Harbhajan should have been punished - Symonds

[Desi Cartman]

discriminate... made fun of... yes racist... no The average Indian is not fully aware of what constitutes racism.

when a "bihari" gets slapped on the street for allowing a car or a scooter to crash into his cycle and is told " M**c*** bihari " I think he is aware that he is being discriminated. same with people who are working in new delhi are called chinki , I think they know its racial discrimination .

[yoda]

discriminate... made fun of... yes racist... no The average Indian is not fully aware of what constitutes racism.

well no one goes to a school to learn about racism. when you discriminate....make fun of...someone based on features (perceived to be) attributed to their race, it is racism. and whether you want to use the word racism or not, the intentions and the effects are the same.

[Zap_Brannigan]

when a "bihari" gets slapped on the street for allowing a car or a scooter to crash into his cycle and is told " M**c*** bihari " I think he is aware that he is being discriminated. same with people who are working in new delhi are called chinki , I think they know its racial discrimination .

Yes, but you call a person in India monkey and then call him a motherchor, guess which will offend him more. US, UK, Aus and many European countries have dealt with racism just in the recent past that they hold racism as the biggest slur (that too only to blacks and not mexicans or muslims or asians) but in India it is family honor. To Indians, its not fair that Aussies get away with calling everyone motherfker. I am not excusing what Bhajji did but I believe that he shouldn't be targeted without all the aussie players punished first.

[gloryof83]

well no one goes to a school to learn about racism. when you discriminate....make fun of...someone based on features (perceived to be) attributed to their race, it is racism. and whether you want to use the word racism or not, the intentions and the effects are the same.

that level of discrimination happens all over the world... including western countries. Not much can be done about that. Any where in the world, if someone is different (in appearance, physical features, background etc) from the majority they will be treated differently (can be discrimination / racism or something on a lower scale)... has been happening for centuries and will continue to happen.

[The Outsider]

Getting publicity is one thing on the other hand the content of his message is absolutely right. The ICC made a fool out of the Australian team and Harbhajan despite his racist remark got away. Harbhajan almost certainly called Symonds a "monkey" and should have been duly punished.

So, is it fair play to brand someone as a racist because it's 'almost certain' that he called Symonds a monkey? Not that I even agree with the 'almost certain' bit. Your comments in this thread appear to be a case of imposing a western standard of culture and norms on India. http://www.indiancricketfans.com/showthread.php?t=86970

[DomainK]

Seems the mental disintegration is permanent this time.

[Guest Gunner]

So, is it fair play to brand someone as a racist because it's 'almost certain' that he called Symonds a monkey? Not that I even agree with the 'almost certain' bit. Your comments in this thread appear to be a case of imposing a western standard of culture and norms on India. http://www.indiancricketfans.com/showthread.php?t=86970

I think whether Harbhajan called him a monkey or not can never be conclusively proved by you or me so we will leave it at that. I believe he did and you don't. As to the second part of your post regarding "western standard of culture and norms". This incident took place with the backdrop of the infamous India Vs Australia ODI series which happened in 2007 in India when racist monkey chants were made against symonds and everyone involved condemned it. After that everyone was aware that calling someone a "monkey" was being considered racism in other parts of the world, so isn't it a matter of decency to stop? It is well known in the west that the n-word is offensive but since it is the "western standard..." would you consider referring to an african-american as such?

[yoda]

that level of discrimination happens all over the world... including western countries. Not much can be done about that. Any where in the world, if someone is different (in appearance, physical features, background etc) from the majority they will be treated differently (can be discrimination / racism or something on a lower scale)... has been happening for centuries and will continue to happen.

Actually something is being done about it. It is illegal to discriminate against a person based on race in most western countries and there is ICC code of conduct to handle it as well.

[Manny_Pacquiao]

I think whether Harbhajan called him a monkey or not can never be conclusively proved by you or me so we will leave it at that. I believe he did and you don't.

It can be conclusively proved. sachin tendulkar went to court with harbhajan as a witness and stated that there was no racist remark and that he definitely said something else. i'll take tendulkar's word on this because he was right next to bhajji when they were batting together at sydney when this incident occured and also because tendulkar is a man of integrity in general indian cricket team backed bhajji on this one and its clear that they were standing up against an injustice being carried out against him.

