Composition of our bowling attack for WC - Seamers Vs Spinners

[Ram]

Shwetabh, I was obviously not going to completely ignore your earlier post. I wanted to do some ground work begore responding to it. I will post that reply soon, in addition to the response to your subsequent post.

[Tendulkar_Bhai]

what u r suggesting is to give 10 overs regularly to part timers.plus the overs they r bound to fill in for wen someone get thrashed.Sorry thats too much to ask of them.they r batsmen n should concentrate mainly on that.last thing we can afford is thier batting to get affected with this increased workload. as for going in with 2 seamers,I dont see anyone doing that.with 20 overs of PP plus death overs.spinners may be our strength but they cant be expected to bowl in PPs.they'll be even worse than seamers.

Some of the posts by Marirs are so longed out it makes painful reading! But i agree with you, India's strength in India has always come from 2 good spinners but we only have 1 remaining i.e. Bhajji, so dont think we should play Ojha/Chawla just for the sake of it, as you said in the PP's they will go for easy runs. Pitches in India are no longer spinning sandpits as we used to see. As it stands i would go for Zaheer, Kumar, Ishant/Munaf and Bhajji, then Irfan at 7 then plenty of spinning options from Shewag/UV.

[Fontaine]

Why the hell should I care about stats when I can see with own eyes how effective Praveen Kumar and Zaheer Khan can be with the new ball with any sort of help off the pitch or in the air? It's the other teams like England, SA, Australia that should worry about their fast bowlers who've made absolutely clear that bowling in the subcontinent is so difficult. I'm tired of people underestimating our seamers when time and time again all they've done is outbowl foreign teams in their own backyard. In the world cup I'll guarantee it'll be our new ball bowlers like PK and Khan that'll do the early damage and it'll be our spinners that will find it tough in the middle overs.

[Manny_Pacquiao]

Why the hell should I care about stats when I can see with own eyes how effective Praveen Kumar and Zaheer Khan can be with the new ball with any sort of help off the pitch or in the air? It's the other teams like England, SA, Australia that should worry about their fast bowlers who've made absolutely clear that bowling in the subcontinent is so difficult. I'm tired of people underestimating our seamers when time and time again all they've done is outbowl foreign teams in their own backyard. In the world cup I'll guarantee it'll be our new ball bowlers like PK and Khan that'll do the early damage and it'll be our spinners that will find it tough in the middle overs.

i agree, even said similar on my own thread. in praveen, zaheer, and nehra we have a bowling attack that can wreck good batting lineups. on flat pitches, niether bowler - either seamer or spinner will make much of a difference that can influence the result. on the gwaliors and rajkots the role of a bowler is to contain and nothing else. i doubt we will get flat pitches at the WC though. they will probably take a bit of spin and help seamers under lights.

[Ram]

Why the hell should I care about stats when I can see with own eyes how effective Praveen Kumar and Zaheer Khan can be with the new ball with any sort of help off the pitch or in the air? It's the other teams like England, SA, Australia that should worry about their fast bowlers who've made absolutely clear that bowling in the subcontinent is so difficult. I'm tired of people underestimating our seamers when time and time again all they've done is outbowl foreign teams in their own backyard. In the world cup I'll guarantee it'll be our new ball bowlers like PK and Khan that'll do the early damage and it'll be our spinners that will find it tough in the middle overs.

i agree, even said similar on my own thread. in praveen, zaheer, and nehra we have a bowling attack that can wreck good batting lineups. on flat pitches, niether bowler - either seamer or spinner will make much of a difference that can influence the result. on the gwaliors and rajkots the role of a bowler is to contain and nothing else. i doubt we will get flat pitches at the WC though. they will probably take a bit of spin and help seamers under lights.

