Indian All Time XI - By cricinfo experts

[riwi999]

Guys, FWIW, I'd like to say Kirmani was no mug with the bat. India's batting used to be pretty fragile in those days. I remember Kiri coming in with the team in dire straits, and playing many defiant innings. Mind you, those were days before batsmen had all the protective gear they have today. Kiri would always be our last hope - and often he did not disappoint. I would still pick Dhoni above him for this all-time XI but am just saying. In case people think Kiri was a tailender. He averaged 27. Which in those days was pretty respectable.

[yoda]

I don't like Mankad, Hazare or Prasanna there. VVS/Mohinder/Bedi would be my choices. Rest I Likey.

[The Outsider]

Why do you need a wicketkeeper-batsman at number 8. You have a team with some of the best batsmen produced in the history of the game and have Kapil Dev batting at number 7. Why in the world would you not choose the best wicketkeeper available just for getting an extra 5-10 runs per innings? Kirmani, More, and Mongia were all better wicketkeepers than Dhoni - that much is a fact. Specially against spin and the XI picked has 3 world class spinners. And for those deriding Mongia's batting, yes he was not the best batsman going around but has played two of the best innings played by an Indian wicketkeeper - the 150 against Australia on a terrible Kotla pitch and the 50 odd he made with Tendulkar in the last innings Chennai chase against Akram, Waqar, and Saqlain. Dhoni, for all his average has yet to play an innings in the same ballpark as those.

And yes, how DARE the Cricinfo panelists consider someone like Dhoni, who has been in the Indian side only for the last 5 years, a period during which the Indian team has been SOO mediocre we actually became world’s no.1 test team, as opposed to say Nayan Mongia or Kiran More, who together oversaw the golden era that was the 90s right?

What kind of a dumb argument is that? Let's also dump Mankad and play Jadeja. While we are at it let's also get rid of Gavaskar and play Gambhir and Wasim Jaffer.

[coffee_rules]

No problems with the list. Prasanna is probably chosen over others because of away record and he didn't need a sporting pitch to get his wkts. Same with Hazare wins over Mohinder and GRV who were more closer than others.

[Sooda]

Surprised a bit here too at Hazares inclusion, but cant argue too much about a guy who scored two tons in a match vs Lindwall/Miller. Think its a very close call between him VVS and Amarnath. Mankad is a surefire pick-unanimous; unsusprisingly. Bit surprising that Dravid wasnt unanimous.

[Ram]

Why do you need a wicketkeeper-batsman at number 8. You have a team with some of the best batsmen produced in the history of the game and have Kapil Dev batting at number 7. Why in the world would you not choose the best wicketkeeper available just for getting an extra 5-10 runs per innings?

So your argument against having MSD in the team is that we already have too many good batsmen in the team? Lol, what an insane argument!

Kirmani, More, and Mongia were all better wicketkeepers than Dhoni - that much is a fact. Specially against spin and the XI picked has 3 world class spinners.

And Dhoni is Akmal-esque against spinners? MSD’s keeping skills, especially against spin, are VERY VERY under-rated. He rarely ever drops a catch or misses a stumping. The onus is one the MSD doubters to prove that he is bad against spinner compared to say someone like Mongia. And the only way that is going to happen is they compile a list of catches/stumpings they he has missed. Lets see that happening. MSD does not become ‘bad against spinners’ because you just say so. And it’s a absolute no-contest b/w Dhoni and Mongia versus the pacers. Mongia was reliable when it came to clutching on to catches that went directly to him, but in terms of athletic ability, a quality so important to keepers, he SUCKED!

