Rameez Raja was a better batsman than Hammond

[Bumper]

And did you see the lofted straight drive and flick? Was anything wrong with those? It is just one clip and Sehwag plays those kind of cover drives without moving his feet so many times.

Tell me you are kidding. I have never seen a modern day player who is called a great, look so ugly playing a cover drive. The bottom line is this. I have seen 1000s of shots played by Veeru. But i have hardly seen two clips of Jack Hobbs & in one of them he puts Mickey Mouse to shame playing a cover drive, and am supposed to believe that cricket in that era was as competitive as it is today ? Honestly we should be doing it the other way. Common sense suggests that all sports have progressively become competitive over the years & it takes some solid evidence to justify that the pre 50s era was as competitive as today. Certainly a cover drive a'la the one played by Jack Hobbs doesnt cut it. If OTOH, we had 100s of clips of Jack Hobbs that can vouch for his greatness, then i'd agree that this clip could be an exception.

I am merely taking the model that 100 of the 30s is 50 of the 00s and extrapolating it to other cricketers. As a quantitative person yourself, you would agree with me that any model should fit an entire data set and not just some isolated data points? When I try to do that I get results like Rameez is greater than Hammond, Chris Lewis is greater than Keith Miller, Ravindra Jadeja is greater than Mankad, Sami is greater than Lindwall, Farhat is greater than Hobbs, and Kaneria is greater than O'Reilly. If you believe these extrapolation results are sensible and that Farhat would have averaged 70+ had he played 60 years back, then I really have no more arguments.

I havent read all posts on this topic. But you are prolly taking what some one said casually in one thread and making arbitrary extrapolations to advance your point.

[yoda]

Once again, not a parallel argument Jesse Owens is definitely a great sprinter. No one would argue with that. But you dont call him the greatest ever, do you ? Wasn't Jesse Owens head & shoulders above his peers ? Had Bradman been termed a great, no one would dispute that. Calling him the greatest ever solely based on his averages is where the problem lies.

Actually people do. http://bleacherreport.com/articles/242389-usain-bolt-or-jesse-owens-whos-berlin-performance-was-more-impressive Another quote:

Think about this we talking about this we are talking about Jesse Owens and he has been dead for almost 30 years and he won his medals back in 1936. Yet we still talk about him among the Greats. To me that great in and of it self. 10 to 15 years from now well more the likely forget about Bolt and Lewis will fade a little farther away but the Legend of Owens will still remain.

There are many more such if you search around. To me he is the greatest simply because of what he did then under the circumstances of racism in the presence of someone like Hitler. And ofc he won 4 golds in the process. Some people transcend time. It doesn't matter if people in the future score more runs than them or run faster than them. They are always there, not just for the sake of it, but because of what they did then, even if it was many decades ago. Bradman for his unparalleled excellence when compared to his peers, Owens for reasons mentioned above, etc. So yes you can be faster, but not necessarily be greater than someone who ran 70 years ago, unless ofc your performance in the current times is more significant/greater than that performance in that period.

[King Tendulkar]

If you don't think Ranjitsinhji is a legend, then you certainly are a legend! He is considered a great batsmen by every cricket expert. His average in those days was indeed stupendous and so was his overall contribution to cricket. One of the reasons I can think of as to why he missed out on the selections and shortlists is because he did not play too many test matches. And Barry Richards should have been excluded for the same reasons.

He is a legend. A great historical figure and pionner of cricket. A great of his time. Can you compare a player in quality from 120 years ago or 70 years ago to modern player. According to you yes and according to you they are actually better the a tendulkar or ponting. The reality is very different. Really there should be two teams. One for pre developed cricket era, to one post developed cricket era. As really cricket become developed in terms of competition pool and tactics from around 70s onwards. Before that cricket was frankly a different game played in totally different way(despite what the romantic nostalagia clan claim), just such different tactics and techniques.

[King Tendulkar]

As for Jessie Owens he was again in a non competitive era. We all know blacks run the fastest in 100m. Back then USA was only one with black athletes as only other competition was UK etc with no blacks. Now in 2010 we have Jamacia sprinters eg BOLT. Competition is much greater now as so many countries developed athletics including great jamacians. Jamicans will rightly say BOLT is the best and owens run in non competitive era! Owens had no jamicans to compete with then(not developed sports then), if there were then may have been usurped due to greater competition. Just like Bradman was again king of small pool, as no indians , windies etc etc Just like in long distance running back in 30s gora dominated as africans not sport orientated then. Now world does sports and Kenyans laugh at a czech guy trying to out run him in 10,000m. In bygone era, sportsman were big fish in small pond(pond was just full of gora nations). To compare them to modern greats in ultra competitive era is nuts. Oldies are sporting historical figures and pioners, just leave it at that! To compare to modern sportsman just brings them open to analysis and then ridicule eg check out hobbs video!

