Don't Go Overboard

[Ram]

Agree with point 1, but have significant reservations about 2 & 3. IPL has been big boost for Indian cricket. One cannot judge the impact it had on our game by the result of this game alone? Where were our reservations about the IPL or the impact it had, when we thumped this same England team 5-0? Where were the reservations, when we won our first ever ODI series in New Zealand ever, earlier this year? Then, everyone was raving about the how our cricketers had become suited to the ODI game because of the IPL. IPL is a good thing for Indian cricket and I will always want it to continue. We lost in this tournament due a combination of various factors, one of them the crowded calender that our players have to had subject themselves. And 7 week IPL did not help. Most importantly, we were found out by some quick short-pitched bowling at the top. IPL has got nothing to do with that. We missed Sehwag, badly. With regards to Rohit and Raina - Absolutely both of them are ready for international cricket, albeit each of them more suited to different formats. Raina and Rohit are still a shoo-in for any Indian T20 and ODI squads, with Rohit steadily knocking on the doors of a test call-up. After all, wasnt it only a week ago, when this same Rohit Sharma guided us to a thumping win over our arch-rivals Pakistan in a WC stage? And sure, Raina may have short-comings against short-pitched bowling, but he compensates for it with a heart of a lion. He's a fighter this boy and he will come through. Moreover, players like Waugh and Ganguly also had severe problems against short-pitched bowling? Didnt they endure and persevere? Bottom-line, if you have toruble facing short-pitched bowling, it does not mean you career is over. Raina will be back.

[Kriterion]

And yet you would prefer to see a mediocre quick bowler like Mohammad Malcolm Sami or Barney Rubble Hossain rather than a quality test bowler who isn't super-fast like Glenn McGrath?

being a mcgrath fan and a test cricket fan are not mutually inclusive. clearly, deciphering obvious sarcasm isn't your strong suit.

[Dhondy]

I'll just bring this up from a few weeks ago: http://www.indiancricketfans.com/showpost.php?p=698909&postcount=28 But on #3, while one can call for Raina and Rohit's heads, who would you suggest to replace them? Only worth booting a player if you have better replacements in the wings. All the other top domestic batsmen are either not T20 players (Badrinath, Rahane, Pujara) or have even weaker techniques.

We don't have to play 20-20 at this level for a couple of years, so let's put that on the backburner. My concern is about Test cricket, and the ever closer retirement of India's three great middle order bats. Unless Rohit & co sort out the glitches, India will sink like a ship that's been shot with a nuclear missile. Coming back to IPL, can any of you put your hand on your heart and tell me how these two came through another successful season without being found out? It took just two matches at an international level for them to be sorted out. Proof, if ever any was needed, that the intensity of a contrived tamasha version like the IPL can never match what one experiences when one is representing ones nation.

[Sooda]

In a way perhaps its best. A longer rest time now... whens our next series... probably in 10 days or so..

[Dhondy]

Agree with point 1, but have significant reservations about 2 & 3. IPL has been big boost for Indian cricket. ........We lost in this tournament due a combination of various factors, one of them the crowded calender that our players have to had subject themselves. And 7 week IPL did not help. .

Non-sequitor.

With regards to Rohit and Raina - Absolutely both of them are ready for international cricket, albeit each of them more suited to different formats. ..... And sure, Raina may have short-comings against short-pitched bowling, but he compensates for it with a heart of a lion. He's a fighter this boy and he will come through. Bottom-line, if you have toruble facing short-pitched bowling, it does not mean you career is over. Raina will be back

No evidence for anything you say there. Pure hopeful speculation.

[graphic23]

That's exactly right Graphic. when you have something to protect- a reputation, a record, a lead, untold riches, you become more circumspect. That's human nature. That's why sport is the most demanding vocation of all. You need great insight and have superhuman reserves to resist your natural "I'll keep what I have" inclinations and remain on the offensive....stay with what worked for you in the first place. That's why so many good players lose tennis matches from two sets up against people like Federer and Nadal, who can rise above such conservative instincts. That's why an inordinately high number of goals in international football matches are scored in the dying minutes. Remember Man-United v Bayern in 1999? Remember Liverpool v Milan 2005? Great coaches have known this for many years and often warn their players against this very basic of errors. Very difficult for Dhoni.

Yes, and I think Dhoni as a captain, and India, as a team, is hounded by its past, when they've lost so much that as they induce a level of consistency into the team, they don't want to lose it by taking decisions that could potentially harm the team's position in a game. Today was a prime example of that by not sending Yuvraj at his regular spot with the fear that he might be out with short pitched balls coming at him. I am reminded of an article that I read back when I first joined the forums, it was written right after the SA test matches, it was titled, 'Dare to Lose, India'. I'll find it, and its a great read. Ok. FML. http://indiancricketfans.com/showthread.php?t=94181 - it was written by you Dhondy. Great read. :P

[Ram]

Non-sequitor.

Not quite. IPL has helped us unearth good players or assisted current players hone their talents. Many many international cricketers, including Pietersen, Flintoff have acknowledged that FACT. Now, I doubt if anyone would accuse them of lying.

