Your attitiude towards your Pak friends day by day

[Texy]

I would never buy any pakistani ever again...coz that would be an insult to everyone who gave their lives coz of these pigs.... I hate everything about them...... simple as that....

[Bumper]

Good point, but my answer would be ‘Gandhi fought for the freedom of all Indians, not just certain sections of Indians’. I don’t expect you to boycott Israeli goods because they’re attacking Palestinians. Obviously, you cant fight everyone’s war, but my point is ‘If you think of boycotting Pakistani goods because Pakistan is supporting terrorism in India, why are you not boycotting Chinese goods too? After all, don’t the Chinese support the Pakistanis?’. I respect your rage at a nation that harms Indians, but why is that rage restricted to one country alone?

Your premise is flawed. Extending your theory, (hypothetically speaking) had Indians been the victims of civil war in America and had Gandhi simply focussed on the freedom of Indians living in India, would that make him a hypocrite ? Why couldnt he have chosen to fight the most important battle given that his resources are limited ? Infact it does not even have to be hypothetical. Indians are subsets of human beings. So i declare Gandhi a hypocrite for not fighting for all human issues (if you want an example -- persecution of the Jews by Hitler) that were far graver than India's freedom fight and instead focussing on a very small subset of human sufferings of his times. Are you a non-vegetarian ? Does eating meat (while condemning killings) make you a hypocrite ? Or if you are a vegetarian by principle, does drinking milk that constitutes cow's blood make you a hypocrite ? Are you a vegan ? If you are, doesnt eating plants (that amounts to killing plants) make you a hypocrite ? Or do you simply starve to keep up your principles ? If you do, wouldnt wearing shoes (that are made of animal's skin) make you a hypocrite ? You can see hypocrisy in every walk of our life, if you want to. Continuing this way, you can see how ridiculous this can get, dont you ? If you dont see it, tell me something you do in your every day life, I'll tell you how it makes you a hypocrite.:haha:

Well, if we can define the fight here ‘Anger at nations who support anti-India activities and hence the boycott of their goods’, then isn’t it hypocritical to boycott Pakistani goods and not Chinese goods?

You missed the point i addressed about China in my prev post. I agree that Chinese have been anal to our interests. But if Pakistan did not exist, China would be irrelevant. They are merely playing military politics to keep India in check. Such games are part of every military's tactics.

[sandtest]

:haha: Looks like wing commander Dada Rocks, Rear Admiral Sandtest, Left.Colonel Bossbhai and First officer Suraj from the Right-wing loony brigade have all assembled...

so the same old leftist stereotyping is your response and you expect DR,BB , Suraj etc. to take you seriously in any discourse? Chalo, for the moment I will agree with you, people here are lunatic, extremists, right wingers, nationalists with lack of "morality" etc. etc. If you wish you can make this your signature and be done with that. Anyway, here is once again your rant for which We are awaiting justification. Marirs_Mania uvach

This is where the double standards arise, as far as I am concerned. According to your logic, you wont support the killer (Pakistan), if the person being killed is Indian, while it isnt incumbent upon you to do the same, if the killer (US) is killing non-Indians? (Iraqis, Afghanistan, Palestinians). What kind of twisted morality is that?

Main sirf itnaa jaanana chaahtaa hoon, what justification in the name of morality you will offer equating Government of USA's War on Terror with Terrorism spread by Lashkar-e-Toiba/Al Qaeda etc. I am asking this because I seriously want to understand position of leftist, Islamists and arabs who think exactly in the same way as you when they accuse evil USA for "state sponsored" terrorism in all their supreme wisdom. In a way your educated justification for such comparison will reflect POV of theirs.

[Ram]

Main sirf itnaa jaanana chaahtaa hoon, what justification in the name of morality you will offer equating Government of USA's War on Terror with Terrorism spread by Lashkar-e-Toiba/Al Qaeda etc. I am asking this because I seriously want to understand position of leftist, Islamists and arabs who think exactly in the same way as you when they accuse evil USA for "state sponsored" terrorism in all their supreme wisdom. In a way your educated justification for such comparison will reflect POV of theirs.