Had you guys seen our previous three home ODI series against Australia, Lanka and South Africa (and it looks like you obviously havent), you wouldnt be using terms like 'effective with new ball', 'help off the pitch or in the air', 'early damage', 'wreck batting line-ups' etc. Since Aug of 2009 at home, our seamers have been absolutely mullered at home, with a cumulative SR of 47 and an economy (if we can call it that) of 6.8. And you guys honestly expect the conditions to be any different for the WC? Just look at the sequence of scores we conceded against our three previous opponents at home; Australia - 292/8, 255 a.o, 229/5, 250 a.o, 350/4, 172/4 (42 overs) Sri Lanka - 411/8, 302/7, 239 a.o, 315/6 South Africa - 297 a.o, 248 a.o, 365/2 Thats an average, YES AVERAGE score of 296. And here are the cumulative performances of all our pacers during those three home series;

Bowler	Average	Economy
Nehra	42.83	6.633
Ishant	47.5	7.3
P.Kumar	67.33	6.14
Munaf	86	6.61
Zak	40	6.22
Sree	41	8.24
Ave.	[B]54.05	6.84[/B]

Thats right, put together, our seamers had a combined economy rate of 6.84 and an average of 54.05, and you guys still have faith in our pacers at home, after looking at those numbers?

[Manny_Pacquiao]

can i see the same stats for the spinners plz

[Ram]

can i see the same stats for the spinners plz

Bowler	Average	Economy
Bhajji	34	4.65
Jadeja	36.66	4.83
Raina	24	5.33
Yuvraj	94	4.7
Yusuf	38.5	5.31
Ave.	45.3	4.9

[Lord]

So the alternative is to stick with the status quo of 3 seamers and keep getting thrashed? Here’s the deal – No one quite knows how things will work out if spinners are forced to bowl in the PP overs, but here’s what we we know when our seamers are at the forefront of it – CARNAGE. You point to me two other cumulative series in the HISTORY of ODI cricket where the seamers, put together, had a SR of 47 and an economy of 6.4. That is exactly what happened, in our last two ODI series at home versus Sri Lanka and South Africa. And somehow that is acceptable? Inevitably, it is our batting that has kept bailing us out of these incredibly unfavorable situations. They cannot possibly do it EVERY single game. If that wasn’t enough, even B’desh thrashed our pacers around to post a near 300 total when we played against them.

somehow u tend to believe its only the pacers r getting tonked,spinners r ineffective too.difference is teams tend to play them safely as they r our main weapon.plus they dont bowl in PPs n slog overs,hence low economies as for part timers bowling 10+ overs regularly,its laughable.u really think we can trust them to Sehwag/Yuvraj to bowl 10 overs between them regularly,what if they get hammered,do we have any backup?part timers r supposed to be backup in case one chosen for the job fail,they shouldnt be doing it regularly.n Raina isnt an international bowler just like Yusuf n Sachin doesnt bowl anymore. n I'm not suggesting we should weaken our batting,Irfan is as good or close to the likes of Uthappa,R.Sharma.he can share the 5th bowler duties with part timers

[saneindian]

Just look at the sequence of scores we conceded against our three previous opponents at home; Australia - 292/8, 255 a.o, 229/5, 250 a.o, 350/4, 172/4 (42 overs) Sri Lanka - 411/8, 302/7, 239 a.o, 315/6 South Africa - 297 a.o, 248 a.o, 365/2 Thats an average, YES AVERAGE score of 296.

Look at the runs we scored in those matches: vs Australia- 288/8, 354/7, 230/4, 226, 347, 170 vs Sri Lanka- 414/7, 301/7, 243/3, 317/3 vs South Africa- 298/9, 401/3, 275 That s an average score of 295 runs scored every match at the rate of 7+!! Do we see Australia and SA saying we need to take a look at our bowling attack? On flat roads, even the best of bowling attacks will look as bad as ours. Give the same set of pacers some help on the pitch and our bowling is as good as any other attack.

[Fontaine]

Had you guys seen our previous three home ODI series against Australia, Lanka and South Africa (and it looks like you obviously havent), you wouldnt be using terms like 'effective with new ball', 'help off the pitch or in the air', 'early damage', 'wreck batting line-ups' etc. Since Aug of 2009 at home, our seamers have been absolutely mullered at home, with a cumulative SR of 47 and an economy (if we can call it that) of 6.8. And you guys honestly expect the conditions to be any different for the WC? Just look at the sequence of scores we conceded against our three previous opponents at home; Australia - 292/8, 255 a.o, 229/5, 250 a.o, 350/4, 172/4 (42 overs) Sri Lanka - 411/8, 302/7, 239 a.o, 315/6 South Africa - 297 a.o, 248 a.o, 365/2 Thats an average, YES AVERAGE score of 296.