And for those deriding Mongia's batting' date=' yes he was not the best batsman going around but has played two of the best innings played by an Indian wicketkeeper - the 150 against Australia on a terrible Kotla pitch and the 50 odd he made with Tendulkar in the last innings Chennai chase against Akram, Waqar, and Saqlain. Dhoni, for all his average has yet to play an innings in the same ballpark as those. [/quote'] Mongia played for India for nearly a decade and all you can come up with is TWO worthwhile innings? If you play for as long as Mongia did, of course you’re going to make the odd contribution. That isn’t an indicator of your quality, that’s just a sheer product of the law of averages. Even Ajay Ratra and Deep Dasgupta scored 100s playing only a fraction of matches that Mongia played. That doesn’t say ANYTHING about their batting WHATSOEVER, does it? And when the did the Kotla pitch become ‘TERRIBLE’? I saw that match live and there was absolutely nothing ‘terribly’ about that pitch. Australia lost because their their batting generally sucked in that match and they were up against Kumble in his prime. And they were missing Shane Warne in that match as well. Of course, if we look past the usual smoke-screen of the averages game, everyone will gladly accept that Mongia is no match to MSD when it comes to batting. Here are just SOME of the too quality innings that MSD played, that have had a significant impact on our chances in those series;

• Top scored against England in Mumbai in 2006, when the rest of the batting failed.
• Scored some vital quick runs in the drawn test against West Indies in Antigua in 2006 in a push for our victory.
• Saved our asses against Pakistan in 2006 in Faislabad
• Was Instrumental in saving the first test at Lords in 2007, a draw that would enable us to win our first test series in England in more than 20 years.
• Bailed our team out in Delhi in 2007 against Pakistan in a partnership with VVS.
• Crucial partnership with VVS in the 2nd innings against Australia in Perth, a match that we ultimately won by a narrow margin.
• Crucial innings against Australia in both the innings of the Mohali test in 2008.
• Important contribution again, against Australia in Nagpu 2008.
• Top scored in the first innings against England in that now famous test of 2008 in Chennai. But for his innings, we would have been 175 all out.

And I can keep going forever.. And these are just the innings he played where his contribution had a DIRECT IMPACT on the result of the game, not all of his good innings’. Here’s a FACT - Anyone even attempting to compare Mongia’s batting ‘prowess’ against MSD’s will only end up with a load of FAIL. Mongia was a pathetic batsmen whose only purpose in the line-up was to serve as an indicator as to when the tail began.

What kind of a dumb argument is that? Let's also dump Mankad and play Jadeja. While we are at it let's also get rid of Gavaskar and play Gambhir and Wasim Jaffer.

You forgot the part where I say ‘Individually and collectively’. If there’s one player who typifies the mediocrity and meekness of the Indian approach during the 90s, it is Nayan Mongia. He was a decent keeper and a mediocre batsmen. Even bringing his name up in a discussion of all-time Indian test XI is an insult to all those Indian greats (And once again, the same could probably be said of More).

[The Outsider]

So your argument against having MSD in the team is that we already have too many good batsmen in the team? Lol, what an insane argument!

No, the argument is that when you already have a very strong batting line up, your selection of the wicketkeeper should be strictly on keeping abilities. And anyone arguing that Dhoni is a better keeper than Kirmani, More, or Mongia has lost his marbles. Plain and simple. Yeah, Kotla was a batting paradise which is why the next highest score in the match was 67 from either sides. Regarding Dhoni's batting, it is extremely overrated. He is a limited batsman who thrives on flat pitches and with a cushion of a very strong top order. He averages in the 20s in half the test playing nations. Is he a better batsman than Mongia? Quite obviously. But he is no Gilchrist to merit selection in even the current test squad on his batting alone, let alone an all time XI.

[Ram]

No' date=' the argument is that when you already have a very strong batting line up, your selection of the wicketkeeper should be strictly on keeping abilities. And anyone arguing that Dhoni is a better keeper than Kirmani, More, or Mongia has lost his marbles. Plain and simple. [/quote'] What, that doesn’t even make sense! Whether you select a player or not should be based ONLY on his credentials, not how good or bad the rest of the team is. I mean WTF, that is logic 101! And yes, lets include a player in the team ONLY because of his apparent proficiency in keeping against spinners, even though he had the athletic ability of a Godrej refrigerator and the batting ability and temperament only marginally better than tailenders who came below him. :hysterical:

Yeah, Kotla was a batting paradise which is why the next highest score in the match was 67 from either sides.