Why do I accuse USA of state-sponsored terrorism? VERY VERY simple; "The dictator of Iraq and his weapons of mass destruction are a threat to the security of free nations." • President Bush, 3/16/03 I ask you, where are the WMDs? And do you know the toll on human life since the war began? - 90,147 – 98,413 The terrorists kill for religion. America kills for oil and Israel. Thats the only difference.

[kablooee87]

I have several Indian friends. Back in high school we generally stayed away from talking about Indo-Pak relations and similar topics. Recently though with many of them I don't shy away from engaging in discussions about animosity between Pakistan and India. We all consider each other to be reasonably decent people which allows us to have meaningful discussions on issues we disagree in without dismissing the other as some sort of monster, moron, scum etc. I think upon careful examination you'll find that if those who generalize a group of people were to befriend someone from that group, then the conflicting personal experience would almost always override whatever stereotyped feelings they may have previously had. Of course, if those stereotypes are embedded strongly enough, then the personal experience would manifest itself as "the exception to the rule."

[kablooee87]

As far as boycotting goods goes, my mom used to avoid Indian goods altogether. I found the idea quite silly.

[Bumper]

I have several Indian friends. Back in high school we generally stayed away from talking about Indo-Pak relations and similar topics. Recently though with many of them I don't shy away from engaging in discussions about animosity between Pakistan and India. We all consider each other to be reasonably decent people which allows us to have meaningful discussions on issues we disagree in without dismissing the other as some sort of monster, moron, scum etc. I think upon careful examination you'll find that if those who generalize a group of people were to befriend someone from that group, then the conflicting personal experience would almost always override whatever stereotyped feelings they may have previously had. Of course, if those stereotypes are embedded strongly enough, then the personal experience would manifest itself as "the exception to the rule."

Kablooe, appreciate your thoughts. I hope you appreciate the reason for the animosity here. As an Indian, am not just angry about some terrorists walking into my country and killing innocent civilians. What am more angry about is the summary denial of what I consider evidence beyond reasonable doubt by people I thought are sane and reasonable Pakistanis -- the likes of MundaPakistani aka PlanetPakistan and some guys in the PP site. Their hypocrisy is staggering. On the one hand they are shedding tears for their Palestinians brothers, condemning Israeli attacks as savage brutality & all and on the other hand all you guys are rubbishing Mumbai attacks as some kind of Indian conspiracy. People are people man. 170 odd civilians in Mumbai died as painful a death as the 290 odd Palestinians. To their credit, the Mumbaikars did not go fire rockets into Lashkar territories to invite this trouble. Infact your entire country seems to lack conscience. How can all your citizens, media, politicians and army unanimously deny/coverup what the entire world acknowledges as a terror act originating from Pakistan ? Is there a sane Pakistani out there who thinks the mountain of evidence that has emerged (satellite phones with phone numbers, Source of the emails claiming attack, blueprint of the operations, Kasab's identity & his roots, FBI & UK's evidence etc) suggest (at least suggest) that he could have come from Pakistan ? I want to know what you think of this.

[punjabi_khota]

I have several Indian friends. Back in high school we generally stayed away from talking about Indo-Pak relations and similar topics. Recently though with many of them I don't shy away from engaging in discussions about animosity between Pakistan and India. We all consider each other to be reasonably decent people which allows us to have meaningful discussions on issues we disagree in without dismissing the other as some sort of monster, moron, scum etc. I think upon careful examination you'll find that if those who generalize a group of people were to befriend someone from that group, then the conflicting personal experience would almost always override whatever stereotyped feelings they may have previously had. Of course, if those stereotypes are embedded strongly enough, then the personal experience would manifest itself as "the exception to the rule."

