Composition of our bowling attack for WC - Seamers Vs Spinners

[Ram]

somehow u tend to believe its only the pacers r getting tonked' date='spinners r ineffective too.difference is teams tend to play them safely as they r our main weapon.plus they dont bowl in PPs n slog overs,hence low economies[/quote'] That’s just your theory, you cannot make simplistic assumptions like that and ask me disprove it. as for part timers bowling 10+ overs regularly,its laughable.u really think we can trust them to Sehwag/Yuvraj to bowl 10 overs between them regularly,what if they get hammered,do we have any backup?part timers r supposed to be backup in case one chosen for the job fail,they shouldnt be doing it regularly.n Raina isnt an international bowler just like Yusuf n Sachin doesnt bowl anymore.

Long long ago, so long ago, do you remember a tournament called the WC 2003? If you do, you’d also remember that we actually did rather well in that tournament and actually made it to the finals.. Why don’t you go back to that tournament and see how many bowlers we played and how many overs the part-timers bowled during each game?

If that doesn’t convince you, why don’t you also go back to what can arguably termed as the golden era of Indian ODI cricket, you know the era under Guru Greg when we won 16 consecutive ODI chases? The other highlight of this era was also the promotion of Irfan up the order. Why don’t you go back to those times as well and check how many overs our part-timers bowled each game? To even suggest that part-timers cannot bowl 10 overs/game is ludicrous, because it has happened in the Indian team since time immemorial and WE HAVE HAD SOME OF OUR MOST MEMORABLE WINS during those times. In fact, only since Jadeja made his debut, have we been encountering the situation where we have FIVE specialist bowlers in our ODI side.

n I'm not suggesting we should weaken our batting,Irfan is as good or close to the likes of Uthappa,R.Sharma.he can share the 5th bowler duties with part timers

Irfan’s is as good a batsmen as Uthappa/R Sharma? Ok, that ends the debate right there.

[Lord]

Long long ago, so long ago, do you remember a tournament called the WC 2003? If you do, you’d also remember that we actually did rather well in that tournament and actually made it to the finals.. Why don’t you go back to that tournament and see how many bowlers we played and how many overs the part-timers bowled during each game? If that doesn’t convince you, why don’t you also go back to what can arguably termed as the golden era of Indian ODI cricket, you know the era under Guru Greg when we won 16 consecutive ODI chases? The other highlight of this era was also the promotion of Irfan up the order. Why don’t you go back to those times as well and check how many overs our part-timers bowled each game? To even suggest that part-timers cannot bowl 10 overs/game is ludicrous, because it has happened in the Indian team since time immemorial and WE HAVE HAD SOME OF OUR MOST MEMORABLE WINS during those times. In fact, only since Jadeja made his debut, have we been encountering the situation where we have FIVE specialist bowlers in our ODI side.

what times are you living in?during that 2003 WC n also the chase streak u r talking about,there used to be 15 PP overs,now thats 20,with batting PP in there.doesnt that mean anything?u cant expect part timers on powerplays n also slog overs,so that leaves potentially only 20 overs within which we have to bowl our spinners.do u really think we can apply any sort of pressure with the part timers? I've checked 2-3 games of that chase streak n we r playing 5 bowlers there?:hmmm: WC 2003 was in SA so it is irrelevant. about Irfan,i've never said hes as good as Uthappa or Sharma,I'm saying hes not far off n he can compensate for it with his bowling if theres anything in the wicket.u cant be such a bad player if u have got a test hundred

[Ram]

what times are you living in?during that 2003 WC n also the chase streak u r talking about' date='there used to be 15 PP overs,now thats 20,with batting PP in there.doesnt that mean anything?u cant expect part timers on powerplays n also slog overs,so that leaves potentially only 20 overs within which we have to bowl our spinners.do u really think we can apply any sort of pressure with the part timers? [/quote'] Who said part-timers should bowl during PP/slog overs? You’re making it sound as though Virender Sehwag will be bowling during the first batting power play and Suresh Raina during the slog overs, which is an entirely wrong representation of what I said. The part-timers have to slot their quota b/w over number 15-35 (most teams actually take their final batting PP only during the death. So its not as dire a situation as you’re painting out to be, because the slot overs and the final PP generally co-incide. Even if they don’t, the final batting PP is generally taken during overs 33-40). And you want to talk about pressure? I see that our pacers are currently exerting a LOOOOOOT of pressure with their near 7 RPO economy and a bowling average touching the high 50s.

I've checked 2-3 games of that chase streak n we r playing 5 bowlers there?:hmmm: WC 2003 was in SA so it is irrelevant.

Huh? WC is irrelevant? What was it, a test match championship? If anything, the success of our part-timers in South Africa probably gives us more reasons why we try out the same strategy in India as well.

about Irfan,i've never said hes as good as Uthappa or Sharma,I'm saying hes not far off n he can compensate for it with his bowling if theres anything in the wicket.u cant be such a bad player if u have got a test hundred

You’re entirely MISSING the point. The question you need to ask yourself is – Does Irfan Pathan have the goods to deliver as a no.7 batsmen? Yes or no? There’s no point accommodating him in the team as a no.7 bat, knowing he doesn’t have the skill set to play there, just because he can roll the arm over. That is a self-defeating strategy.

[Fontaine]

Fontaine by day; Fonataine by night; :hysterical:

Like I thought, I said nothing of the sort.