Why don't you post the numbers for the bowlers of those countries bowling in those same pitches? Without that comparison it's just a lot of hot air

[zen]

If you look at this thread, the pro-30 overs of spin arguments that have already been addressed to (thrown out) are being unnecessarily repeated as if the next time, magically, they would have a different meaning. Also basic points like when the seamers bowl, how many runs our batsmen score against the opponent, etc have been ignored. What we are suppose to see is basically our spinners', who mainly bowl during middle overs, economy vs our pace bowlers' economy, who usually bowl during PP and at the death! What a fair comparison? :hehe: May be the kid thinks other people have two horns on their heads Kid: A, B, C : X, Y, Z Only value of this thread is in its comic relief value :P

[Sir john]

2 full spinners+3 part time spinners + 1 medium pacer + fast bowler. :two_thumbs_up:

[Fontaine]

Had you guys seen our previous three home ODI series against Australia, Lanka and South Africa (and it looks like you obviously havent), you wouldnt be using terms like 'effective with new ball', 'help off the pitch or in the air', 'early damage', 'wreck batting line-ups' etc. Since Aug of 2009 at home, our seamers have been absolutely mullered at home, with a cumulative SR of 47 and an economy (if we can call it that) of 6.8. And you guys honestly expect the conditions to be any different for the WC? Just look at the sequence of scores we conceded against our three previous opponents at home; Australia - 292/8, 255 a.o, 229/5, 250 a.o, 350/4, 172/4 (42 overs) India scored: 288/8, 354/7, 230/4, 226, 347 ao, 170 ao Sri Lanka - 411/8, 302/7, 239 a.o, 315/6 India scored: 414/7, 301/7, 243/3, 317/3 South Africa - 297 a.o, 248 a.o, 365/2 India scored: 298, 401, 275.

I've included how the SA/Australian/Sri Lankan bowlers did against India. See how completely stupid and poorly thought your post is? You're whining and complaining about India's fast bowlers in the subcontinent when Australia conceded over 300 runs twice, South Africa conceded 300/400 run totals, and Sri Lanka conceded over 300 runs in all but ONE match. Now go smack yourself in the face and apologize 50 times to each Indian bowler.

[Ram]

I've included how the SA/Australian/Sri Lankan bowlers did against India. See how completely stupid and poorly thought your post is? You're whining and complaining about India's fast bowlers in the subcontinent when Australia conceded over 300 runs twice, South Africa conceded 300/400 run totals, and Sri Lanka conceded over 300 runs in all but ONE match. Now go smack yourself in the face and apologize 50 times to each Indian bowler.

Huh what? Calm down, hero.. calm down... I am saying 'our pacers have been unbelievably ineffective in our three most recent ODI series at home.. There's a almost 100% chance that, every time we step on the field', we'll end up conceding a 300 run total.. Therefore, there's at least a case to be made to revisit our bowling strategy..' and you're saying 'Never mind how our bowlers fare, as long our opposition bowlers suck as well..'? So your opinion of how well or poorly our bowlers perform is based entirely on the opposition bowlers' performance? I think you should apologize to yourself first to posting such a dumb argument to begin with. :hysterical: The whole essence of my argument has always been 'We have repeatedly relied upon our batsmen to bail us out.. It wont work every single time.. At some point, the batsmen will fail and come cropper.. We cannot have bowlers conceded gargantuan totals, almost by default...'

[Fontaine]

Huh what? Calm down, hero.. calm down... I am saying 'our pacers have been unbelievably ineffective in our three most recent ODI series at home.. There's a almost 100% chance that, every time we step on the field', we'll end up conceding a 300 run total.. Therefore, there's at least a case to be made to revisit our bowling strategy..' and you're saying 'Never mind how our bowlers fare, as long our opposition bowlers suck as well..'? So your opinion of how well or poorly our bowlers perform is based entirely on the opposition bowlers' performance? I think you should apologize to yourself first to posting such a dumb argument to begin with. :hysterical: The whole essence of my argument has always been 'We have repeatedly relied upon our batsmen to bail us out.. It wont work every single time.. At some point, the batsmen will fail and come cropper.. We cannot have bowlers conceded gargantuan totals, almost by default...'