The attitude of Pakistanis on this board, after Mumbai attacks has basically justified the stereotypes. In fact, it has strengthened the stereotypes. In fact, they behaved exactly I expected them to. There is a nice parallel between what I see on this board, and what I experience in real life here in US. On the boards, people like MP etc come across as reasonable people, no different from posters from any other country, AS LONG AS we are discussing cricket or finance or any such stuff. BUT as soon as we talk about terrorism, the so-called "logical" approach goes out of the window and you will be hard pressed to find difference between a illiterate Paki terrorist and these people in the way they approach such debates. Lots of posters on this board try to convince them, REASON with them, but obviously, they are just falling into a trap. When overwhelmed with evidence, they are no where to be seen, not a single statement acknowledging the facts. In real life, as long we are playing cricket, watching bollywood movies, going on road trips and doing such stuff, it is all good. They are like any other desis, have similar aspirations and thinking more or less. But whenever an incident such as Mumbai attacks comes up, it is better NOT to talk about it. I am remined of the Indian ex-army officer that appeared on that Pakistani show with Zaid Hamid, who said "THE PERCEPTIONS ON BOTH SIDES ARE DIFFERENT AND UNLESS THAT CHANGES, WE CANNOT BE TRUE FRIENDS WITH PAKISTANIS". I think that is very very true.

[kablooee87]

Kablooe, appreciate your thoughts. I hope you appreciate the reason for the animosity here. As an Indian, am not just angry about some terrorists walking into my country and killing innocent civilians. What am more angry about is the summary denial of what I consider evidence beyond reasonable doubt by people I thought are sane and reasonable Pakistanis -- the likes of MundaPakistani aka PlanetPakistan and some guys in the PP site. Their hypocrisy is staggering. On the one hand they are shedding tears for their Palestinians brothers, condemning Israeli attacks as savage brutality & all and on the other hand all you guys are rubbishing Mumbai attacks as some kind of Indian conspiracy. People are people man. 170 odd civilians in Mumbai died as painful a death as the 290 odd Palestinians. To their credit, the Mumbaikars did not go fire rockets into Lashkar territories to invite this trouble. Infact your entire country seems to lack conscience. How can all your citizens, media, politicians and army unanimously deny/coverup what the entire world acknowledges as a terror act originating from Pakistan ? Is there a sane Pakistani out there who thinks the mountain of evidence that has emerged (satellite phones with phone numbers, Source of the emails claiming attack, blueprint of the operations, Kasab's identity & his roots, FBI & UK's evidence etc) suggest (at least suggest) that he could have come from Pakistan ? I want to know what you think of this.

I tried talking about the Mumbai attacks on this board shortly after they happened and got some very offensive replies. That was partly my fault, the wounds were too fresh and emotions were running too high. For that reason I'm not gooing to get into the Mumbai attacks specifically. However, I do have some thoughts I'd like to share on the general issue: That elements in the Pakistani leadership (be it civilian or military, I don't know) pulls some spineless stuff is undeniable. The holier than thou attitude that seems to be prevailing across the border is just as farcical. In the interest of answering your question though, I'll stick to Pakistan. I've had many hours of discussions at dinner parties, with friends and relatives back in Pakistan, and at general hang-outs since late November. I have yet to speak with one Pakistani who isn't genuinely embarrassed that Asif Ali Zardari is the president of Pakistan. Not one. But, the opinions aren't nearly as unanimous when the topic shifts to military leadership. The reason, in my opinion, is because nothing seems to unite Pakistan like India. That statement sounds funny when you hear it but it's absolutely true. I don't think deep down many Pakistani's are all that impressed with some the actions of their military leadership either. But this time there's that ever present caveat: India. People always find it easier to blame an external force rather than look in the mirror. It's a phenomenon found in pretty much every group of people (including Indians), it's human nature. Not as if that makes it ok, it doesn't. But given the choice of whining of some of your own doing you wrong, or someone else doing you wrong, the latter almost always wins out. This is also the reason for that staggering silence (as someone mentioned earlier) regarding the atrocities such as those committed in Darfur while the disgust at the massacres committed by the US and Israel is loud and clear. But the mistake many people make (and I see it a lot on this very forum) is applying the inappropriateness of that silence to the protest regarding US/Israel. That is to say, just because the Muslim Ummah is at fault for ignoring the plight of Darfur, does not mean that it's at fault for attempting to highlight the plight of Palestinians. I try my best (often unsuccessfully) to constantly remind myself that I don't have as much information about any given subject as I think I do. People seem to think that because they've read a few news articles and watched a few news clippings, that they have the whole story. The Mumbai attacks issue is no different. Is there a Pakistani connection in the attacks? Given the information I do have, I think I can safely say it's more the likely, in fact a certainty. The extent of that involvement is not for me to say because I simply don't know. I can't rule out that the order came from Kayani himself, just as I can't rule out that the Pakistani leadership didn't know about the plans at all.