[Lord]

Who said part-timers should bowl during PP/slog overs? You’re making it sound as though Virender Sehwag will be bowling during the first batting power play and Suresh Raina during the slog overs, which is an entirely wrong representation of what I said. The part-timers have to slot their quota b/w over number 15-35 (most teams actually take their final batting PP only during the death. So its not as dire a situation as you’re painting out to be, because the slot overs and the final PP generally co-incide. Even if they don’t, the final batting PP is generally taken during overs 33-40). And you want to talk about pressure? I see that our pacers are currently exerting a LOOOOOOT of pressure with their near 7 RPO economy and a bowling average touching the high 50s.

u say we r playing we r playing 5 specialist bowler since Jadeja's debut.check his stats.its equal to Yuvraj.hes essentially doing what a part timer can do.we need a better spinner to bowl in tandem with Bhajji what u r saying we should bowl Bhajji in PPs n part timers in middle overs?did i get that right? our pacers may have bad figures,but our spinners will be thrashed even more in PPs.did u see what happened to Jadeja in T20 WC?Bhajji went wicketless in that tournament bowling with the new ball,thats how successful it was. so our pacers r sucking we should play 9 bats n 2 spinners?:hysterical::hysterical:

Huh? WC is irrelevant? What was it, a test match championship? If anything, the success of our part-timers in South Africa probably gives us more reasons why we try out the same strategy in India as well.

why is that?the conditions r totally different.there wont be as much help in India's wickets

You’re entirely MISSING the point. The question you need to ask yourself is – Does Irfan Pathan have the goods to deliver as a no.7 batsmen? Yes or no? There’s no point accommodating him in the team as a no.7 bat, knowing he doesn’t have the skill set to play there, just because he can roll the arm over. That is a self-defeating strategy.

yes,he does have the goods,he can consolidate n can attack as well.its not like I'm asking him to get in a place a great finisher like MS or Yuvi,its Uthappa or Sharma,both r decent batsmen at best.

[zen]

Shwetabh' date=' I was obviously not going to completely ignore your earlier post. I wanted to do [u']some ground work begore responding to it. I will post that reply soon, in addition to the response to your subsequent post.

still digging? :hmmmm:

[Ram]

still digging? :hmmmm:

Yes actually.. Its pretty easy to counteract the self-contradicting, half-baked arguments that ex-grown ups who now pretend to be kids, make.. But it’s takes a lot more to work to argue against people who know what they’re talking about.. :P

[Ram]

Like I thought' date=' I said nothing of the sort.[/quote'] More like 'What I hoped..' The mere fact that you post gung-ho, belligerent claims like this;

Why the hell should I care about stats when I can see with own eyes how effective Praveen Kumar and Zaheer Khan can be with the new ball with any sort of help off the pitch or in the air?

in the backdrop of not just the performances of our seamers, but also the kinds of conditions we encountered in the last three home ODI series shows how completely disconnected from reality you are. Next time before you make such ludicrous arguments, make sure you know what you’re talking about.

[Ram]

u say we r playing we r playing 5 specialist bowler since Jadeja's debut.check his stats.its equal to Yuvraj.hes essentially doing what a part timer can do.we need a better spinner to bowl in tandem with Bhajji

Huh? Jadeja is essentially playing the team as the 5th bowlers. Even Dhoni has acknoweledged that.

"Jadeja needs to contribute more with bat. When he came into the team he was more of a batsman who could bowl. But now he has turned into more of a specialist bowler. He bowls at the death, he bowls in the power plays. So, I think he is the best potential we can turn into an all-rounder," Dhoni said ahead of Thursday's final in which India play Sri Lanka. The wicketkeeper-batsman said not having an in-form all-rounder was a concern. "The lack of an all-rounder is a big concern. If you want to play with five bowlers then one or two of them need to bat. Jadeja has got the potential. He has done well in the IPL and domestic games. Now, he has got fair amount of chances in international level also and we are hoping that he clicks," Dhoni said. "He has done well in the bowling department and can even be called a specialist bowler. We hope that he stands out with his batting performance because he is the kind of guy who can give you stability at number six or seven. There are not many players that you can fill the spot right now," he added.

http://www.espnstar.com/cricket/news/detail/item457612/ Still think Jadeja is playing as a part-timer? :P

what u r saying we should bowl Bhajji in PPs n part timers in middle overs?did i get that right?

It depends, If we have someone like Aswhin or Ojha or even Jadeja, they can share the burder on bowling in the PP overs with Bhajji, while the part-timers fill in their quota of 10 overs b/w overs 15-35 (which they have done for a looooooong time and right through WC 2003)

our pacers may have bad figures,but our spinners will be thrashed even more in PPs.did u see what happened to Jadeja in T20 WC?Bhajji went wicketless in that tournament bowling with the new ball,thats how successful it was.

I’ve had enough of this ‘Jadeja was thrashed in the T20 WC…’BS.. Yes, he was hit in two of the 4 games we played.. Against Australia, he had figures of 2 overs for 38, while against West Indies, it was 2 overs for 27. Its unfair and improper to come to an entire conclusion that that all spinners will get thrashed in PPs, based on 4 overs bowled by one particular bowler. Yea, Jadeja was hit, but even Dhoni has acknowledged that bowls well PPs otherwise. The fact is, we don’t really know how well our spinners will fare, bowling in PPs, because that strategy hasn’t really been tried out. But here’s what we know. The strategy of having a seam-dominated attack was tried across a 13-14 different matches, in a span of 6 months, against three different opponent in home conditions and here’s what we know – it was a miserable failure. The seamers were carted around like club bowlers.

why is that?the conditions r totally different.there wont be as much help in India's wickets

Huh? Indian tracks are a lot more spin friendly than South African tracks and if anything, lend themselves more towards a spin oriented attack.

yes,he does have the goods,he can consolidate n can attack as well.its not like I'm asking him to get in a place a great finisher like MS or Yuvi,its Uthappa or Sharma,both r decent batsmen at best.