Talk about the inmate running the asylum.. Only yesterday you were accusing Vortex of revising history and here you are, less than 24 hours laters, at it yourself. :winky: No one said Kotla was a batting paradise, but it was nowhere even close to being ‘terrible’ as you claimed. It was a typical 90s Indian pitch that assisted spinners right through and Australia suffered because they missed Warne and they were up against Kumble in his prime. You just made up the whole theory of the pitch being bad for batting because you want to drum up Mongia’s non-existent batting credentials and are now clutching at straws to prove your case by making all sorts of absurd arguments like ‘Oh look, the 2nd top score is 67..’. At least, you now seem to have realized the sheer lunacy of comparing Mongia’s kindergartenesque batting abilities versus someone like Dhoni, who has made vital contributions with the bat that have helped us win some of the most historic test victories in the history of Indian cricket. Good. :hysterical: Anyways, I am not going to waste any more of my energy trying to argue with someone that one of the shining lights of India’s plight in the 90s, Mr.Nayan ‘I-am-the-definition-of –Mediocre’ Mongia, should be nowhere close to a spot in the Indian all-time XI. The mere fact that you think he is contention proves two things -- Your bloated opinion of that mediocre cricketer’s non-existent abilities. -- But more worryingly, it shows your shockingly low bar for players getting into the Indian all-time XI. If Nayan Mongia is in contention for a spot in the all-time Indian XI, then that speaks TERRIBLY of the combined Indian cricket legacy. What next? Iqbal Siddique and Sairaj Bahutule are also in contention? :wall:

[The Outsider]

What, that doesn’t even make sense! Whether you select a player or not should be based ONLY on his credentials, not how good or bad the rest of the team is. I mean WTF, that is logic 101!

LOL! So, if India has 11 world class batsmen and all bowlers available for selection are mediocre, we should field a team with 11 batsmen because team selection should only be on 'credentials' and not things like team balance, equipped for all conditions etc. What a clown! Can't even begin to address anything else when this is the level of lunacy I am dealing with. And just to clarify Kirmani would be my pick for the Indian all time XI, not Mongia. But given the strong batting line up the side already boasts of, there is little merit in selecting an inferior keeper at number 8 based on his superior batting and amongst the long term keepers I have seen, Kirmani, More, and Mongia are all better than Dhoni, something you have admitted yourself. But you want to pick your number 8 for batting abilities despite him being inferior in his primary skills. Reminds me of Duncan Fletcher and Ashley Giles. :winky:

[zen]

I would have liked to see Amar Singh and Md Nissar in the line up. If you ignore them because of the number of games (less than 10 tests) that they have played then it is difficult to find seamers of the AT11 quality, apart from Kapil and Sri. In that case, can't argue with 3 spinners (Mankad also as one of two all-rounders) and may be could have had Gupte ahead of Kumble.

[Ram]

Lol, you’re losing it brother, and quite fast. I cant help it if you selectively read my posts and then make your own fictitious arguments. First, you missed the part where I said someone like Mongia sucked at an individual level, but also the team that he was part of also lost most of the times and went on the weird rant about including Jaffer over Gavaskar. :hysterical: Then, there was the made up claim of Kotla 96 being a ‘terrible’ pitch to bat on, even though the truth was nowhere near it. Now, here’s another obtuse reference to team-balance, like as though I never factored that into account. Team balance is PRECISELY the reason why I want to include someone like MSD over a mediocre player like Mongia. MSD’s batting is significantly better than Mongia’s and does what you exactly expect of a lower order batsmen – deliver in pressure situations, something that Mongia NEVER did. Mongia is absolutely flat-footed against the seamers and its funny you never bring that up, as though keeping abilities against the pacers dont matter at all. And I believe MSD’s keeping abilities against the spinners are extremely under-rated and I will back his abilities in a shoot-out with anyone else because he rarely ever misses a catch or a stumping against the spinners. Just because you have a preconceived notion that Mongia is the best keeper against spinners to have set foot on God's green earth, it doesnt make it true. If you disagree with my assesment of Dhoni's skills against spinners, let me see give a list of catches/stumpings that MSD missed against spinners and we’ll talk.