[Guest Hiten.]

I do have many pakistani friends but my conversation with them has always been "hey whats up...hows life....take it ez" type. I have only 2 close Pakistani friends and we tend to not discuss any political issues. About Pakistani products, I was never in a dilemma of choosing them or rejecting them as I seriously have not seen any Made In Pakistan tag in my life :nervous:. ...it might be because I am not a shopping freak or I go to groceries stores that are owned by my dad's friends.

[Bumper]

The Mumbai attacks issue is no different. Is there a Pakistani connection in the attacks? Given the information I do have, I think I can safely say it's more the likely, in fact a certainty. The extent of that involvement is not for me to say because I simply don't know. I can't rule out that the order came from Kayani himself, just as I can't rule out that the Pakistani leadership didn't know about the plans at all.

Thanks for being reasonable kablooee. I dont expect you guys to acknowledge that it was initiated by your govt or army. Even though I believe so, I'd agree that there is no strong evidence to link ISI or your state with the crime. I merely expected average Pakistanis (the ones you find on message boards) to acknolwedge that it was intiated by terrorist groups in Pakistan and condemn the act, rather than make one hypocritical claim after the other in such dismissive tone. When even that wasnt to be, Indians naturally wonder if your entire country is full of hypocrites. Understandably, people are upset here.

[punjabi_khota]

Stuff...

What do you make of Zaid Hamid and his immense popularity in Pakistan ? Who believes in his **** ? How is the stuff like that even allowed to be broadcast on TV(other than on comedy central Pakistan) ?

[Texy]

I tried talking about the Mumbai attacks on this board shortly after they happened and got some very offensive replies. That was partly my fault, the wounds were too fresh and emotions were running too high. For that reason I'm not gooing to get into the Mumbai attacks specifically. However, I do have some thoughts I'd like to share on the general issue: That elements in the Pakistani leadership (be it civilian or military, I don't know) pulls some spineless stuff is undeniable. The holier than thou attitude that seems to be prevailing across the border is just as farcical. In the interest of answering your question though, I'll stick to Pakistan. I've had many hours of discussions at dinner parties, with friends and relatives back in Pakistan, and at general hang-outs since late November. I have yet to speak with one Pakistani who isn't genuinely embarrassed that Asif Ali Zardari is the president of Pakistan. Not one. But, the opinions aren't nearly as unanimous when the topic shifts to military leadership. The reason, in my opinion, is because nothing seems to unite Pakistan like India. That statement sounds funny when you hear it but it's absolutely true. I don't think deep down many Pakistani's are all that impressed with some the actions of their military leadership either. But this time there's that ever present caveat: India. People always find it easier to blame an external force rather than look in the mirror. It's a phenomenon found in pretty much every group of people (including Indians), it's human nature. Not as if that makes it ok, it doesn't. But given the choice of whining of some of your own doing you wrong, or someone else doing you wrong, the latter almost always wins out. This is also the reason for that staggering silence (as someone mentioned earlier) regarding the atrocities such as those committed in Darfur while the disgust at the massacres committed by the US and Israel is loud and clear. But the mistake many people make (and I see it a lot on this very forum) is applying the inappropriateness of that silence to the protest regarding US/Israel. That is to say, just because the Muslim Ummah is at fault for ignoring the plight of Darfur, does not mean that it's at fault for attempting to highlight the plight of Palestinians. I try my best (often unsuccessfully) to constantly remind myself that I don't have as much information about any given subject as I think I do. People seem to think that because they've read a few news articles and watched a few news clippings, that they have the whole story. The Mumbai attacks issue is no different. Is there a Pakistani connection in the attacks? Given the information I do have, I think I can safely say it's more the likely, in fact a certainty. The extent of that involvement is not for me to say because I simply don't know. I can't rule out that the order came from Kayani himself, just as I can't rule out that the Pakistani leadership didn't know about the plans at all.

best response i've seen from a pakistani in a long time........ this is a rare moment, i'm gonna take a snapshot of my desktop with this response.