BS. Irfan can attack? Show me three, yes, just THREEperformance of his, in his entire 100 match old ODI career, when he has come down at no.7/8 and won us a match when the asking rate was over 10? I don’t know what to say when you makes claims like Irfan as good a batsmen at no.7 as say a Rohit or Uthappa.. That’s completely nonsensical. You also make a whole load ridiculous generalizations that make counteracting your arguments almost impossible . For example, you say guys like Sehwag/Raina/Yuvraj bowling 3, 4 overs here and there will impact their batting, which is a load of bull. You also say Jadeja has been doing the role that Yuvraj has been doing, even though, CLEARLY, Yuvraj was a part-timer and Jadeja is playing more as a 5th bowler. And when I say a part-timers have to bowl 10 overs, you immediately misrepresent my position stating part-timers cannot be bowling in PPs and death overs, when quite clearly , they don’t HAVE to. You also make carte blanche assumptions that our spinners WILL be MORE expensive than our pacers in PP overs, (based on the experience of one particular bowler, in two isolated of one tournament), which is not a solid grounding for your argument.

[Lord]

Huh? Jadeja is essentially playing the team as the 5th bowlers. Even Dhoni has acknoweledged that. http://www.espnstar.com/cricket/news/detail/item457612/ Still think Jadeja is playing as a part-timer? :P

so why doesnt his numbers reflect that?why is his average equal to Yuvraj,if hes picked on his bowling ,surely Ojha can be picked ahead of him n why has same Dhoni bowled Jadeja for his full quota only 8 times out of 31 matches?

It depends, If we have someone like Aswhin or Ojha or even Jadeja, they can share the burder on bowling in the PP overs with Bhajji, while the part-timers fill in their quota of 10 overs b/w overs 15-35 (which they have done for a looooooong time and right through WC 2003)

I cant remember spinners bowling in PP even that WC.Bhajji bowled in the middle overs then n should do it now too,specially with 20 overs of PP

I’ve had enough of this ‘Jadeja was thrashed in the T20 WC…’BS.. Yes, he was hit in two of the 4 games we played.. Against Australia, he had figures of 2 overs for 38, while against West Indies, it was 2 overs for 27. Its unfair and improper to come to an entire conclusion that that all spinners will get thrashed in PPs, based on 4 overs bowled by one particular bowler. Yea, Jadeja was hit, but even Dhoni has acknowledged that bowls well PPs otherwise.

not that 4 only.I remember Dhoni giving Bhajji overs in PP wen Eng toured India n he got smoked there too.plus he went wicketless in T20 WC despite bowling well co teams played him out

The fact is, we don’t really know how well our spinners will fare, bowling in PPs, because that strategy hasn’t really been tried out. But here’s what we know. The strategy of having a seam-dominated attack was tried across a 13-14 different matches, in a span of 6 months, against three different opponent in home conditions and here’s what we know – it was a miserable failure. The seamers were carted around like club bowlers.

It was a miserable failure for everybody like Fontaine pointed out,yet nobody would bowl spinners in PP I can bet.

Huh? Indian tracks are a lot more spin friendly than South African tracks and if anything, lend themselves more towards a spin oriented attack.

yeah,but they r flat largely.we had a much better variety of part timers,left arm of Mongia,Yuvraj,off spin of Sehwag,leggies f SRT n medium pace of Ganguly.now all we have is Sehwag n Yuvraj.Sachin doesnt bowl now

BS. Irfan can attack? Show me three, yes, just THREEperformance of his, in his entire 100 match old ODI career, when he has come down at no.7/8 and won us a match when the asking rate was over 10?

n has many times has he failed?I dont think he encountered many such ocassions.I recall one such occasion in T20 n he won it for us with Yusuf n I never said he could always do it,but now his batting has got better,as for his attacking abilty,his T20 S/R is a good indicator

I don’t know what to say when you makes claims like Irfan as good a batsmen at no.7 as say a Rohit or Uthappa.

. huh?I said Irfan is CLOSE TO n NOT FAR OFF from Uthappa or Sharma,care to tell what they've done so magnificent to be streets ahead in different league to Irfan

That’s completely nonsensical. You also make a whole load ridiculous generalizations that make counteracting your arguments almost impossible . For example, you say guys like Sehwag/Raina/Yuvraj bowling 3, 4 overs here and there will impact their batting, which is a load of bull.

again I said it can affect not that it will affect.stop twisting my statements.ofcourse it isnt expected to affect thier batting since they r class player,but it just may.

You also say Jadeja has been doing the role that Yuvraj has been doing, even though, CLEARLY, Yuvraj was a part-timer and Jadeja is playing more as a 5th bowler.

why is his bowl avg. so bad then

And when I say a part-timers have to bowl 10 overs, you immediately misrepresent my position stating part-timers cannot be bowling in PPs and death overs, when quite clearly , they don’t HAVE to.

they may HAVE to,u r saying that everything would go according to ur plan n part timers will only have to bowl 10 overs always,what if Bhajji starts to get thrashed in PP,who do u bring in?part timers?or do u continue with a struggling Bhajji until PP finishes?I think u'll be forced to as u dont have any options.u dont want such situations,do you

You also make carte blanche assumptions that our spinners WILL be MORE expensive than our pacers in PP overs, (based on the experience of one particular bowler, in two isolated of one tournament), which is not a solid grounding for your argument.