And just to clarify Kirmani would be my pick for the Indian all time XI, not Mongia. But given the strong batting line up the side already boasts of, there is little merit in selecting an inferior keeper at number 8 based on his superior batting and amongst the long term keepers I have seen, Kirmani, More, and Mongia are all better than Dhoni, something you have admitted yourself. :

No one even brought Kirmani into the argument. It is you who shot yourself in the foot by having Mongia ahead of MSD in the pecking order. :hysterical:

[Ram]

Its hilarious to see someone champion the cause of team-balance on one hand, while advocating for someone like Nayan ‘I-can-barely-hold-a-bat’ Mongia over Dhoni for that vital position of wicket-keeper bat on the other, even though the contributions of our lower-middle order and lower order batsmen have led some of our most historic wins in recent times. Talk about wildly contradictory positions! :hysterical:

[The Outsider]

I cant help it if you selectively read my posts and then make your own fictitious arguments. First, you missed the part where I said someone like Mongia sucked at an individual level, but also the team that he was part of also lost most of the times and went on the weird rant about including Jaffer over Gavaskar. :hysterical: Then, there was the made up claim of Kotla 96 being a ‘terrible’ pitch to bat on, even though the truth was nowhere near it.

I am not doing selective reading, just ignoring your asinine points to prevent the discussion from being diverted. But let me please you. The reference to how the team performs is completely irrelevant and your bringing it up in the first place shows how bankrupt the discussion is from your side. Kotla was a terrible pitch to bat on. I just don't want to dwell on it needlessly because nothing that I say will convince you otherwise. But here is what Wisden wrote about the pitch, I suppose they are also making up stories to glorify Mongia's innings :

Conspiracy theories were inevitable once the bone-dry, fractured and shifting pitch was revealed at this neglected and unprepossessing ground. Would such a substandard pitch have been presented had Shane Warne recovered from delicate finger surgery in time to play? Taylor chose to bat on what could have been mistaken for a third-day strip, but suspicions about the pitch seemed to dominate Australian thinking, and his team's inability to concentrate irritated Taylor beyond measure. He had built his pre-match strategy around the need for occupation of the crease. Ganguly and Steve Waugh were the only other batsmen to manage half-centuries, which was testimony to the magnitude of Mongia's performance.

Enough egg on the face? Or Wisden is guilty of revisionism in '96 itself? :winky:

Now, here’s another obtuse reference to team-balance, like as though I never factored that into account. Team balance is PRECISELY the reason why I want to include someone like MSD over a mediocre player like Mongia. MSD’s batting is significantly better than Mongia’s and does what you exactly expect of a lower order batsmen – deliver in pressure situations, something that Mongia NEVER did. Mongia is absolutely flat-footed against the seamers and its funny you never bring that up, as though keeping abilities against the pacers dont matter at all.

Yeah, select the number 8 player on the basis of his secondary skill even though he is inferior in the primary skill, something you admitted. Makes perfect sense.

And I believe MSD’s keeping abilities against the spinners are extremely under-rated and I will back his abilities in a shoot-out with anyone else because he rarely ever misses a catch or a stumping against the spinners. Just because you have a preconceived notion that Mongia is the best keeper against spinners to have set foot on God's green earth, it doesnt make it true. If you disagree with my assesment of Dhoni's skills against spinners, let me see give a list of catches/stumpings that MSD missed against spinners and we’ll talk.

Huh? Just in the first test at Galle he dropped Sangakkara in the first innings and possibly cost us the match.

No one even brought Kirmani into the argument. It is you who shot yourself in the foot by having Mongia ahead of MSD in the pecking order. :hysterical:

Yeah and I stick by the choice because I don't select a number 8 batsman on the basis of his superior secondary skill. I would select Mongia because in your own words Dhoni's skills compared to Mongia in their primary suit are "perceptibly inferior".

[Ram]

I am not doing selective reading, just ignoring your asinine points to prevent the discussion from being diverted. But let me please you. The reference to how the team performs is completely irrelevant and your bringing it up in the first place shows how bankrupt the discussion is from your side.

Bankrupt? Mediocre players lead to mediocre results. And back in the 90s, we had some *****y players in the team like Mongia, who spoilt the party of the rest of the good ones. That is just no-brainer logic.