[Guest dada_rocks]

I have several Indian friends. Back in high school we generally stayed away from talking about Indo-Pak relations and similar topics. Recently though with many of them I don't shy away from engaging in discussions about animosity between Pakistan and India. We all consider each other to be reasonably decent people which allows us to have meaningful discussions on issues we disagree in without dismissing the other as some sort of monster, moron, scum etc. I think upon careful examination you'll find that if those who generalize a group of people were to befriend someone from that group, then the conflicting personal experience would almost always override whatever stereotyped feelings they may have previously had. Of course, if those stereotypes are embedded strongly enough, then the personal experience would manifest itself as "the exception to the rule."

BS I have had opportunity to interact with pakistani samples decently educated I might add and found that their thinking is rotten to the core..there is no hope of redemption at all

[rahulrulezz]

i have lotsa close Pakistani friends but i dont think any of these stuff has affected our friendship... yeah, it was a bit odd for the first week after 26-11 as all my Pakistani friends felt bad and were giving their condolescences.. but the point is that all of them totally condemned the terror attack and equally hate terrorists.... but i do agree that on web/net, there is this sudden extreme hatered from both Indians and Pakistanis towards each other.... imagine if both Countries leave in peace, India dont have to spend that money on protecting the borders and buying stupid weapons and will use that to improve infrastructure and poor people... One day...

[vadodaravictor]

i have lotsa close Pakistani friends but i dont think any of these stuff has affected our friendship... yeah' date=' it was a bit odd for the first week after 26-11 as all my Pakistani friends felt bad and were giving their condolescences.. but the point is that all of them totally condemned the terror attack and equally hate terrorists.... but i do agree that on web/net, there is this sudden extreme hatered from both Indians and Pakistanis towards each other.... [b']imagine if both Countries leave in peace, India dont have to spend that money on protecting the borders and buying stupid weapons and will use that to improve infrastructure and poor people... One day...

We do want to live in peace. But our neighbors don't want us to. That's a fact. Neighbors are jealous of India's progress and want constant unrest in India.

[fineleg]

Why do I accuse USA of state-sponsored terrorism? The terrorists kill for religion. America kills for oil and Israel. Thats the only difference.

MM, While Boss, DR et.al. have their usual "kick out or convert Muslims-to-Hindus" type of extreme point of view - I still like to question your view mentioned above. If USA is doing 'equivalent of' that, then how come you comfortably ignore that and live in USA and contribute into the treasury and general economy of a country which does what you claim it does? Do you mean to say you are turning a blind eye to such "state-sponsored" - because it has good job and career prospects? (Dont distinguish USA from the govt. For purposes of this argument they are the same). Again - I am not supporting extremist statements by BB or DR - merely restricting myself to the statement you made above (namely, "thats the ONLY difference!" phrase you mentioned above)

[Shehezaada]

finey, My views are backed by historical facts figures trends and logic. Yours are backed by horse manure and hot gas. Provide facts to substantiate your views and then lay claim to the title of "Parahon of Peace , Secularism and Justice" . Talk is cheap and even amits can do that. As such those who tried to debate topics such Islam, Kashmir and extreemism privately or otherwise got their butts soundly mutilated and now can be seen howling on the MB resorting to the usual tactics of Hit and run or closing threads that cowards are known to do.

Hinduism doesn't teach hatred towards any religion but you seem to make a career out of anti Islamic posts

[sandtest]

Hinduism doesn't teach hatred towards any religion.