I answered that ealier,Bhajji was allso bowling in PP n went wicketless n was thrashed wen he bowled in PP against Eng wen they toured in 2008.apart from IPL,how many have they done well in PPs

[Fontaine]

More like 'What I hoped..' The mere fact that you post gung-ho, belligerent claims like this; in the backdrop of not just the performances of our seamers, but also the kinds of conditions we encountered in the last three home ODI series shows how completely disconnected from reality you are. Next time before you make such ludicrous arguments, make sure you know what you’re talking about.

You're full of ****. You lied when you claimed I said we don't need to revisit our bowling strategy and nothing I've said comes close to what you claim. Just because I admire the way Praveen Kumar and Zaheer Khan use the new ball it must mean that I think we don't need to revisit our bowling strategy? Yeah, you've just proved again how dumb you are.

[zen]

Yes actually.. Its pretty easy to counteract the self-contradicting' date=' half-baked arguments that ex-grown ups who now pretend to be kids, make.. But it’s takes a lot more to work to argue against people who know what they’re talking about.. :P[/quote'] So you have nothing new to add :P Summery of your arguments: 1. For the WC, Ind has to have 30 overs of spin (i.e. play 2 seamers + 2 spinners + part time spinners) 2. Seamers get smashed, spinners don't. The proof is in the economy rate. The economy rate of seamers, who mainly bowl in PP and at death, can be compared with spinners', who mainly bowl during the middle overs So basically, according to you, if a spinner were to bowl in PP and at death, his economy would be the same as he would have when he bowls during the middle overs, w/ spread out field :hehe: Let us know, if you have anything different to say as these arguments of yours have already been thrown out :P

[Ram]

You're full of ****. You lied when you claimed I said we don't need to revisit our bowling strategy and nothing I've said comes close to what you claim. Just because I admire the way Praveen Kumar and Zaheer Khan use the new ball it must mean that I think we don't need to revisit our bowling strategy? Yeah, you've just proved again how dumb you are.

Ok, I've had enough of this comedy, So I'lll step aside and let Messers Fontaine embarrass... err... Messers Fontaine.. Parte 1; Seamers not grabbing opportunities - Kirsten (July 18, 2010) Indian pace bowling needs to improve before World Cup: Ganguly (11th August)

Why the hell should I care about stats when I can see with own eyes how effective Praveen Kumar and Zaheer Khan can be with the new ball with any sort of help off the pitch or in the air? I'm tired of people underestimating our seamers when time and time again all they've done is outbowl foreign teams in their own backyard. In the world cup I'll guarantee it'll be our new ball bowlers like PK and Khan that'll do the early damage and it'll be our spinners that will find it tough in the middle overs.

- Fontaine, Aug 17, 2010. :hysterical: Parte 2;

Where did I say that there's absolutely no need to review our bowling plans for the WC '11?

- Aug 18, 12:57 PM But only 26 hours earlier, here's this gem;

It's the other teams like England, SA, Australia that should worry about their fast bowlers who've made absolutely clear that bowling in the subcontinent is so difficult.

- Fontaine, Aug 17, 10:28 PM. Got it people? It is the OTHER teams that have worry about their fast bowling the subcontinent. And Since Fontaine has also claimed he never really said we dont need a review of our bowling plans, I think can safely say that he considers India as part 'of the other teams..' :hysterical::hysterical:

[Ram]

so why doesnt his numbers reflect that?why is his average equal to Yuvraj,if hes picked on his bowling ,surely Ojha can be picked ahead of him n why has same Dhoni bowled Jadeja for his full quota only 8 times out of 31 matches?

What?! Even our captain is ACTUALLY SAYING IN NO UNCLEAR TERMS that Jadeja is playing more as a specialist bowler and you're still contesting that statement? What more do you want? The president of India to come forward and say Jadeja is playing as a 5th bowler? But let me indulge you a little more and expose the absurdity of the argument; Of the SIX ODI matches that Ishant played in India b/w Aug 2009 and present, he failed to bowl his quota of overs FIVE times. Source; http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/236779.html?class=2;filter=advanced;host=6;orderby=start;spanmin1=29+Aug+2009;spanval1=span;template=results;type=allround;view=innings Of the TEN ODI matches that Praveen Kumar has played in India b/w Aug 2009 and present, he has bowled his full quote for overs JUST ONCE.. Source; http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/30732.html?class=2;filter=advanced;host=6;orderby=start;spanmin1=1+Aug+2009;spanval1=span;template=results;type=allround;view=innings So, by your yardstick, I am assuming you consider Ishant Sharma and Praveen Kumar to be part-timers as well, right? :hysterical:

I cant remember spinners bowling in PP even that WC.Bhajji bowled in the middle overs then n should do it now too,specially with 20 overs of PP

No You cannot remember the spinners bowling in PP overs during the WC for obvious reasons - THEREWAS NO POWERPLAYS BACK THEN. I made brought in the entire WC argument into this not to show that spinners can bowl economically in the PP, but earlier, you had made another false and inaccurate claim;

what u r suggesting is to give 10 overs regularly to part timers.plus the overs they r bound to fill in for wen someone get thrashed.Sorry thats too much to ask of them..