[King Tendulkar]

So you think Ussain Bolt is the greatest ever? The the guy who passes him in a few years will then become the greatest ever?

Yes read my post above. Owens beat a bunch of white guys( no white guys has reached an olymic 100m final for like a zillion years)! Just imagine if Bolt only ran against white guys:cantstop:

[zen]

And the post# where I claim sledging = "determining factor" is which one ? Infact on the very first page of that thread ( post# 3 : http://www.indiancricketfans.com/showpost.php?p=1204989&postcount=3 ) I list the 10 points that affect run making. These are the same 10 points that I have been talking about since this DGB discussion first started many yrs ago when you werent even around on this forum.

So now you are saying is that you have to specify something that you write as a "determining factor" for us to consider as one. Which means that you can basically trype anything what you want and when you are caught out you post your "10 points" as if you never made any addition to that. A couple of additions that you made based on your senseless posting: 1. Captains placed 3 slips and 1 guilly when Bradman's on 100* 2. What was Bradman's avg when he was sledded ----> sledging is a determing factor keep it up!

[Sachinism]

So now you are saying is that you have to specify something that you write as a "determining factor" for us to consider as one. Which means that you can basically trype anything what you want and when you are caught out you post your "10 points" as if you never made any addition to that. A couple of additions that you made based on your senseless posting: 1. Captains placed 3 slips and 1 guilly when Bradman's on 100* 2. What was Bradman's avg when he was sledded ----> sledging is a determing factor keep it up!

You're nitpicking now

[King Tendulkar]

As for Jessie Owens he was again in a non competitive era. We all know blacks run the fastest in 100m. Back then USA was only one with black athletes as only other competition was UK etc with no blacks. Now in 2010 we have Jamacia sprinters eg BOLT. Competition is much greater now as so many countries developed athletics including great jamacians. Jamicans will rightly say BOLT is the best and owens run in non competitive era! Owens had no jamicans to compete with then(not developed sports then), if there were then may have been usurped due to greater competition. Just like Bradman was again king of small pool, as no indians , windies etc etc Just like in long distance running back in 30s gora dominated as africans not sport orientated then. Now world does sports and Kenyans laugh at a czech guy trying to out run him in 10,000m. In bygone era, sportsman were big fish in small pond(pond was just full of gora nations). To compare them to modern greats in ultra competitive era is nuts. Oldies are sporting historical figures and pioners, just leave it at that! To compare to modern sportsman just brings them open to analysis and then ridicule eg check out hobbs video!

For yoda, this was my post on owens

[The Outsider]

Rameez Raja, on his 12 favorite grounds, averaged 59.05, more than Hammond's career average! :omg:

[zen]

Rameez Raja' date=' on his 12 favorite grounds, averaged 59.05 more than Hammond's career average! :omg:[/quote'] Rameez PS add this point to the OP :yay:

[ravishingravi]

Rameez also had to play in the match fixing era leading to increased pressure in the knowledge that some of his team mates were cheating and may have asked him to under perform' date=' this mental strain must have affected rameez performance in a major way.[/quote'] :hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical:

[Temujin Khaghan]

Rameez had thick wavy beautiful hair to take care of besides his batting average... Hammond's hair was god gifted - it stuck to his brains.

[saket123]

quick.. delete this thread before Rameez Raza finds out there are people still talking about his cricketing days.

[Indiawin]

F u c k Ramiz Raza, who is this guy

[The Outsider]

Point # 14 added to make it a slam dunk for Rameez bhai. 14. Rameez Raja played in an era when wins and losses meant much more than in Hammond's era.

[Lurker]

#15. Rameez Raja travelled in First class by plane, still does. Hammond was made to travel by train, and ships.

[The Outsider]

#15. Rameez Raja travelled in First class by plane' date=' still does. Hammond was made to travel by train, and ships.[/quote'] Isn't that covered in #9? :dontknow:

[ravishingravi]

Yup Lads in those good ol' days didn't care for records or wins. Just a game like Sunday league with cup of ol' chai and beer later and so etimes during the games. Ashes is hype.

[Lurker]

Isn't that covered in #9? :dontknow:

Nope. Since Indians typically associate greatness with opulence, 15 shows Rameez Raja was rich, in skills and greatness bestowed on him. Hammond was thud klass and surely travelled like that too

[zen]

Another point: * Rameez showed his prowess in ODIs by hitting some 9 ODI 100 and won the world cup in 1992, while Hammond ....