No evidence for anything you say there. Pure hopeful speculation.

Speculation? Two failed matches do not mean end of the world. Where was the criticism when Rohit was bashing around Pakistani bowlers one week ago to lead us to a BIG victory? Raina may have issues againsr short-pitchec bowling, but most Indian batsmen do. Yuvraj has also had his fair share of problems with the short-pitched ball. Has he not thrived in ODI and T20 cricket? So, it would be a fair thing to say that Raina is nowhere close to a test spot, but he's a certainly a mainstay of our batting and fielding unit in ODIs and T20. And Rohit is just months away from his test debut.

[kumble_rocks]

Raina was always suspect against shot pitched bowling . Nothing special about the last two matches to bring home the truth about his short comings. And as regards to IPL , I am surprised that the OP is composed by somebody who follows professional soccer.If you get paid in millions , like say for example as Ronaldo does , the intensity and the pressure that he experiences to play for Man U or Real would be probably on same par as he would face when playing for Portugal. Same is the case with IPL.It is here to stay and it will certainly be more intense in the coming seasons....

[Dhondy]

Not quite. IPL has helped us unearth good players or assisted current players hone their talents. Many many international cricketers, including Pietersen, Flintoff have acknowledged that FACT. Now, I doubt if anyone would accuse them of lying.

Sriram, have you ever heard of a term called "vested interest" or "conflict of interest?" What else do you expect them to say? They both came, made tonnes of money in IPL, got injured, and were rendered hors-de-combat for their country. Very convenient indeed.

[cowboysfan]

i think dhondy made a good point about short pitched bowling.you may think that being deficient in playing the short ball will mean that you can still play well in limited overs cricket but that is not true at all.international teams will keep testing you until you get it right or you are bounced out of the team.Rohit and raina have to be especially good becuase they will play at 3 and 4 most of the times.

[Ram]

Sriram, have you ever heard of a term called "vested interest" or "conflict of interest?" What else do you expect them to say? They both came, made tonnes of money in IPL, got injured, and were rendered hors-de-combat for their country. Very convenient indeed.

Doc, I dont think it would be fair to accuse players like Pietersen and Flintoff to be bare-faced liars who would be willing to say things just for money. Sure, the money was good and that may have prompted them to say things that they would not have otherwise said, but you cannot deny the element of truth in their lines. Forget Flintoff and KP, many international coaches, including the coaches of S.Africa and New Zealand have acknowledged the role of IPL in transforming India's ODI unit. We thumped an England side 5-0 and beat New Zealand, in New Zealand, for the first time in our history. We were also the first team to decipher Mendis' mystery, all in the last 6 months. IPL did help us be better players, but unfortunately, it also added to our intense workload, which is probably why we looked jaded in this competition. So, in the short-run, we may have paid a price in the form of our T20 title defence, but in the longer run, IPL is a good thing for our cricket.

[Dhondy]

And as regards to IPL ' date=' I am surprised that the OP is composed by somebody who follows professional soccer.If you get paid in millions , like say for example as Ronaldo does , the intensity and the pressure that he experiences to play for Man U or Real would be probably on same par as he would face when playing for Portugal. Same is the case with IPL.It is here to stay and it will certainly be more intense in the coming seasons....[/quote'] Anybody who thinks playing for Rajasthan Royals or Delhi Daredevils generates the same amount of intensity as playing for a Man United or Real Madrid needs to get his bearings straight. Maybe in a 50 years' time....who knows.

[King]

And what's happening to Ishant is pure fatigue. He's like the walking dead. Zaheer fell victim to the incessant cricket too, as did Sehwag. Top level cricketers need a substantial rest period to recuperate and let small niggles heal. You, of all people, should know this Ravi, as you have played the game at a higher level than most of us. This is even more true for Indians, who are not natural athletes, say like Mitch Johnson.

Sure thing the fatigue is a factor particularly for fast bowlers. Even if you wish you want to bowl fast you just can't because the muscles just won't co-operate. That said why did Dhoni have to play him in every game while you have someone like RP that hasn't played much cricket over the last few months? At least Ishant Sharma could have been rested in the warm up games but they didn't do that either. The fast bowlers definitely need fair bit of rest if they have to do well on a consistent basis. Even Dhoni needs rest, he has to squat several times a day wicket keeping. He's been going on and on and on. I think the fatigue and pressure has caught up with this wonderful cricketer. He looks jaded. Perhaps you need to have a seperate Twenty20 cricket team consisting of some young blokes that can just go out there and enjoy themselves. I don't mind Dhoni resting from Twenty20s on a regular basis. Similarly bring in some medium pacers or some players from IPL or domestic that don't play as much cricket as the main stream cricketers. I guess rotation policy surely needs to be looked at. That said today's failure was more to do with inability to cope with short bowling, as usual terrible fielding and not able to perform under pressure. I don't want to use fatigue as a reason for today's loss.

[Guest Hiten.]

Anybody who thinks playing for Rajasthan Royals or Delhi Daredevils generates the same amount of intensity as playing for a Man United or Real Madrid needs to get his bearings straight. Maybe in a 50 years' time....who knows.