Kotla was a terrible pitch to bat on. I just don't want to dwell on it needlessly because nothing that I say will convince you otherwise. But here is what Wisden wrote about the pitch, I suppose they are also making up stories to glorify Mongia's innings : Enough egg on the face? Or Wisden is guilty of revisionism in '96 itself? :winky:

So a Wisden article is the be-all-and-end-all of everything? :hysterical: I don’t need to read Wisden articles to know how good/bad the pitch was, because I SAW that match live. The mere fact that the Indian 1st innings lasted a leisurely 130 overs and Australia’s 2nd innings nearly 110 overs, should alone tell you the pitch had no real demons in it. Sure, no one said it was a batting beauty, to make it sound as though it was some some sort of minefiled where batsmen were barely able to survive is a gross misrepresentation of the reality. The match was over in three and a half days because of some extremely poor Aussie shot selection (Remember Azhar’s stunning one-handed catch he took in the slips, from the edge of wild Michael Slater swing off the bowling off David Johnson?) And If ‘Mr-I’ll score-runs-on-terrible-pitches’ was so good that he could not only survive, but outscore all other batsmen on that ‘terrible’ pitch, what happened to his batting abilities otherwise? I can understand you making a case for Mongia based on your assessment of his superior keeping skills (though I quite don’t agree with it). That is an argument I am willing to buy. But to somehow portray one innings as evidence of his batting skills, when everyone knows that he was an EXTREMELY MEDIOCRE batsmen, is laughable. One innings doesn’t tell you anything. Even Ajit Agarkjar scored a 100 in Lords even as other Indian batsmen failed, that doesn’t tell you much about his batting abilities.

Yeah' date=' select the number 8 player on the basis of his secondary skill even though he is inferior in the primary skill, something you admitted. Makes perfect sense. [/quote'] No, the assessment of Dhoni’s primary skill (keeping) being inferior to Mongia’s is your own, I don’t agree with it. If you havent realized already, I was conceding a rhetorical point for debating purposes, every time I used the words like ‘perceptibly superior’, ‘apparently better keeping skills’. Dhoni is significantly better against pacers when compared to Mongia and why that doesn’t count against Mongia in your opinion blows my mind. With regards to MSD’s skills against spinners, they are under-rated. The mere fact that there’s not a single test match in MSD’s entire career that one can point out to and say we lost it or squandered a winning chance, because of mistakes in his keeping, itself tells a tale. But I do love how you you’re advocating for team-balance on one hand, while campaigning for someone like Mongia over Dhoni for the all-important lower middle order position, even though that position has been vital to some of our most significant wins.

[The Outsider]

So a Wisden article is the be-all-and-end-all of everything? :hysterical: I don’t need to read Wisden articles to know how good/bad the pitch was, because I SAW that match live.

See that's why I was ignoring your asinine points, before you decided to revisit them to embarrass yourself. You saw the match, I also saw the match. You said it was a perfectly fine pitch, I said it was a terrible pitch for batting. The argument would have gone nowhere, but to support my point I put forth an opinion from a neutral and well respected book. Even that's not good enough for you because Wisden might or might not be the be all and end all of everything, but you sure seem to be in the delusion that you are.

No, the assessment of Dhoni’s primary skill (keeping) being inferior to Mongia’s is your own, I don’t agree with it. If you havent realized already, I was conceding a rhetorical point for debating purposes, every time I used the words like ‘perceptibly superior’, ‘apparently better keeping skills’.

What a clown. Can't even stick to your own words. Not for the first time though because quite recently you also wrote something about how Jadeja should not be dropped only to say a few hours later that it was meant to be an assessment of his role in the side. Now 'His keeping is perceptibly inferior to Mongia’s' means you are conceding a rhetorical point? Find me one poster on this board who would agree with you, but since online wins seem to mean so much to you that you blatantly lie and distort what you write yourself, I'll save you the trouble of doing all that. You win.

[Ram]

See that's why I was ignoring your asinine points' date=' before you decided to revisit them to embarrass yourself. You saw the match, I also saw the match. You said it was a perfectly fine pitch, I said it was a terrible pitch for batting. [/quote'] I said ‘it was a perfectly fine pitch’? Good , so you’re simply making stuff up from thin air. Way to go! The fact of the matter is, irrespective of what Wisden ‘reported’, there’s nothing in either the scorecard or the circumstances of the Delhi test, to suggest that it was bad pitch for batsmen. If anything, half of our test wins in the 90s will fit that exact same profile.