No, it is NOT too much to ask of them.. In fact they have done it for a looooooooooong looooooooooong time, including the entire duration of our highly successful WC '03 campaign. :P

not that 4 only.I remember Dhoni giving Bhajji overs in PP wen Eng toured India n he got smoked there too.plus he went wicketless in T20 WC despite bowling well co teams played him out

And why is that you dont want to talk about economy rates at all? This is the ODIs were talking about, not tests. Bhajji was still largely more economical than our pacers in the T20 WC and I believe Ashwin, Ojha and even Jadeja have the ability to bowl controlled spells with fielding restrictions.

yeah,but they r flat largely.we had a much better variety of part timers,left arm of Mongia,Yuvraj,off spin of Sehwag,leggies f SRT n medium pace of Ganguly.now all we have is Sehwag n Yuvraj.Sachin doesnt bowl now

So in your opinion, the main reason why we have to abandon the entire concept of bowling 10 overs with our part-timers is because, back in 2003, we had a part-time attack of Sehwag, Yuvraj and Mongia, while in 2010, our attack is largely comprised of the in-effectual Sehwag, Yuvraj and Raina? Seriously, doesnt that argument sound ridiculous, EVEN to you? :hysterical: I didnt know Dinesh Mongia was such an outstanding bowler.

n has many times has he failed?I dont think he encountered many such ocassions.I recall one such occasion in T20 n he won it for us with Yusuf n I never said he could always do it,but now his batting has got better,as for his attacking abilty,his T20 S/R is a good indicator

Huh? Thats like 'Anil Kumble should open the batting in ODIs.. After all, how many times has he failed doing that, never mind that he actually NEVER done that..'? Guess what, we do know how Irfan does when he bats at numbers 7/8. His mediocre batting strike of 75 at those positions is actually LESS THAN than of his overall career strike and just ONE of 6 ODI 50s came batting at those positions. So here's something we all can agree - Irfan is NOT A good no.7 batsmen. Or, do you want a batsmen with a strike rate of 75 to bat at no.7 for your team?

huh?I said Irfan is CLOSE TO n NOT FAR OFF from Uthappa or Sharma,care to tell what they've done so magnificent to be streets ahead in different league to Irfan

Lol, I dont know what to say someone who claims Irfan Pathan the batsmen is pretty similar in talent and striking abilities to Robin Uthappa and Rohit Sharma the batsmen. I've lots of wierd things on this board, but this one takes the cake.

again I said it can affect not that it will affect.stop twisting my statements.ofcourse it isnt expected to affect thier batting since they r class player,but it just may.

Exactly, I am sure it 'CAN' affect the batting.. Which is why our batting performed SOO badly during the WC '03, that we went all the way to the finals.. So, lets get this straight, you make an assumption that bowling 3/4 overs will impact the batting of guys like Yuvraj and Sehwag, based on what? Can you statistically prove that, even as the bowling workload of guys like Yuvraj and Sehwag went up or stayed steady, their batting performances went down? But here's what I CAN PROVE TO YOU, using real numbers, and not just shallow, off-the-top assumptions; B/w Jan 2005 and December 2008, Yuvraj Sing played 111 ODIs. In this period, he bowled nearly 300 over of 700 overs that has bowled in all ODIs so far. Essentially, That is 42% of all overs he has bowled in ODIs, in 44% of all matches he has played. Sounds normal right? He had bowling his overs, right through that period. Source;http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/36084.html?class=2;filter=advanced;orderby=default;spanmax1=01+Dec+2008;spanmin1=03+Jan+2005;spanval1=span;template=results;type=bowling But guess what happened to his batting during that time he was bowling his overs as a part-timer, as usual? IT SKYROCKETED! . His averaged 45 with the bat, as opposed to his overall ODI average of 36. Source; http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/36084.html?class=2;filter=advanced;orderby=default;spanmax1=10+Dec+2008;spanmin1=03+Jan+2005;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting Still think bowling the odd 3/4 overs affects the batting of our players? :P

why is his bowl avg. so bad then

His bowling average is pretty bad, but apparently it isnt as bad as the 55 average that all our fast bowlers collectively averaged in home ODIs, in the last one year. Get this straight - No one debating how good or bad a 5th bowler Jadeja is. All i am saying is, even though he came into the team as an all-rounder, these days, he plays more as a specialist bowler, which is hurting our batting because we dont have good enough batsmen at no.7

they may HAVE to,u r saying that everything would go according to ur plan n part timers will only have to bowl 10 overs always,what if Bhajji starts to get thrashed in PP,who do u bring in?part timers?or do u continue with a struggling Bhajji until PP finishes?I think u'll be forced to as u dont have any options.u dont want such situations,do you

That is thing - I DONT KNOW what will exactly happen if you play the combo of 2 pacers + 2 spinners + 2 part-timers. Niether do you, in fact, no one knows. But here's what we all KNOW. In the last one years, all our pacers put together have a combined average of 55 and an an economy rate touching 7. I dont find that acceptable, do you?

[Lord]

What?! Even our captain is ACTUALLY SAYING IN NO UNCLEAR TERMS that Jadeja is playing more as a specialist bowler and you're still contesting that statement? What more do you want? The president of India to come forward and say Jadeja is playing as a 5th bowler? But let me indulge you a little more and expose the absurdity of the argument; Of the SIX ODI matches that Ishant played in India b/w Aug 2009 and present, he failed to bowl his quota of overs FIVE times. Source; http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/236779.html?class=2;filter=advanced;host=6;orderby=start;spanmin1=29+Aug+2009;spanval1=span;template=results;type=allround;view=innings Of the TEN ODI matches that Praveen Kumar has played in India b/w Aug 2009 and present, he has bowled his full quote for overs JUST ONCE.. Source; http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/30732.html?class=2;filter=advanced;host=6;orderby=start;spanmin1=1+Aug+2009;spanval1=span;template=results;type=allround;view=innings So, by your yardstick, I am assuming you consider Ishant Sharma and Praveen Kumar to be part-timers as well, right? :hysterical:

LOL comparing spinners to pacers.6 n 10 games is a huge sample,considering all of the mtches r in India,ofcourse pacers r expected to complete thier overs in flat Indian decks,how dare they not:haha::haha: n Ishant was dropped for the same reason that he couldnt complete his overs that isnt the only criterion.bowling average is too.Jadeja's numbers r strikinly similar to both Yuvraj n Sehwag n last time I checked they were part timers,so they can well do what Jadeja is doing if hes picked as the second spinner,is the best second spinner in the country.isnt Ojha a better choice?or Ashwin?or Mishra?

