Prasad and Robin have been sacked by BCCI

[Crookbond]

Maadar! Too much of talk happening without some data. I decided to burn my fingers through sift to understand more. Test Matches During Venkatesh Prasad as bowling coach [table=head]Team Mat Won Lost Tied Draw W/L Ave RPO HS LS India 12 5 1 0 6 5.00 36.42 3.03 577 121 in India India 4 1 2 0 1 0.50 41.76 3.72 563 212 in Australia India 3 1 0 0 2 - 32.98 3.34 369 198 in England India 3 1 0 0 2 - 35.21 3.34 619 197 in New Zealand India 3 1 2 0 0 0.50 40.71 3.28 600 136 in Sri Lanka Overall 25 9 5 0 11 1.80 37.07 3.24 619 121[/table] After Venkatesh Prasad as bowling coach [table=head]Team Span Mat Won Lost Tied Draw W/L Ave RPO HS LS India 2009-2012 15 10 1 0 4 10.00 33.70 3.15 760 134 in India India 2010-2010 2 2 0 0 0 - 27.20 3.56 312 233 in Bangladesh India 2010-2011 3 1 1 0 1 1.00 37.93 3.66 620 131 in South Africa India 2010-2010 3 1 1 0 1 1.00 59.40 3.67 642 267 in Sri Lanka India 2011-2011 3 1 0 0 2 - 23.73 2.76 322 173 in West Indies India 2011-2012 4 0 4 0 0 0.00 51.56 3.77 659 240 in Australia India 2011-2011 4 0 4 0 0 0.00 59.76 3.83 710 221 in England Overall 2009-2012 34 15 11 0 8 1.36 38.04 3.37 760 131[/table] ODIs During Venkatesh Prasad as bowling coach [table=head]Team Mat Won Lost Tied NR W/L Ave RPO HS LS India 17 10 6 0 1 1.66 35.52 5.67 322 193 in India India 10 7 3 0 0 2.33 26.74 4.84 320 142 in Sri Lanka India 10 5 3 0 2 1.66 27.52 4.88 317 159 in Australia India 6 4 2 0 0 2.00 39.75 5.63 309 118 in Pakistan India 7 3 4 0 0 0.75 44.00 5.71 320 - in England India 5 3 1 0 1 3.00 35.26 6.39 334 334 in New Zealand India 3 2 1 0 0 2.00 31.60 5.36 315 190 in Bangladesh India 1 1 0 0 0 - 22.55 4.41 203 - in Scotland Overall 59 35 20 0 4 1.75 33.24 5.41 334 118[/table] After Venkatesh Prasad as bowling coach [table=head]Team Span Mat Won Lost Tied NR W/L Ave RPO HS LS India 2009-2011 38 28 8 1 1 3.50 31.87 5.40 411 103 in India India 2009-2012 17 11 6 0 0 1.83 28.70 5.29 307 118 in Sri Lanka India 2010-2012 9 6 3 0 0 2.00 38.84 5.59 329 213 in Bangladesh India 2009-2011 9 5 3 0 1 1.66 33.45 5.21 319 319 in West Indies India 2012-2012 8 3 4 1 0 0.75 38.94 5.50 320 - in Australia India 2009-2011 8 3 4 0 1 0.75 27.61 5.11 302 129 in South Africa India 2010-2010 4 1 3 0 0 0.33 47.52 5.39 289 242 in Zimbabwe India 2011-2011 5 0 3 1 1 0.00 39.33 6.19 270 - in England Overall 2009-2012 98 57 34 3 4 1.67 32.86 5.40 411 103[/table]

[Crookbond]

Interesting fact - the W/L ratio has gone down from 1.80 to 1.36 in Test matches and 1.75 to 1.67 in ODIs after Prasad has left as a bowling coach. There is a definite correlation but causation may not be trivial to prove.

[Number]

Interesting fact - the W/L ratio has gone down from 1.80 to 1.36 in Test matches and 1.75 to 1.67 in ODIs after Prasad has left as a bowling coach. There is a definite correlation but causation may not be trivial to prove.

After Prasad left Sreesanth and Zaheer bowled well in SL series in those 2 games which we won. We won against Australia Zaheer, Ishant, Sree did pretty well. Against SA away Zaheer and Sree were brilliant. then in WI Ishant, PK did well. I'm not saying he was a bad coach but there is not a gulf of difference between our pacers performances before and just after he left. It was after England 2011 when we started falling apart and the main reason I think was Zaheer's good patch ended thereafter. W/L ratio had to come down because we had 8-0.

[CG]

After Prasad left Sreesanth and Zaheer bowled well in SL series in those 2 games which we won. We won against Australia Zaheer, Ishant, Sree did pretty well. Against SA away Zaheer and Sree were brilliant. then in WI Ishant, PK did well. I'm not saying he was a bad coach but there is not a gulf of difference between our pacers performances before and just after he left. It was after England 2011 when we started falling apart and the main reason I think was Zaheer's good patch ended thereafter. W/L ratio had to come down because we had 8-0.

we did well due to individual brilliance,Under prasad we seemed to have plans like using cutters or cross seam deliveries and i can say the 8-1 field might have been his idea too.I can ishant sharma improved a lot under prasad he improved his seam position and taught him slower balls.i liked his attitude of wanting bowlers to bowl off full run up in nets and steçÎ in.

[CG]

Are you serious? :ohmy:

I am, you should have been there some icfers celebrated as they thought suddenly pace was going to come back.