I agree! Further, In fact Hinduism doesnot even preach "EXCLUSIVE" supremacy of a "seperate" entity called "God/Allah/Jehovah". So even calling it a "religion" is like viewing Hinduism from Islamic mirror; TV evangelists like Zakir Naik do on daily basis exactly this i.e. mislead people by telling them that Hinduism, Budhism etc. etc. need to be eventually merged with Islam by pointing some vague similiary.:giggle: while ignoring this basic contradiction about concept of "seperate" entity "Allah" the very backbone of Islamic belief system.

l but you seem to make a career out of anti Islamic posts

This is False. Making a judgement without understanding what Bossbhai wants to convey. What he says are the verifiable TRUTH which has been purpusefully ignored in India and now no one wants to accept them because everyone is told a diluted, more politically correct history for some strange reasons/dhimmitude of Marxist historians.

[sandtest]

Why do I accuse USA of state-sponsored terrorism? VERY VERY simple; "The dictator of Iraq and his weapons of mass destruction are a threat to the security of free nations." • President Bush, 3/16/03 I ask you, where are the WMDs? The terrorists kill for religion. America kills for oil and Israel. Thats the only difference.

That is the view of arab Islamists as well, after ignoring the context, ground realities prevailing during that time. I will briefly summarize the situation of Iraq, before United State took the global war on terror to Iraq and Afghanistan -- Iraq was a country where 20% Sunni Salafi Muslims lead by Saddam Hussain ruled an 80% majority Shia population. Go Figure! Not only this, Saddam Hussain's Sunni Bath party worked exactly like Nazi party of Hitler era Germany was working. They killed and eliminated any single Shia who raise even a voice against Sunni government of Saddam. Bath Party of Saddam has some Nazi killers like that infamous "Chemical" Ali who killed hundreds of Shia and Kurds by using toxic chemicals and regular threat to neighboring Kuwait for similiar consequences. I sometimes wonder if many western educated folks even know the difference between Shia and Sunni in Islam and Iraqi lands historical importance in Islamic schism. I am sure many don't even know whether Al Qaeda/Taliban is Sunni or Shia :haha: Anyway under this circumstances, United States decided to take down Saddam and bring democracy in Iraq, which has only NET GAIN than contrary to theory peddled by Sunni arab thinkers -- (1) Before US toppled Saddam, Iraq was under severe sanctions of not only US and Europe but also United Nations. United Nations passed a bill preventing the world from buying oil and doing any meaningful trade with Saddam's Iraq, for he was engaged in killing his own citizens(Shias).Iraq was hardly able to sell any oil accept some token amount in exchange for food (our Indian Kaangressi vultures even made money out of that :giggle:) Contrary to this after months of bloody bomb blasts and violence, for which in fact, Iraqi Sunni militants of Al-Qaeda were more responsible than US army, Today Iraq is new country. The sanctions of US and UN is no more. Iraq in it's modern history, is first time ruled by a Shia leader (Nouri Al Maliki) duly elected by the will of their people.Kurds are having fair representation. Moreover, if really Iraqis were so oppressed then how come hundreds of thousands of Iraqis came out on street celebrating their freedom from a tyrant as if they have got independence when Saddam was caught. It was a moment of Independence for Iraqis like we had in 1947, of course middle east media dominated by Sunni arabs will hesitate in saying this for obvious reasons. Moreover going by your own hyper morality preaching isn't it morally a good thing that USA freed majority Iraqis from oppression?

And do you know the toll on human life since the war began? - 90,147 – 98,413

Do you know the toll of "Human" life during partition of India and Pakistan that took place just because a Jinnah said that a pure religion like Islam cannot live together with kaafirs? Do you know the toll of "Human" life when Bangladesh got their independence? And how the hell you know all were innocent "Human". More than 70% killing was done by Suicide bombers of Al Qaeda in Iraq who were NOT ready to except kaafir like Shia's rule Sunnis in Iraq. You really need to come out of this morality and PC bakwaas of Aryundhati kind and look at history with perspective of long term NET GAINS for humanity before denouncing everything evil USA.