I think blaming IPL for every dismal performance by our players is quite childish and monotonous. It is quite a given that Man U, Real Madrid a la are much bigger, better and more accomplaished clubs than the franchises in IPL, but at the same time these clubs have been established a century or more ago. KR's point is if soccer players can participate in a club football, why cant the cricketers do the same and milk money ? Heck, I say cricketers show far more allegiance towards their country than the soccer player as cricketers juggle (or trying to) both International duties and IPL duties.

[Dhondy]

I think blaming IPL for every dismal performance by our players is quite childish and monotonous. It is quite a given that Man U' date=' Real Madrid a la are much bigger, better and more accomplaished clubs than the franchises in IPL, but at the same time these clubs have been established a century or more ago. KR's point is if soccer players can participate in a club football, why cant the cricketers do the same and milk money ? Heck, I say cricketers show far more allegiance towards their country than the soccer player as cricketers juggle (or trying to) both International duties and IPL duties.[/quote'] I made my point and backed it up with details of injuries that could otherwise have been avoided and blemishes in technique that were papered over by IPL. Don't need to go an ad nauseum about this.

[umpire]

From No Fear Cricket to defensive and restrain cricket, we have come long way. 2007 WC we had nothing to prove. We were not expected to reach Semis. We had no experience in T20. The Mantra was "No Fear and Enjoy your Cricket" and in this world cup somehow they had fears. Right now best thing for all of them is to rest their minds and take complete break and hopefully they can go back to no fear cricket.

[flamy]

Ya, sad that.

[Sachinism]

It aint easy playing with such high expectations when any little mistake will be criticised so easily, you try to do everything right, but it doesn't work out. 2007 nobody expected us to win, as Dhoni said almost after every game, he told the players to go out there and have fun. This time round they weren't expected to have fun but to win

[kumble_rocks]

Anybody who thinks playing for Rajasthan Royals or Delhi Daredevils generates the same amount of intensity as playing for a Man United or Real Madrid needs to get his bearings straight. Maybe in a 50 years' time....who knows.

If naysayers like yourself had their say back then, premier league would have died long ago .IPL is in it's nascency. Give it time to mature. People like yourself with a jaundiced mind when it comes to t20 are certainly not helping it's cause. Like I said before, IPL is here to stay , purists and oldies better learn to deal with it.

[The Outsider]

Yes, Dhoni was defensive and cost us that game. He also cost us a Test match victory at Wellington. But that's what carrying the expectations of a billion people does to you. None of you will ever know because you will never come close to anything like it.

You are being light on Dhoni here - Dhoni was not being defensive he was being ultra foolish. And that's really surprising coming from someone like Dhoni who has been a pretty inspiring and impressive captain on most occasions. And no, it's not a question of whether we will ever feel that sort of pressure in our lives - we probably won't - it's more a question of bringing your best arsenal to the front as early as you can to put the opponent on the back foot, specifically in a match which lasts 3 hours. I would not have any qualms with Dhoni if he had sent Yuvraj at number 4 and he would have failed - failure and success are not only in sports but in every aspect of life. But it makes zero cricketing sense to hold back your best batsman in a T20 when even in a 50 over match it has been well established that you need to give the maximum number overs to your best batsman.

There will be reams and reams of analysis, lots of emotion, recriminations. I hope three hard truths come out because that's all India will take home with her. 1. You can't fear defeat in sport. Play to win under all circumstances, don't succumb to a risk free approach, and if you have enough good players, you will win. It's tough for Dhoni right now, but he is a big boy. I am sure he'll learn.

Again to reiterate from my previous paragraph, we did not play with fear - we played foolishly. I have no qualms with a team playing with fear for that can actually bring out some of the best performances, it's a brainless display that I have a problem with.

2. IPL has not contributed anything to Indian cricket. It has hidden stark blemishes, led to injuries and deskilled the world champions in the very form of the game that it showcases. I hope BCCI think long and hard about eviscerating the golden goose.

IPL has not contributed much cricket wise, but has contributed a lot by having many of our players the opportunity to play under scenarios of stress and pressure and that is something which this team can build upon. We will have a group of 20 individuals ready in 5 years who would have the experience of many an international matches without actually playing in one.

3. Rohit & Raina are not ready for international cricket. I had my reservations about these two, and the last two matches have brought home the bitter truth. If you can't play the short ball, you are toast. And that's in any form of cricket. Get back to the basics and sort your flaws out.

I agree about Raina after seeing his performance this WC - I am a huge fan of Raina. He needs to seriously work on his backfoot play and short pitch bowling combating. Rohit is actually a pretty good backfoot player - you might castigate me on the evidence that he put up in the last two matches but my reading of him is of a batsman who can play all the strokes everywhere - what he lacks id a judgment of length which is not as hard to come by as teaching someone to play the hook or pull. The guy is a supreme talent IMO - he has a lot of time to play his strokes, has all shots in the book, all he needs is some pressure free experience to express himself which unfortunately is not being provided in our cramped schedule.