Even though you have a completely one dimensional, poorly thought argument which has been blown apart you're still persisting with this line of stupidity? Well then here are the bowling stats of South African bowlers in their last tour to India. http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/records/averages/batting_bowling_by_team.html?id=5727;team=3;type=series Steyn averaged almost 60 with a strike of 56 in those three ODIs. Botha/Parnell also recorded similar if not worse figures. By your deluded logic South Africa should revisit their bowling strategy when it comes to Steyn/Botha/Parnell in ODI cricket in India like in the World Cup. Jadeja had the best series in averaging 24 for his 5 wickets at an economy of 4.26. I suppose South Africa should look into dropping with Steyn/Botha or Parnell and replacing one of them with a lesser talented all rounder who can't bowl or bat all that well, because that's after all what stats from flat batting tracks show right? Anyone with a barely functioning cricket brain would see the folly in judging bowlers based on flat batting decks, apart, from you. Congrats, you've shown just how simple minded you are.

[Ram]

Even though you have a completely one dimensional, poorly thought argument which has been blown apart you're still persisting with this line of stupidity? Well then here are the bowling stats of South African bowlers in their last tour to India. http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/records/averages/batting_bowling_by_team.html?id=5727;team=3;type=series Steyn averaged almost 60 with a strike of 56 in those three ODIs. Botha/Parnell also recorded similar if not worse figures. By your deluded logic South Africa should revisit their bowling strategy when it comes to Steyn/Botha/Parnell in ODI cricket in India like in the World Cup. Anyone with a barely functioning cricket brain would see the folly in judging bowlers based on flat batting decks, apart, from you. Congrats, you've shown just how simple minded you are.

To say that there's absolutely no need to review our bowling plans for the WC '11, because our opposition bowlers sucked is quite possibly the dumbest argument i have come across in a loooooong time. What next, theres' no need to Yuvraj Singh, because the opposition no.5 batsmen failed as well?

[Fontaine]

To say that there's absolutely no need to review our bowling plans for the WC '11' date= because our opposition bowlers sucked is quite possibly the dumbest argument i have come across in a loooooong time. What next, theres' no need to Yuvraj Singh, because the opposition no.5 batsmen failed as well?

Where did I say that? You're just making things up now because I've been kicking your ass in this thread. Are you blind as well as stupid? Nevermind. The answer is pretty obvious.

[Ram]

Where did I say that? You're just making things up now because I've been kicking your ass in this thread. Are you blind as well as stupid? Nevermind. The answer is pretty obvious.

Kicking ass? Lol, it is some wonderful imaginary world that you're living in... The very fact that your very first post in this thread was about singing the praises of of our fast bowlers, even as just within the last one week, coach Kirsten and ex skipper ganguly have openly expressed concerns about how the state of our fast bowling at home Odis could impact our WC chances, shows how horribly out of touch with reality you're. And you're standing here making completely generic statements about the awesomeness of our fast bowling? When was the last time you saw a home odi? 1998? :hysterical:

[Fontaine]

Kicking ass? Lol, it is some wonderful imaginary world that you're living in... The very fact that your very first post in this thread was about singing the praises of of our fast bowlers, even as just within the last one week, coach Kirsten and ex skipper ganguly have openly expressed concerns about how the state of our fast bowling at home Odis could impact our WC chances, shows how horribly out of touch with reality you're. And you're standing here making completely generic statements about the awesomeness of our fast bowling? When was the last time you saw a home odi? 1998? :hysterical:

All your bullsh*t aside the question still stands clown: Where did I say that there's absolutely no need to review our bowling plans for the WC '11?

[Ram]

Fontaine by day;

should I care about stats when I can see with own eyes how effective Praveen Kumar and Zaheer Khan can be with the new ball with any sort of help off the pitch or in the air? It's the other teams like England, SA, Australia that should worry about their fast bowlers who've made absolutely clear that bowling in the subcontinent is so difficult.

Fonataine by night;

All your bullsh*t aside the question still stands clown: Where did I say that there's absolutely no need to review our bowling plans for the WC '11?

:hysterical: