Short ball : Steady on lads and lasses, don’t be swayed too much…

[Ram]

Let's see: I called him useless in tests and a two trick pony' date=' based on actual performances with plenty of empirical data to back it up later in that thread.[/quote'] Your 'emperical data' proved that he is over-rated, but I am not sure how ANOYNE can call Brett Lee of all people '****ing useless' or 'two-trick pony' or say 'he should stick to making money off Bollywood' using ANY 'emperical data'. By those standards, 90% of international cricketers should not even be playing the game right now.

You suggested that Bishop's brain is still crowded based on past Indian stereotypes and that Hussain somehow got confused between captaining and commentating in a job he's been doing very well for a number of years now. There's a clear difference. Read your argument, then mine from that other thread, then try and work out the difference. (Or continue the mind-reading, given how good you seem to be at it based off your analyses of Hussain's and Bishop's grey matter and all their biases and thought processes.)

There's no mind-reading going on here, just plain some plain observations. When Nasser Hussein saw Raina handling a bouncer uncomfortably and tells things like 'I heard a lot about this boy(Raina), did they not bowl bouncers to him at the IPL?', then its obvious that he is deviating from his job commentating and meandering on to taking pot-shots at the player. I do not know how you could miss that. And, they seem to be completely oblivious to a whole host of other factors that lead to our defeat. They hardly talked our botched up batting order, which ensured UV did not get to face a ball till the 13th over. I feel that was one of the central reasons to our losses, but it hardly got any attention. However, I really do need you to answer this question. In your opinion, do you consider Suresh Raina, Gautam Gambhir and Rohit Sharma to be bad players of the short-pitched ball? This is VERY important because it is central to our differing opinions on whether the commentary was biased or not. I'd appreciate it if you could provide me an answer to this question.

Oh good grief, where do I begin? Batting lineup in South Africa in the test we won there: Jaffer, Sehwag, Dravid, Tendulkar, Laxman, Ganguly Batting lineup in Australia in the test we won there: Jaffer, Sehwag, Dravid, Tendulkar, Ganguly, Laxman Batting lineup in New Zealand in the test we won there: Sehwag, Gambhir, Dravid, Tendulkar, Laxman, Yuvraj. Only in ONE of those tests we won abroad were there any batsmen from this T20 world tournament. That's hardly the same batting lineup. How on earth is pointing that out a "trivial technicality"?

I've already responded to that post (if you havent already read it). I invoked those test victories to counter the popular perception that is being thrown around that our players are not good players of quick, short-pitched stuff. I did NOT use those test match peformances to defend specific players.

[Online]

Commentators need not be unbiased, in fact it's fun if they are a little biased But yes, lets not fret too much over this loss

[Dhondy]

I know it hurts like hell, Sriram. Accused of not being able to play short, fast bowling is about on par with being told you can't produce fast bowlers because you are weak & skinny. Just let it go. It's true, the first bit that is. Bishop was in the side that bowled India out for 83 chasing 125. He won't have any respect for us. Truth is, India have lost a great deal of respect by capitulating the way they did v WI & SL. It won't matter that we are above these two teams in both Tests & ODIs. People will seize on this opportunity to generalise, much as all Pakistani bowlers as tarred as ball tamperers here. Way to shut people up? Beat them in their backyard. It's no coincidence that Nasser & Bishop have only just start talking stuff about India after keeping their counsel for several years. Have bad news for you though. India are headed in just one direction- down. I'll discuss the reasons another time. You better get used to these kind of putdownns.

[cowboysfan]

i am flabbergasted by the negativity shown here.are some of our young guys vulnerable against the short ball-defintely.can they improve and work on it-absolutely.If they cant we have more and more young guys coming through now and we will find someone who can.The future of Indian cricket is very bright.we might have some difficulty in replacing our batting greats in test matches but even that is not insurmountable.

[fineleg]

I know it hurts like hell, Sriram. Accused of not being able to play short, fast bowling is about on par with being told you can't produce fast bowlers because you are weak & skinny. Just let it go. It's true, the first bit that is. Bishop was in the side that bowled India out for 83 chasing 125. He won't have any respect for us. Truth is, India have lost a great deal of respect by capitulating the way they did v WI & SL. It won't matter that we are above these two teams in both Tests & ODIs. People will seize on this opportunity to generalise, much as all Pakistani bowlers as tarred as ball tamperers here. Way to shut people up? Beat them in their backyard. It's no coincidence that Nasser & Bishop have only just start talking stuff about India after keeping their counsel for several years. Have bad news for you though. India are headed in just one direction- down. I'll discuss the reasons another time. You better get used to these kind of putdownns.

