Ok, We are 274 runs away from the Asia cup

[fineleg]

I am absolutely shattered by this loss... The Kitply cup final defeat didnt even pinch, but this one was like a dagger stabbed right through the middle of the torso. In the last many months, I am not used to the Indian team losing so badly, which is probably why this is so painful. P.S: Finey's posts have become so ridiculous, its not even funny anymore. While the rest of us live with the hope of success, Finey alone lives with the fear of failure.

Honestly MM, is this defeat such a "surprise" to you that its all this dagger and stuff? There were many on this forum who had listed SL as clear favorites to beat India in the Final, and even in this very same thread: shwetabh says "We'll fold up like a pack of cards - the target is around 70 too many." - maybe he said it genuine, maybe in sarcasm. But if you read other threads, not many were saying, "ok, its only 274, we'll breeze through it now". Maybe you thought the "old ghosts have been exorcised" and we are a brand new outfit which will professionally and clinically and methodically chew through such scores in Finals. And becos you thought we are now this "transformed and 70%-Aussie-like unit" (I wonder if one CwB series brought you that thought???), you have all this dagger stuff now. If you answer that question: How many Finals (ODI finals, i dont think i need to tell you ODI != T20) have we won in last many years? How did you come to the conclusion that things have already changed about Team India in Finals based on one CwB series only?

[fineleg]

By the way, MM, I hope u realize this is nothing personal against u. I am questioning your line of thinking, thats all, and I know ur doing the same of me. Suffice it to say each and every person's brain is wired differently (predz may be tempted to jump in with "jokes", but neverthless) Cheers.

[Gambit]

You won't be able to understand or comprehend a concept, a feeling that binds most of us here together and makes us believe. It's called hope.

[Ram]

There's no use trying to explain to you, Finey.

[fineleg]

You won't be able to understand or comprehend a concept, a feeling that binds most of us here together and makes us believe. It's called hope.

Yes, and its not without hope that I go and spend loads of time hunting for free links, and 70% of the time when unsuccessful in trying to get freebies, I shell out actual bucks and then sit at late night or wake up at eery times, and watch these matches. So, I do understand the hope bit, without which I dont have to waste both time and money and deprive myself of sleep to watch these matches. (I mean I do have to work and attend meetings and produce deliverables to make a living, can't escape that, so this cricket has to be beyond that based purely on passion and hope). But, does that mean one should not call a situation as one sees it? Based on EXPERIENCE, it was apparent that when India had to chase 274 in a Final against SL, that YES - there is a chance to win 25-30%. I saw 25-30%, I guess lots of you saw a 85-90% chance of victory. And, when Ajanta Mendis took out the 2 or 3 quick wickets (his first 2-3 out of his tally of 6), then those percentages plummeted down to like 10-15% chance of recovery in a chase in the Finals. Its in those situations, I feel ya'll sometimes fool urself saying, Irfan will win us this match, Dhoni and Irfan will put a 100 run partnership now. Almost, like ur writing out a victory script, and they are going to enact it for you!

[fineleg]

and, MM, you may still think the same after reading my above post. Thats fine, all I wanted to do is to clarify that I wasn't trying to pull you down, but just questioning your line of thinking.

[Holysmoke]

Yes, and its not without hope that I go and spend loads of time hunting for free links, and 70% of the time when unsuccessful in trying to get freebies, I shell out actual bucks and then sit at late night or wake up at eery times, and watch these matches. So, I do understand the hope bit, without which I dont have to waste both time and money and deprive myself of sleep to watch these matches. (I mean I do have to work and attend meetings and produce deliverables to make a living, can't escape that, so this cricket has to be beyond that based purely on passion and hope). But, does that mean one should not call a situation as one sees it? Based on EXPERIENCE, it was apparent that when India had to chase 274 in a Final against SL, that YES - there is a chance to win 25-30%. I saw 25-30%, I guess lots of you saw a 85-90% chance of victory. And, when Ajanta Mendis took out the 2 or 3 quick wickets (his first 2-3 out of his tally of 6), then those percentages plummeted down to like 10-15% chance of recovery in a chase in the Finals. Its in those situations, I feel ya'll sometimes fool urself saying, Irfan will win us this match, Dhoni and Irfan will put a 100 run partnership now. Almost, like ur writing out a victory script, and they are going to enact it for you!

passion != hope

[fineleg]

passion != hope

i never said it is equal. thats why i wrote passion and hope. i have both, not either-or. what i dont do is "believe our ODI team *will* pull it off, when the odds are stacked against it". I hope they do, but I fear they wont mostly pull through, since they have repeatedly let us down in the past. If the team keeps showing some level of consistency in winning finals, this will change. But the belief is less, since the team has undeniably repeatedly let down fans in ODI Finals.The team has to change it, and then fans will start believing. Like Jerry McGuire said "Show me the money", Team India needs to "Show the wins"

[Holysmoke]

Yes, and its not without hope that I go and spend loads of time hunting for free links, and 70% of the time when unsuccessful in trying to get freebies, I shell out actual bucks and then sit at late night or wake up at eery times, and watch these matches.