[Crookbond]

After Prasad left Sreesanth and Zaheer bowled well in SL series in those 2 games which we won. We won against Australia Zaheer, Ishant, Sree did pretty well. Against SA away Zaheer and Sree were brilliant. then in WI Ishant, PK did well. I'm not saying he was a bad coach but there is not a gulf of difference between our pacers performances before and just after he left. It was after England 2011 when we started falling apart and the main reason I think was Zaheer's good patch ended thereafter. W/L ratio had to come down because we had 8-0.

I agree mate - statistics are not the perfect measure and this is a very good example. I just wanted to see if it reflects the real life. Another insight - our ODI bowling averages are lower in ODI's at home AFTER Prasad left as a bowling coach with more than twice of the W/L ratio. :D

[msb1991]

The IPL lasts 50 days out of which 15 are spent playing matches and another 15 or so traveling. You expect Prasad to transform bowlers in 15-20 days?

And I'd guess a lot of those days would be rest days too.

[G_B_]

After Prasad left Sreesanth and Zaheer bowled well in SL series in those 2 games which we won. We won against Australia Zaheer, Ishant, Sree did pretty well. Against SA away Zaheer and Sree were brilliant. then in WI Ishant, PK did well. I'm not saying he was a bad coach but there is not a gulf of difference between our pacers performances before and just after he left. It was after England 2011 when we started falling apart and the main reason I think was Zaheer's good patch ended thereafter. W/L ratio had to come down because we had 8-0.

bingo otherwise there would have been a drop immediately after Prasad left. If anything we need to get the bowling coach from Warwickshire(was that the county?) to be the Indian national team coach cause he was the one who brought Zaheer back to form.

[G_B_]

I don't see us winning a series in NZ with our current squad. And neither did we win a series in NZ for years and years before we won the last won. And Ishant did bowl well on that tour, despite the shoddy opposition. You seem to be concentrating more on the results rather than the actual quality of bowling plans and techniques that were employed. For example, you have discarded the Australian tour to India in '08 in which the cross seam reverse swing was used by Zaheer and Ishant and also again against England later in the year. Forget about the results, why was this successful ploy shelved after Prasad?

well you were the one who wanted to discard all home performances due to spinners ruling the roost. We have won nearly all our series at home barring a 1-1 draw v SA at home. This was before Prasad and after Prasad. The last time we lost a series at home was in 2004 v Aus. I also have to be honest. I can very well see us winning in NZ. I would rate WI as being the stronger of the two outfits as of now.

[Ram]

I am not attributing Zaheer's success to Prasad. However' date=' during his tenure our bowlers, even rookies, seemed to bowl to a much better plan than they have been doing since. Do I have definite proof for it? No. I don't think Prasad was some genius who could transform bowlers' techniques or infuse in them the motivation to bowl 30 overs a day, but he was pretty good tactically in my opinion.[/quote'] That answer is quite disappointing. I was expecting something a little bit more concrete than just 'I have a few premises, but there's no way I can prove any of that'. By the way, I agree with your correlation vs causation theory. I think too much blame/credit gets unduly dumped on individuals in the world of sports all the time.

[The Outsider]

That answer is quite disappointing. I was expecting something a little bit more concrete than just 'I have a few premises, but there's no way I can prove any of that'.

Well, how can you provide a "concrete proof" for any of such things unless you are part of the squad which Prasad and Dawes trained? And even then, it would be anecdotal unless someone went through the pains of releasing videos of actual training sessions etc. My observation has been that as a bowling unit we have lacked proper plans and techniques to bowl against particular batsmen under particular circumstances after Prasad's departure - not necessarily on a W/L ratio or average runs conceded per wicket, which I can "prove".

[saneindian]

While the focus is on Venky, what about Robin Singh? What have the coaches, who have come into the setup and fielding coach since his sacking, been doing? Also with hindsight, I believe Kirsten wanted to get his own men (Upton and Erci Simmons) into the setup and the t20 and CT debacles in 2009 provided a perfect opportunity to do that.

[msb1991]

The discussion raises a lot of interesting questions about what people want a bowling coach to do and what can be reasonably expected of them. I think bowling coach at international level should be mainly a mentoring and research role. The mentoring aspect is fairly self-explanatory and would include player support and deciding if a player is so out of form that they are not mentally in the right place to play. The research role would come to seeing what lengths have been successful at certain grounds and certain conditions as well as assessing the weaknesses of players and thinking about how those can be exploited. The thing which causes confusion and worry is that it would seem that there is not a large scientific academy (like in England or Australia) to assess actions nor a large amount of highly qualified domestic coaches to tweak actions and coach things like slower balls or teach swing into bowlers. Therefore, too much becomes expected of the international bowling coach. I think it is wrong to think that the international bowling coach should be someone who'd also be the best at coaching a youngster or raw talent. I'd say the roles are completely different. Regarding a fielding coach, I think Robin Singh was a good man for the role. As a good fielder in his day, he would have the respect of the boys. However, I think it is wrong to think that you have to be a great fielder to be a great fielding coach. I think good fielding coaching is about being able to construct or implement fun fielding drills which drill good habits into people. I also think good team fielding is about sheer practice - something which anyone can do. I also think it is important for conditioning staff to ensure a bowler has the energy, flexibility and muscle endurance to be able to field to a reasonable quality after an over or spell. The liabilities in the field for India are the tired bowlers whereas people like Anderson and Brett Lee are two of the best fielders for their respective teams.

[King Tendulkar]

The thoeries are dumb. Just cos a player was not a pace bower etc. Does that mean as a coach that they automotically instruct players to be like how they used to. Its ridiculous. Its like if a player batted left handed and then as a coach tried to make all the batters bat left handed as well and discouraged right handed batting. The whole Prasad making bowlers bowl slower is based on zero facts but is just a made up internet theory.