No You cannot remember the spinners bowling in PP overs during the WC for obvious reasons - THEREWAS NO POWERPLAYS BACK THEN. I made brought in the entire WC argument into this not to show that spinners can bowl economically in the PP, but earlier, you had made another false and inaccurate claim;

they were called field restrictions.boy what a huuuuuuuuge difference it makes:cantstop: n PP(or field resrtrictions) being for 20 overs instead of 15 makes a vital difference,u cant go in the match with a set strategy hoping everything would go well n batting PP would be taken after 40 overs,n part time spinners would only have to bowl in overs 15-35,got to have some backup plan

No, it is NOT too much to ask of them.. In fact they have done it for a looooooooooong looooooooooong time, including the entire duration of our highly successful WC '03 campaign. :P

WC'03 argument is lame,thier wickets in SA helped the pacers,allowing them to take wickets in intial overs,n less pressure on part timers,some games they didnt even need to bowl 10 overs between them,expect no such thing on pattas of India

And why is that you dont want to talk about economy rates at all? This is the ODIs were talking about, not tests. Bhajji was still largely more economical than our pacers in the T20 WC and I believe Ashwin, Ojha and even Jadeja have the ability to bowl controlled spells with fielding restrictions.

Bhajji is our strike bowler n needs to take wickets,is expected to take wickets in helpful conditions of WI.just being economical isnt good enough for him.

So in your opinion, the main reason why we have to abandon the entire concept of bowling 10 overs with our part-timers is because, back in 2003, we had a part-time attack of Sehwag, Yuvraj and Mongia, while in 2010, our attack is largely comprised of the in-effectual Sehwag, Yuvraj and Raina? Seriously, doesnt that argument sound ridiculous, EVEN to you? :hysterical: I didnt know Dinesh Mongia was such an outstanding bowler.

Ganguly bowled 20 overs in that WC,Sachin used to bowl till recently,dunno why u missed them n Raina isnt an international bowler,not a part timer too n do u really believe our WC campaign would've been different if we played Kumble instead of Mongia?how many games did he win for us with the bat?if anything we might have won the final if experience of Kumble was there

Huh? Thats like 'Anil Kumble should open the batting in ODIs.. After all, how many times has he failed doing that, never mind that he actually NEVER done that..'?

huh,u asked me to show his stats,when I said there isnt many situations hes been in,u r blaming me?:giggle: and about suggesting to do things,which we have never done,arent u suggesting the same with spinners should bowl in PP' argument.only difference is,few times we have tried it,we have failed miserably

Guess what, we do know how Irfan does when he bats at numbers 7/8. His mediocre batting strike of 75 at those positions is actually LESS THAN than of his overall career strike and just ONE of 6 ODI 50s came batting at those positions. So here's something we all can agree - Irfan is NOT A good no.7 batsmen. Or, do you want a batsmen with a strike rate of 75 to bat at no.7 for your team?

lol stats dont tell u everything always.Irfan has improved his batting over the years.hes been dropped for a year now,so they dont tell the recent picture Jadeja has a S/R of 85.yeah baby,hes the man,hes won soo many games for us at no.7:haha:

Lol, I dont know what to say someone who claims Irfan Pathan the batsmen is pretty similar in talent and striking abilities to Robin Uthappa and Rohit Sharma the batsmen. I've lots of wierd things on this board, but this one takes the cake.

why dont u tell me what these batsmen have done so magnificent?Rohit averages 29(propped up significantly by Zim series) with a S/R of 77.Robin averages 27 with S/R of 90.thats slightly better,but u really think hes got the technique n temperament to consolidate if need be they r better,but not THAT better

Exactly, I am sure it 'CAN' affect the batting.. Which is why our batting performed SOO badly during the WC '03, that we went all the way to the finals.. So, lets get this straight, you make an assumption that bowling 3/4 overs will impact the batting of guys like Yuvraj and Sehwag, based on what? Can you statistically prove that, even as the bowling workload of guys like Yuvraj and Sehwag went up or stayed steady, their batting performances went down? But here's what I CAN PROVE TO YOU, using real numbers, and not just shallow, off-the-top assumptions; B/w Jan 2005 and December 2008, Yuvraj Sing played 111 ODIs. In this period, he bowled nearly 300 over of 700 overs that has bowled in all ODIs so far. Essentially, That is 42% of all overs he has bowled in ODIs, in 44% of all matches he has played. Sounds normal right? He had bowling his overs, right through that period. Source;http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/36084.html?class=2;filter=advanced;orderby=default;spanmax1=01+Dec+2008;spanmin1=03+Jan+2005;spanval1=span;template=results;type=bowling But guess what happened to his batting during that time he was bowling his overs as a part-timer, as usual? IT SKYROCKETED! . His averaged 45 with the bat, as opposed to his overall ODI average of 36. Source; http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/36084.html?class=2;filter=advanced;orderby=default;spanmax1=10+Dec+2008;spanmin1=03+Jan+2005;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting Still think bowling the odd 3/4 overs affects the batting of our players? :P

even I can produce such real numbers.between 2003 n 2006,Sehwag bowled 333 of 683 overs hes bowled in 111 of 226 matches hes played.thats almost 50% of overs in 50 % of matches http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/35263.html?class=2;spanmax1=31+Dec+2006;spanmin1=01+Jan+2003;spanval1=span;template=results;type=bowling this is how his batting went,his average went down to 29,good 5 runs behind his career avg. http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/35263.html?class=2;spanmax1=31+Dec+2006;spanmin1=01+Jan+2003;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting so are u convinced that bowling 3-4 overs CAN affect the batting?thats all I said:P