Well written post. I dont know what MM is on about in this thread. No commentator said India has always failed against fast bowling. Ofcourse we have had many legends in the past and (present Test team) who have conquered fast bowling and won against countries in AWAY series. That is not what the commentators were talking about. They are talking about the players in the current T20 world cup squad, many of whom were plain UNGAINLY and ugly to watch against good fiery pace worked up by Fidel Edwards, Jerome Taylor, Sidebottom et.al. These guys who jumped like bunnies against pace have a LONG, LONG way to go before they will be accepted as good players against fast bowling. Can you imagine Raina in Test matches? Obviously he will face a heck of a lot chin bowling if he goes to Aus or SA for Tests, and will get bounced out. Unless he spends the next year or two to seriously work on that aspect. He probably can improve, and good luck to him for that and hope he works real hard at it.

[The Outsider]

However, I really do need you to answer this question. In your opinion, do you consider Suresh Raina, Gautam Gambhir and Rohit Sharma to be bad players of the short-pitched ball? This is VERY important because it is central to our differing opinions on whether the commentary was biased or not. I'd appreciate it if you could provide me an answer to this question.

Gambhir was not too bad - he got beaten by a few really good bouncers which would have troubled most batsmen, but was good enough to score at around run a ball which was his job. Raina looked completely out of depth - I don't know why you are invoking South Africa. Just because the IPL was played in South Africa does not mean the pitches were hard and bouncy. Rohit did not last long enough in either match, but the front foot pull shot he got out on against WI was technically very poor.

I've already responded to that post (if you havent already read it). I invoked those test victories to counter the popular perception that is being thrown around that our players are not good players of quick, short-pitched stuff. I did NOT use those test match peformances to defend specific players.

I think I already answered that in another post :

I've never heard any commentator worth his salt say that the likes of Tendulkar, Dravid, and Laxman cannot play the short ball. They might say Ganguly and Sehwag are not very comfortable against the short ball but invariably add the caveat that they have been successful despite that and have their own way of dealing with the short stuff. And anyone who saw Raina and Jadeja bat can safely say that they cannot play the short ball.

[Cricketics]

Don't drag gambhir in the players who can't play short pitch bowling. It's only raina who can't. Rohit and Gmahbir are good at playing it. Gambhir ahs shown in NZ also where he faced stand out bowler Chris Martin who bowled fantastically well against India couple of months ago.

[Ram]

I know it hurts like hell, Sriram. Accused of not being able to play short, fast bowling is about on par with being told you can't produce fast bowlers because you are weak & skinny. Just let it go. It's true, the first bit that is. Bishop was in the side that bowled India out for 83 chasing 125. He won't have any respect for us. Truth is, India have lost a great deal of respect by capitulating the way they did v WI & SL. It won't matter that we are above these two teams in both Tests & ODIs. People will seize on this opportunity to generalise, much as all Pakistani bowlers as tarred as ball tamperers here. Way to shut people up? Beat them in their backyard. It's no coincidence that Nasser & Bishop have only just start talking stuff about India after keeping their counsel for several years. Have bad news for you though. India are headed in just one direction- down. I'll discuss the reasons another time. You better get used to these kind of putdownns.

It does hurt badly, to see some of our most promising youngsters being branded incapable and inadequate in certain areas of batting. I truly believe that is not the case. I am not saying our batsmen are picture perfect, but I do think they have the skill and mental toughness to persevere and adjust. The last thing I want coming out of this entire episode is to see an incredibly talented, promising and hard-working player like Suresh Raina being bogged down by all the name-calling and branding.

I've never heard any commentator worth his salt say that the likes of Tendulkar, Dravid, and Laxman cannot play the short ball. They might say Ganguly and Sehwag are not very comfortable against the short ball but invariably add the caveat that they have been successful despite that and have their own way of dealing with the short stuff. And anyone who saw Raina and Jadeja bat can safely say that they cannot play the short ball

I am not defending Raina’s capacity to handle the short-ball Shwetabh. The fundamental point I am trying to make here is – Our batsmen’s inability to deal with the short-pitched stuff was ONE of the reasons why we lost, not THE biggest reason. I don’t want us to be branded poor player of short-pitched stuff, which is what is happening currently, based on a couple of T20 games. The actual evidence suggests otherwise.

[Dhondy]

You are in denial, Sriram.

[Ram]

You are in denial' date=' Sriram.[/quote'] Doc, how can just two T20 matches be the source of a raging debate about our ability to handle short-pitched stuff? How come everything seemed fine just a week ago and all of a sudden, we have all sort of doubts about players’ capabilities? Don’t you think there’s something fundamentally flawed about that?