Now 'His keeping is perceptibly inferior to Mongia’s' means you are conceding a rhetorical point? Find me one poster on this board who would agree with you' date=' but since online wins seem to mean so much to you that you blatantly lie and distort what you write yourself, I'll save you the trouble of doing all that. You win.[/quote'] Get real, If I thought Mongia’s keeping was significantly better than Dhoni’s I would have just said so in plain words. Why would I use words like ‘perceptibly superior’, or ‘Apparently better skills’? It is your opinion that Mongia is better keeper than Dhoni, I cannot ‘debate’ someone’s opinion. There’s no point in me saying ‘prove to me Mongia is better keeper than Dhoni’ because you cant, just like how I cannot prove to you that Dhoni is better than Mongia. So the only way for me to talk is to ‘Even if we go by what you say…..’, because I am debating opinions , not facts. Again if you havent noticed already, every time I used the words ‘perceptibly inferior’, I would have immediately followed it up with a defence of MSD’s keeping skills. Why would I first concede MSD is an inferior keeper and then immediately follow it up with a defence of his skills? Anyways, I don’t know much about the online wins part, but if you want reduce everything to petty ‘he-said-she-said’, good for you.

[The Outsider]

I said ‘it was a perfectly fine pitch’? Good , so you’re simply making stuff up from thin air. Way to go! The fact of the matter is, irrespective of what Wisden ‘reported’, there’s nothing in either the scorecard or the circumstances of the Delhi test, to suggest that it was bad pitch for batsmen. If anything, half of our test wins in the 90s will fit that exact same profile.

Wrong! In half the test wins from the 90s you are referring to, we would pile up a good solid score of 400-500+. At Delhi, even our batsmen were unable to score runs, despite the absence of Warne. And yes, in the 90s there were some pitches in India which were terrible for batting as well - Ahmedabad against South Africa, Bombay against West Indies (where by the way Mongia scored an 80 odd against Walsh and Benjamin when the rest of the team folded up), and Calcutta against England come to mind. Go and check the Wisden reports for the matches in India during the 90s - they won't give inaccurate descriptions of pitches for all matches played in India. You will find that in some matches they would say that the pitch was underprepared/difficult and in other matches they would not say so. Now unless Wisden would have preempted that Shwetabh and Sriram are going to be discussing the difficulty of the Kotla pitch 15 years later and decided to side with Shwetabh for some reason, I don't see any reason to doubt their assessment, when you and I are in dispute over some thing. Actually, go through the Wisden reports of matches played in India during the 90s and find me another example where you think that their assessment of the pitch was inaccurate.

[patriot]

Some of the members who are discrediting and undermining Dhoni must clearly revisit their understanding of the game. Dhoni is neither elegant as a keeper nor as a batter. But he does both superbly, atleast when you consider the history of the Indian wicket keepers. Don't recollect him dropping any catch that has cost India a test matchlet alone having a bad series. He is super efficient. Then, as Marirs stated instances of his many rescue acts in such a short career - he is inarguably India's greatest ever wicket keeping batsman in tests. Add to that hitherto a most successful test captain. A point to Dhoni's critics - Gilchrist was never the best keeper even in Australia during his playing days let alone in the history of Australian cricket. That would inarguably be Rod Marsh and Healy - both all time great keepers and gritty bats. But even they will tell you that Gilchrist is the better all around keeping package. Dhoni is no Gilchrist as a batter in tests - but he is the best we ever had. His hard fought knocks have saved our @$$ many times. He averages 42+ with the bat. How many Indian keepers in the past have averaged 30 + ?

[f.b.m]

the ultimate embodiment of the classic 90s Indian cricketer – Average at best, mediocre at worst, conservative most times, even plain scared the other.

:woot: Havent found a better description of Badrinath ever! And its probably not just me but I find this whole exercise of making alltime XIs and quarrelling over them to be quite pointless. I mean wtf was that choice of captain bit?

[coffee_rules]

Dhoni >> Mongia in batting Mongia > Dhoni in keeping Dhoni >>>>> Mongia as captain. So, Dhoni is chosen over others because of this allround capabilities and how he can contribute to the team. If Gilly is chosen for Aus ATX1 for the same reason over other superior keepers, why can Dhoni be chosen for the same reason.