Thats passion, not hope.

I fear they wont mostly pull through, since they have repeatedly let us down in the past. Like Jerry McGuire said "Show me the money", Team India needs to "Show the wins"

"Hope is a belief in a positive outcome related to events and circumstances"

[The Outsider]

The way I see it, I don't find anything inherently wrong in being slightly pessimistic or optimistic. For example in this final I always thought Sri Lanka were the stronger side in these conditions and would prevail, but I can also understand where the optimism of Sriram might have come from - our batting was doing well and we have generally been playing good cricket over the past few months in all formats. I think the problem arises when someone just goes on a rampage with the negativity. I would usually post my prediction and explain why I thought we did not have a good chance but hardly create thread after thread or post after post saying things like, "look the Brahmastra failed", or "Tendulkar choked again" etc. etc. It might be a way for some to get their frustration out but it's bound to irk a lot of people as well.

[Holysmoke]

I would usually post my prediction and explain why I thought we did not have a good chance but hardly create thread after thread or post after post saying things like' date=' "look the Brahmastra failed", or "Tendulkar choked again" etc. etc. It might be a way for some to get their frustration out but it's bound to irk a lot of people as well.[/quote'] Exactly. I didnt expect India to win, and I expected Mendis to create havoc. But I dont feast on India's losses. Some have a ball when India loses, even though they were "hoping" for India to win. Its as if its a personal victory that India lost, and the pessimism is/was warranted.

[Ram]

When I read Shwetabh’s comment that “ We will fall 70 runs short’, I took it seriously, coz he isn’t someone given to making rash comments without thought. But what is unbelievably irritating is when someone starts these ‘See, I told you so. We are utter waste’ threads, AFTER the event, like Finey does. If you are brave enough, why don’t you state your opinion 2 hours ahead of the match? There are umpteen number of upbeat comments made by me and by other posters, hours before the match. Where were your rebuttals then? It is really stupid to bump these posts and start all the bashing threads, once we have lost. If you want to be taken seriously, start these threads before the match, not after.

[The Outsider]

^ And heck none of us here is some international level expert of the game anyways, and even if there would have been some it's a sport and moreover it's cricket and no one can get their predictions spot on or anything like that. It's not as if anyone of us here has a 100% record of getting their readings and predictions right - it's just a bit of fun to post your thoughts and reading of the game.

[Ram]

Two things that I have finally realized in the last 24 hours.. 1) We are still a long way away from being a world-beating ODI team 2) Yuvi is absolutely useless against quality spin in pressure situations. Two events stand vivdly in memory: The Sydney test 5th day, when he capitulated so easily against Symonds and yesterday's shocker against Mendis.

[flamy]

fineleg, it's all very well to have realistic expectations. I get that. But, what I absolutely despise is the gloating when India loses. The "See, I told you so :giggle:" attitude.

[fineleg]

Exactly. I didnt expect India to win' date=' and I expected Mendis to create havoc. But I dont feast on India's losses. Some have a ball when India loses, even though they were "hoping" for India to win. Its as if its a personal victory that India lost, and the pessimism is/was warranted.[/quote'] Holy, Wrong. There is no feasting on India's losses. I feel sad that India lost. The feasting is only on fans who beat up people who predicted that this match is most likely a goner when SL scored a relatively big total. There are people who made fun of the pessimism and said it was NOT warranted. Thats the people to whom some of us are saying that yes, the pessimism was warranted, and do you see why? atleast now?

When I read Shwetabh’s comment that “ We will fall 70 runs short’, I took it seriously, coz he isn’t someone given to making rash comments without thought. But what is unbelievably irritating is when someone starts these ‘See, I told you so. We are utter waste’ threads, AFTER the event, like Finey does. If you are brave enough, why don’t you state your opinion 2 hours ahead of the match? There are umpteen number of upbeat comments made by me and by other posters, hours before the match. Where were your rebuttals then? It is really stupid to bump these posts and start all the bashing threads, once we have lost. If you want to be taken seriously, start these threads before the match, not after.

MM, My opinion was stated 1. Before the match (refer threads/posts) and 2. During SL innings as well. So, it was stated well before Indian collapse started, and well before these threads of yours were written.

Two things that I have finally realized in the last 24 hours.. 1) We are still a long way away from being a world-beating ODI team 2) Yuvi is absolutely useless against quality spin in pressure situations. Two events stand vivdly in memory: The Sydney test 5th day, when he capitulated so easily against Symonds and yesterday's shocker against Mendis.