[Shehezaada]

Let's have a look at our Test Lineup: Sehwag, Gambhir, Dravid, Tendulkar, Laxman, Yuvraj How many times have people come out and said one, or all these guys can't play the short ball? They said it about Tendulkar when he faced SA in Ireland, then he pulled them to pieces. Hayden said it about Laxman in Australia, then Laxman batted like a madman in that series. The point is that when there a couple of games where India are struggling against the short ones....here comes the record player "Indians are scared", "India can't play hostile quick bowling because they bat on graveyards at home". people are very quick to pounce on a "weakness", when all it really is that a bowler has bowled a quick ball VERY well, or your coming from pitches that were slow and all of a sudden your on a bouncy track. You can see with our test team, they are often able to adapt later in the series, and then the voices quiet down. Having said all that stuff though...there is a difference between struggling against the short ball because of lack of preparation, and struggling because of lack of skill. Unfortunately, I can't defend the T20 team this time around because a couple of players look like they don't have the right skills in playing the pull shot. Suresh Raina, in particular, takes his eye off the ball and has no wristwork in his pull shot. He's also very quick to come out onto the front foot, and any bowler/captain is going to pepper him with short balls to keep him tucked up. Haven't seen too much of Ravindra Jadeja but he looked awful in the game against England, another guy who's a front foot player. Dhoni as well because of his backlift doesn't look comfortable. Nothing to worry about, anyone can improve their pull shot or backfoot glace t. In order to prepare for when I play on a very bouncy wicket, I always get a team mate to chuck a rubber ball at my ribs so I can practice the hook, pull, or glance. I also take two garbage cans and put one at midwicket and one at square leg to practice placement. Practice makes perfect In comes Suresh Raina....favorite shot, pull shot. I wonder why when he can't play it.

[Dhondy]

Doesn't matter- pace, spin...it's all the same to these young lads. Equally vulnerable under the merest hint of pressure. I hope you have your answer, Sriram. It's not the technique, it's the temparament.

[Shehezaada]

oh boy...dhoni 5/12...he's going to get roasted. This is Dhoni's first test both as a player and as a captain. The media's going to be ALL over him. Let's see how he responds. I think he's level headed enough to start focussing on the ODI series in the West Indies.

[bear23]

the reason this team is getting grilled is not because they lost one or 2 games. They are over rated. The only teams they have beaten are minnows.

[graphic23]

I am not fond of Nasser Hussain either (Bishop has been pretty good most of the time, really). But what is scary about the OP and mm's opinions is that you're pretty afraid to give away that the younger batsmen are unable to handle pace with bounce. I don't see anything wrong with it. Yes, Raina did well in SA but they were slow and aided spin more than bounce. Even last year in IPL, I've seen pull a ball outside off but the ball was slow and didn't raise all that much. I am not quite sure what would be a harm in accepting that our top order will be found out with pace and bounce in the next few months or over the immediate next season. I think it is better that they be found out now because they're only 20-22 years of age, and they can work on it and still have a fruitful career ahead of them.

[The Outsider]

Today's match at least dispelled the myth that we cannot play short pitch bowling. We proved that we are an equal opportunity team and look like clowns in front of Botha, de Merwe, and Duminy on a turner as well.

[King]

The minute you mix Twenty20, ODIs and test cricket it's a failed thread. It is true the team was bounced out in the Twenty20s, no doubt about that. India will not get bounced out in test cricket or ODIs but the question currently being asked is not about other formats but Twenty20s. There are a lot of issues with this Twenty20 team (again I'm not talking about other formats). NZ won two Twenty20s against India in NZ. India hasn't a good record in Twenty20s after the last Twenty20 WC. To conclude India is not a good Twenty20 and rightly are out of the tourney beaten by all and sundry including England. BTW do not belittle India's achievement in ODIs and test cricket going by these failures in Twenty20s.

[maggot_brain]

Are people forgetting the final ODI we played in NZ recently? The first four matches we walloped them on flattish pitches. Given a pitch with something in it for the seamers and our batting capitulated.

[King]

Are people forgetting the final ODI we played in NZ recently? The first four matches we walloped them on flattish pitches. Given a pitch with something in it for the seamers and our batting capitulated.

How about the last test match in Wellington? That was played on a tough pitch, India did just fine there and almost won it but for rain.

[Shehezaada]

Are people forgetting the final ODI we played in NZ recently? The first four matches we walloped them on flattish pitches. Given a pitch with something in it for the seamers and our batting capitulated.

Headingly, Wellington, Johannesberg, Jamaica, Belfast