His bowling average is pretty bad, but apparently it isnt as bad as the 55 average that all our fast bowlers collectively averaged in home ODIs, in the last one year. Get this straight - No one debating how good or bad a 5th bowler Jadeja is. All i am saying is, even though he came into the team as an all-rounder, these days, he plays more as a specialist bowler, which is hurting our batting because we dont have good enough batsmen at no.7

if he plays a specialist bowler,why hes batting at 7,n why hes persisted even wen there r better options there,he doesnt deserve to be there as a bowler(read second spinner) alone n is certainly not doing the required job with the bat

That is thing - I DONT KNOW what will exactly happen if you play the combo of 2 pacers + 2 spinners + 2 part-timers. Niether do you, in fact, no one knows. But here's what we all KNOW. In the last one years, all our pacers put together have a combined average of 55 and an an economy rate touching 7. I dont find that acceptable, do you?

we do know,it was tried in T20 WC,it failed spectacularly. n those figures arent correct because u r including guys like Dinda,Tyagi who r only gonna watch the WC on thier TVs

[Ram]

that isnt the only criterion.bowling average is too.Jadeja's numbers r strikinly similar to both Yuvraj n Sehwag n last time I checked they were part timers,so they can well do what Jadeja is doing

Are you even serious? So your yarsdstick of judging If someone is playing as regular bowler or not is a) If they manage to bowl their quota of overs or not and b) their bowling averages. And from the time that Jadeja made his ODI debut, Jadeja will trump guys like Ishant, Praveen Kumar, Sreesanth etc, in all those numbers. So what, they’re part-timers as well? Do you even comprehend the lunacy of the argument? Besides, the CAPTAIN of our team is ON RECORD saying that even though Jadeja came into team as a spinning all-rounder, these days, he plays more as a specialist bowler. And he repeated the same thing AGAIN, in the pre-match toss interview before the last game against Lanka. What more do you want? Jesus to come again and say Jadeja is playing as a specialist spinner? :dontknow:

WC'03 argument is lame,thier wickets in SA helped the pacers,allowing them to take wickets in intial overs,n less pressure on part timers,some games they didnt even need to bowl 10 overs between them,expect no such thing on pattas of India

That is again, NOT TRUE. There have been MANY instances of us using the 4-bowler strategy, right here in the subcontinent and it has worked. So, to claim that we could get away with 4 specialist bowlers in south Africa only because the pitches there assisted seam bowling is false. We have done it, right here, in India, MANY MANY times.

Bhajji is our strike bowler n needs to take wickets,is expected to take wickets in helpful conditions of WI.just being economical isnt good enough for him.

I am not going to debate the effectiveness of Bhajji as a ODI bowler, that’s an entire separate discussion. All I know is, in my opinion, he, along with guys like Ashwin , Ojha and even Jadeja, are capable of bowling spells under fielding restrictions.

Ganguly bowled 20 overs in that WC,Sachin used to bowl till recently,dunno why u missed them n Raina isnt an international bowler,not a part timer too

Raina is not a good enough part-timer? Do you know that, of all Indian bowlers who bowled during our last three ODI series against Lanka, Australia and South Africa, He has THE BEST bowling average and an economy rate better than ALL of our seamers? And I can see how you’ve conveniently missed that Yuvraj’s part-time bowling has really taken off in the recent times. Its hard to argume with someone who picks and chooses the examples that seem to fit with this theory, while completely ignoring the rest that don’t fit with it. And you keep moving your goal posts as well – First you said we cannot go in with just 4 specialist bowlers because one of them will get hit and we wont be able to compensate. When I proved that wrong by showing you the WC example, you changed tack saying ‘it all depends on the conditions..’, which is not true as well because we have tried that strategy with success right here in the subcontinent. Now, you’re saying I ‘No no no..It depends on the bowlers..’ . I absolutely believe b/w the three of them, Sehwag, Yuvraj and Raina are more than capable of bowling 10 overs of part-time spin.

n do u really believe our WC campaign would've been different if we played Kumble instead of Mongia?how many games did he win for us with the bat?if anything we might have won the final if experience of Kumble was there

Seriously, you want to question the strategy of our team in what turned out to be one of THE most successful and impressive world cup campaigns in the history of World cups, based on the results of ONE match? How about the 10 previous matches, where the strategy actually WORKED?

huh,u asked me to show his stats,when I said there isnt many situations hes been in,u r blaming me?:giggle: lol stats dont tell u everything always.Irfan has improved his batting over the years.hes been dropped for a year now,so they dont tell the recent picture

You don’t understand, the onus is on you to prove that Irfan can be a effective no.7 bat, not on me to disprove it. You’re the one making a case for his place in that all-important no.7 spot. I don’t need the support of numbers to know that no.7 is probably one spot too high for Irfan, I already know that. Why? I’ve seen him play ODIs and his 100 match long ODI career, not once has come in at no.7/8, and won us a game in the last 7,8 overs, with the asking rate over 10. I posted those numbers just to show you that Irfan is not suitable for that position. Now, once again, I challenge you, show me 3 ODI innings in the 100 match ODI career, when he has come down late in the order and won a match for us. After all, that is the job description of the no.7 batsmen, is it not?

and about suggesting to do things,which we have never done,arent u suggesting the same with spinners should bowl in PP' argument.only difference is,few times we have tried it,we have failed miserably

We have gone in with the 3 pace bowler strategy in all the 13 matches of our last three home ODI series against three very good sides (Lanka, Australia, South Africa) and this is what we know; a) It has failed miserably. The opposition teams average 296 runs against us, per innings. And even in that disaster, the seamers have failed even more miserably, giving away nearl SEVEN runs/over, to the seamer FIVE. b) The strategy of going in with spinners in the PPs has not really been tried out enough in ODIs in India to know if it works or not.

why dont u tell me what these batsmen have done so magnificent?Rohit averages 29(propped up significantly by Zim series) with a S/R of 77.Robin averages 27 with S/R of 90.thats slightly better,but u really think hes got the technique n temperament to consolidate if need be they r better,but not THAT better

Ok, here’s a situation for you. We’re 200/5, in 42 overs. There’s already a specialist batsmen at the crease (lets say Raina). We need 70 runs off the last 8 overs. Who would you prefer to come into bat at this point? a)Irfan b) Uthappa/Rohit/Karthik

even I can produce such real numbers.between 2003 n 2006,Sehwag bowled 333 of 683 overs hes bowled in 111 of 226 matches hes played.thats almost 50% of overs in 50 % of matches http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/35263.html?class=2;spanmax1=31+Dec+2006;spanmin1=01+Jan+2003;spanval1=span;template=results;type=bowling this is how his batting went,his average went down to 29,good 5 runs behind his career avg. http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/35263.html?class=2;spanmax1=31+Dec+2006;spanmin1=01+Jan+2003;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting

Exactly, that is my whole point. Your entire assumption that bowling 3/4 overs ‘can’ impact the batting of top-order batsmen is entirely arbitrary and has no basis in fact or evidence, because each of us can prove either way using our own selection of numbers. Only difference is, unlike you, I am not going to use Yuvraj’s numbers and say ‘Look, when Yuvraj bowls 3,4 overs, his batting improves.. So lets make all our top-order batsmen bowl.. that way, their batting will improve as well..’’

so are u convinced that bowling 3-4 overs CAN affect the batting?thats all I said:P

No I am not convinced :P, because there is no conclusive evidence to prove either way and quite frankly, even from the outside, that seems a ridiculous statement to make. I’ve not heard ONE batsmen/captain, ever say that having their top-order batsmen bowl a few overs has affected their batting. So I think it is just a fictitious reason you cooked up to gin up support for the anti 4 bowler approach.

if he plays a specialist bowler,why hes batting at 7,n why hes persisted even wen there r better options there,he doesnt deserve to be there as a bowler(read second spinner) alone n is certainly not doing the required job with the bat

Dude, seriously, have you even been seeing the matches and listening to people talk? If you have, you wouldn’t have asked this question. :P Jadeja came into the team as an ‘all-rounder’.. He was initially thought of as a useful lower order bat, good fielder and a reasonable bowler.. But over time, people have realized that while he’s actually a very good ODI back-up spin bowler, his batting is nowhere NEAR no.7 pedigree. But they’re still hoping that someday, he magically starts delivering with the ball. So jadeja gets preferences over guys Ojha, primarily for his fielding and also his assumed batting abilities.

n those figures arent correct because u r including guys like Dinda,Tyagi who r only gonna watch the WC on thier TVs

Wrong, those numbers actually don’t include either Tyagi or Dinda. They do however, include Zaheer Khan, Ishant Sharma, Praveen Kumar, Ashish Nehra, Sreesanth. :P

[The Outsider]

If Jadeja is playing as a specialist spinner, then it's the dumbest decision ever taken. As a specialist spinner Ojha, Mishra, Chawla, Powar etc. are all miles better than him. He is playing as an all rounder and even though his batting sucks, the team is investing in him in the hope that it will improve and be up to the mark soon.

[Ram]

If Jadeja is playing as a specialist spinner, then it's the dumbest decision ever taken. As a specialist spinner Ojha, Mishra, Chawla, Powar etc. are all miles better than him. He is playing as an all rounder and even though his batting sucks, the team is investing in him in the hope that it will improve and be up to the mark soon.

Well, he’s actually a better spinner than most people give him credit for. In fact, he has the 2nd best economy rate among all Indian bowler after Bhajji (once again, these are numbers from the last three ODI series we played at home) He came into the team as a useful lower-order batsmen who can bowl. But he’s obviously now become a reasonable back-up spinner who can hang around with the bat if need be and is also a good fielder.

[The Outsider]

Well, he’s actually a better spinner than most people give him credit for. In fact, he has the 2nd best economy rate among all Indian bowler after Bhajji (once again, these are numbers from the last three ODI series we played at home) He came into the team as a useful lower-order batsmen who can bowl. But he’s obviously now become a reasonable back-up spinner who can hang around with the bat if need be and is also a good fielder.

The question is simple - is Jadeja the second best spinner in the country? If yes, then our team management and selectors are the biggest morons to have walked the planet for there are half a dozen better spinners than him in India. If no, then he is not playing as a specialist spinner. It's as simple as that, really.

[Ram]

The question is simple - is Jadeja the second best spinner in the country? If yes' date=' then our team management and selectors are the biggest morons to have walked the planet for there are half a dozen better spinners than him in India. If no, then he is not playing as a specialist spinner. It's as simple as that, really.[/quote'] Half a dozen better spinners than Jadeja in ODIs? I’d love to hear the names. I do feel he’s an extremely under-rated ODI spinner and his numbers speak for themselves. Even though the captain himself has EXPLICITLY stated on more than one occasion that Jadeja is now playing more a specialist spinner, its quite obvious that he’s in the team over guys like Ojha/Mishra primarily for his fielding and the hope that someday, his much anticipated batting finally does come around.