You realized #1 finally. Whenever I tried to tell that to you, you felt we are closer than I think to being a world-beating team. Now, in the "last 24 hours" you realize "We are still a long way away from being a world-beating ODI team"... Regarding Yuvi against spin - again, you feel Yuvi will be a super Test batsman and strong backbone of Indian Test lineup - you stated this many times. Again, I feel Yuvi will struggle to dominate Tests becos of his utter cluelessness against spinners. Against pace, he has talent, but temparament is a different question.

[fineleg]

flamy, The "see I told u so" is becos of the beating I get when I say my predictions. I get ridiculed for saying India will not have good chance in the Final and get labeled as "not having the cricketing knowledge" to see that Sehwag and Gambhir are in super form, Yuvi is a super duper bat, and Rohit Sharma is the next best thing since sliced bread - I am chided for not being able to have the "perception and vision" to see this, and then this is only a reaction to that. I want to give back the "beating" that I got. Thats all. Peace. Case in point: MM says he realizes in last 24 hours that "We are still a long way away from being a world-beating ODI team". Did it really need last 24 hours to realize this? I am not picking on MM. Atleast MM realized it in the last 24 hours. There are many on ICF who still think we are "this close" to being a world-beating team. Truth of the matter is we (Indian team) still can win in Ideal conditions, but struggle in less than optimal conditions. And we are still not well rounded in batting and bowling to be world beaters. And, we are long ways off from handling pressure clinically.

[punjabi_khota]

Holy, Wrong. There is no feasting on India's losses. I feel sad that India lost. The feasting is only on fans who beat up people who predicted that this match is most likely a goner when SL scored a relatively big total. There are people who made fun of the pessimism and said it was NOT warranted. Thats the people to whom some of us are saying that yes, the pessimism was warranted, and do you see why? atleast now? MM, My opinion was stated 1. Before the match (refer threads/posts) and 2. During SL innings as well. So, it was stated well before Indian collapse started, and well before these threads of yours were written. You realized #1 finally. Whenever I tried to tell that to you, you felt we are closer than I think to being a world-beating team. Now, in the "last 24 hours" you realize "We are still a long way away from being a world-beating ODI team"... Regarding Yuvi against spin - again, you feel Yuvi will be a super Test batsman and strong backbone of Indian Test lineup - you stated this many times. Again, I feel Yuvi will struggle to dominate Tests becos of his utter cluelessness against spinners. Against pace, he has talent, but temparament is a different question.

Seeing how Australia,SA,WI,PAK,BD lack ANY quality spin option for near future, I wouldn't discount his chances to be successful in tests the way he plays currently. The only quality spinners I can think off right now are Murali,maybe Mendis, Vettori and Monty. And I am not too sure about Monty too. Ofcourse, if Yuvi improves his play against spin, he will be good bet against all teams then. Regarding his temperament against pace, Karachi test century when Asif wreaked Havoc should mean something, shouldn't it ? And so should the blinder he played in Lahore in 2004, when Gul had the ball talking.

[fineleg]

Seeing how Australia' date='SA,WI,PAK,BD lack ANY quality spin option for near future, I wouldn't discount his chances to be successful in tests the way he plays currently. The only quality spinners I can think off right now are Murali,maybe Mendis, Vettori and Monty. And I am not too sure about Monty too. Ofcourse, if Yuvi improves his play against spin, he will be good bet against all teams then. Regarding his temperament against pace, Karachi test century when Asif wreaked Havoc should mean something, shouldn't it ? And so should the blinder he played in Lahore in 2004, when Gul had the ball talking.

p_k, Firstly, YS does not need world class spinners. If symmonds can trouble him, then even regular spinners can. Second, i havent forgotten lahore 2004, but one thing here and one thing there is not enough. He needs to do it consistently. If he can go to domestics or better county cricket and work on 4/5 day formats, then it'll be better.

[punjabi_khota]

p_k, Firstly, YS does not need world class spinners. If symmonds can trouble him, then even regular spinners can. Second, i havent forgotten lahore 2004, but one thing here and one thing there is not enough. He needs to do it consistently. If he can go to domestics or better county cricket and work on 4/5 day formats, then it'll be better.

I agree he has to be consistent, but do you understand how much pressure he was under when playing down under. There was reams of newsprint discussing how Yuvi had disturbed the delicate balance of Indian batting line-up, how Dravid was forced to sacrifice & made to open. This was all needless pressure, for no fault of his. Dravid should have spoken up earlier, if he wanted. And Aussie tour is always the toughest for any batsman. Ask Dravid himself, who sucked ass in 2000 tour down under. Sydney test was THE most tense situation anyone could imagine, because of what had happened earlier in the test. I am not making excuses, just telling you my opinion about a man I think has genuine talent to succeed, given an uninterrupted run for a couple of series without him being made the scapegoat or blamed for something he has not control over. Regarding his ability to play spinners like Symonds, I think he is more than capable. Maybe its all in his mind and he gets too worked up. P.S.: 2004 Lahore was good but 2006 Karachi was awesome. For genuine no-holds barred hitting on a flat pitch, his third century, also against Pak last year was a gem too.