12 Project-18 class destroyers, that can host a record 144 VLS /missile cells. . This would an absolute game changer for the Indian navy if we can fast track their construction within the next 5 years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_18-class_destroyer
Lone Wolf Posted June 15 Posted June 15 27 minutes ago, rangeelaraja said: I did a further deep dive comparision -- because both China and India carry old inventory. When queried for ONLY the most modern destroyers in each ones fleet ( also included Japan and South Korea ).... the comparision is worse than 45 (China ) to 7 (India ) Both the Kolkata and Vishakapatnam have 48 VLS slots which is less than 50 % of the VLS capacity as each of China's Type 055 ( 112 ) This brings the total missile disparity to 10:1. ( 3360 vs. 336 ) ...as far as the most modern fleet of destroyers. We have a fixed Defense to Attack ratio of 2:1 for the Kolkata and Vishakapatnam class. 32 of 48 VLS are Barak-8 defensive SAM. Remaining 16 are Brahmos naval variants We can be in serious danger in a saturation attack. Four-Nation Modern Detroyer Fleet Comparison China Japan South Korea India Top-Tier Modern Ships 45 (Type 055 / 052D) 12 (Aegis + Asahi/Akizuki) 4 (KDX-III Batches I & II) 7 (Visakhapatnam / Kolkata) Flagship Tonnage ~13,000 tons (Type 055) ~10,250 tons (Maya) ~11,500 tons (Jeongjo) ~7,400 tons Flagship VLS Count 112 cells 96 cells 128 cells (Batch I) / 88 cells (Batch II) 48 cells Combat/Radar Core Type 346B AESA US Aegis / AN/SPY-1 & SPY-6 US Aegis + Local Systems Elta EL/M-2248 AESA Total Fleet VLS Cells 3,360 cells 832 cells 472 cells 336 cells I do know that India is working on 10-12 Project-18 class destroyers, that can host a record 144 VLS /missile cells. . This would an absolute game changer for the Indian navy if we can fast track their construction within the next 5 years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_18-class_destroyer P18 is in design phase... Earliest one to arrive probably would be in late 2030's as of now.
singhvivek141 Posted June 15 Posted June 15 (edited) 3 hours ago, rangeelaraja said: I did a further deep dive comparision -- because both China and India carry old inventory. When queried for ONLY the most modern destroyers in each ones fleet ( also included Japan and South Korea ).... the comparision is worse than 45 (China ) to 7 (India ) Both the Kolkata and Vishakapatnam have 48 VLS slots which is less than 50 % of the VLS capacity as each of China's Type 055 ( 112 ) This brings the total missile disparity to 10:1. ( 3360 vs. 336 ) ...as far as the most modern fleet of destroyers. We have a fixed Defense to Attack ratio of 2:1 for the Kolkata and Vishakapatnam class. 32 of 48 VLS are Barak-8 defensive SAM. Remaining 16 are Brahmos naval variants We can be in serious danger in a saturation attack. Four-Nation Modern Detroyer Fleet Comparison China Japan South Korea India Top-Tier Modern Ships 45 (Type 055 / 052D) 12 (Aegis + Asahi/Akizuki) 4 (KDX-III Batches I & II) 7 (Visakhapatnam / Kolkata) Flagship Tonnage ~13,000 tons (Type 055) ~10,250 tons (Maya) ~11,500 tons (Jeongjo) ~7,400 tons Flagship VLS Count 112 cells 96 cells 128 cells (Batch I) / 88 cells (Batch II) 48 cells Combat/Radar Core Type 346B AESA US Aegis / AN/SPY-1 & SPY-6 US Aegis + Local Systems Elta EL/M-2248 AESA Total Fleet VLS Cells 3,360 cells 832 cells 472 cells 336 cells I do know that India is working on 10-12 Project-18 class destroyers, that can host a record 144 VLS /missile cells. . This would an absolute game changer for the Indian navy if we can fast track their construction within the next 5 years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_18-class_destroyer Vishakhapatnam class is comparable to 054 class destroyers of China. 055 class is where they have massive leap ahead, and we are planning to fulfill that gap with P18 class destroyers. Chinese Navy is at par (if not bigger) than US Navy...we are nowhere in the game right now. First reason is obviously our budget pocket, its tiny in comparison to China as our economy is small. Thats why delhi class destroyers which were inducted in late 90s are still being used. Second reason is lack of shipyards, we have only handful of them...China has that in massive numbers and hence at any given time, they are constructing ships and vessels at a rate which we cant even imagine. Whats the point of such high coastline when we have just handful of shipyards to construct vessels. For long, Navy has operated as a neglected middle child. While China understood the important of Navy, we slept over it for decades and kept looking towards Pakistan. Edited June 15 by singhvivek141 rangeelaraja 1
Lone Wolf Posted June 15 Posted June 15 Vishnu Som is caught in between an online war with Indian defence twitter.. said some pretty interesting things in his podcast too. As per him India has already joined FCAS and wants India to let go of Tejas program
rangeelaraja Posted June 15 Author Posted June 15 6 hours ago, singhvivek141 said: Vishakhapatnam class is comparable to 054 class destroyers of China. 055 class is where they have massive leap ahead, and we are planning to fulfill that gap with P18 class destroyers. Chinese Navy is at par (if not bigger) than US Navy...we are nowhere in the game right now. For long, Navy has operated as a neglected middle child. While China understood the important of Navy, we slept over it for decades and kept looking towards Pakistan. Chinese navy is not remotely close to US navy to be honest. They have more smaller vessels inflating their numbers. Real capabilities /size for naval strength is not done by bean counting number of vessels but by gross tonnage. A single large US aircraft carrier outweighs many Chinese frigates put together. US has 10-11 massive aircraft carriers for power projection - and experience dominating seas for decades. China has not demonstrated capability to project naval power even outside of South China sea. Rank Country Total Tonnage 1 United States 8,265,799 2 China 3,192,411 3 Russia 1,426,539 4 Japan 798,062 5 India 631,989 6 France 487,471 7 South Korea 427,946 8 United Kingdom 406,308 9 Italy 387,892 10 Turkey 349,739 India's major military pressures were due to unsettled land borders with Pakistan and China - so navy was not really a top priority. Last 10 years we have begun to realize the need to safeguard are maritime front and develop sea denial capabilties for Malacca strait. India needs to up its military budget to 4 -5 % of GDP and involve private enterprise to go full tilt into manufacturing.
Lone Wolf Posted June 15 Posted June 15 Hari om...Finally time to go to temple... Now order 5000 of these please. Absolute Thing of Beauty LRLACM/Nirbhay
Lone Wolf Posted June 15 Posted June 15 (edited) 57 minutes ago, rangeelaraja said: Last 10 years we have begun to realize the need to safeguard are maritime front and develop sea denial capabilties for Malacca strait Last 10 years mai koi dhang ka order sign nhi hua hai bhai.. these are all older orders getting completed. P75I ka toh legendary delay hua hai Edited June 15 by Lone Wolf
Lone Wolf Posted June 15 Posted June 15 DRDO low key only competent organisation left in the country with the budget it has. Canister launch test this time. Mass produce and export to Greece or Cyprus. Turkroaches would get some burn finally
rangeelaraja Posted June 15 Author Posted June 15 10 minutes ago, Lone Wolf said: Last 10 years mai koi dhang ka order sign nhi hua hai bhai.. these are all older orders getting completed. P75I ka toh legendary delay hua hai Project 17A ( 7 Nilgiri Class stealth frigates ) 6 NGMV from Cochin Shipyard....this was signed 2023 end or begining 2024, not sure of the exact timelines. More than a dozen anti submarine warfare shallow water craft..... I believe based on an India today report I read recently...50-54 warships that were ordered post 2016 are under construction
rangeelaraja Posted June 15 Author Posted June 15 Who is this Pavneet Singh guy.....he kept showing up on my feed and I had to block it. Sounds like a very poor man's Aadi Achint. Made up theories.
Lone Wolf Posted June 15 Posted June 15 (edited) 2 hours ago, rangeelaraja said: Project 17A ( 7 Nilgiri Class stealth frigates ) 6 NGMV from Cochin Shipyard....this was signed 2023 end or begining 2024, not sure of the exact timelines. More than a dozen anti submarine warfare shallow water craft..... I believe based on an India today report I read recently...50-54 warships that were ordered post 2016 are under construction Project 17A was signed in 2015 after completion of its design phase which itself takes a while. Bhai itna superfast shipbuilding nahi hota that you will sign in 2023 and it will start rolling out by next year. It takes a decade minimum to complete. P17a frigates also was given on 2015 Project 15b (last destroyer order) were given on 2011. It's 2026 and Project 18 orders will likely be given in late 2028 or early 2029. Project 17b has been delayed to late next year at least for now. IN's last Minesweepers have been retired and it's been nearly 25 years since last order was given Edited June 15 by Lone Wolf
IndianRenegade Posted June 15 Posted June 15 (edited) 23 hours ago, Lone Wolf said: Through mass production, rocket cost can be brought down. 1.5 cr per unit rn. 20k of these please But but.. why order pinakas when you can screwdrivergiri a failed Israeli product? If the report is true, officials involved should be hung for treason. Edited June 15 by IndianRenegade Lone Wolf 1
Lone Wolf Posted June 15 Posted June 15 2 minutes ago, IndianRenegade said: But but.. why order pinakas when you can screwdrivergiri an failed Israeli product? If the report is true, officials involved should be hung for treason. Saw it a while ago.. defense analysts were always keeping an eye on NIBE which is basically a dodgy type corporation with no exposure nor experience to make or assemble anything military grade. But it seems it was a deeper scam. Super Fast induction was always dodgy even if it was a paint job. Israelis sabotaging Pinaka in cahoots with corrupt Import lobby.
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