[The Outsider]

I think whether Harbhajan called him a monkey or not can never be conclusively proved by you or me so we will leave it at that. I believe he did and you don't.

It's not a question of belief. You just can't brand someone as a racist without any evidence. The umpires were the only neutral parties on the field and heard nothing, nothing was recorded as audio or video evidence, and it came down to Tendulkar's word against Hayden and Clarke's. I know who I would feel comfortable trusting.

As to the second part of your post regarding "western standard of culture and norms". This incident took place with the backdrop of the infamous India Vs Australia ODI series which happened in 2007 in India when racist monkey chants were made against symonds and everyone involved condemned it. After that everyone was aware that calling someone a "monkey" was being considered racism in other parts of the world, so isn't it a matter of decency to stop?

Yeah, it would have been a matter of decency to stop. And for the ones who carried on could clearly be branded as boorish, rude, unruly etc. etc. Still does not make it racist because the initial motive behind the act was not racist, unless of course I am breaking the law. But I am talking more from the motive rather than the legality angle. I think with this I've addressed your next line as well - the question of motive.

[The Outsider]

I have seen people in shops address Blacks as hapshee ( Apes ).

Bhai, habshee does not mean apes. It is a genuine word which has been around for centuries and is used for Africans who were brought to India as slaves. Some of them later went on to hold important positions with various kingdoms, there might have been one habshee ruler in Gujarat of a small kingdom as well. Some still use habshee as their last name. It's certainly not racist, though I've heard it being used in a derogatory way at times.

[Guest Gunner]

It can be conclusively proved. sachin tendulkar went to court with harbhajan as a witness and stated that there was no racist remark and that he definitely said something else. i'll take tendulkar's word on this because he was right next to bhajji when they were batting together at sydney when this incident occured and also because tendulkar is a man of integrity in general indian cricket team backed bhajji on this one and its clear that they were standing up against an injustice being carried out against him.

I don't doubt SRT's word. Its quite possible that Harby didn't say it. I just ind it personally hard to believe Harbhajan's innocence, he seems to me like the kind of character who would say something like this with the full knowledge that it offends the other person. In any case your point is well taken. I cannot consider my personal belief as evidence.

[Guest Gunner]

It's not a question of belief. You just can't brand someone as a racist without any evidence. The umpires were the only neutral parties on the field and heard nothing, nothing was recorded as audio or video evidence, and it came down to Tendulkar's word against Hayden and Clarke's. I know who I would feel comfortable trusting. Yeah, it would have been a matter of decency to stop. And for the ones who carried on could clearly be branded as boorish, rude, unruly etc. etc. Still does not make it racist because the initial motive behind the act was not racist, unless of course I am breaking the law. But I am talking more from the motive rather than the legality angle. I think with this I've addressed your next line as well - the question of motive.

Fair enough on the first part. Regarding motive, assuming for a moment that harbhajan said what he did (I know, I know - SRT's evidence), do you doubt that his intention was racist considering that it had already been condemned in the recent past? Harby got away lightly on this one in all fairness.

[DomainK]

Fair enough on the first part. Regarding motive, assuming for a moment that harbhajan said what he did (I know, I know - SRT's evidence), do you doubt that his intention was racist considering that it had already been condemned in the recent past? Harby got away lightly on this one in all fairness.

Harbhajan has a short fuse, but he is certainly not racist. Again, just based on a singular accusations that was proved unfounded later, you can not brand him a racist. He has never showed any proof of racist thoughts or behavior, so why cant we leave him alone?

[The Outsider]

Regarding motive, assuming for a moment that harbhajan said what he did (I know, I know - SRT's evidence), do you doubt that his intention was racist considering that it had already been condemned in the recent past?

If Harbhajan did say it, it still would not have any racial motive behind it. Harbhajan would say it purely because he knew how much it irritates Symonds, and not because Harbhajan thinks that Symonds' batting, or his despicable behavior, or anything has been determined by the fact that Symonds has black origins, which is what racism is - the belief that human traits are determined solely by their genes and to generalize negative traits amongst that group. Does Harbhajan believe that all blacks are drunk, boorish bastards like Symonds or that Symonds is the way he is because he is black? I highly doubt it.

Harby got away lightly on this one in all fairness.

There was no evidence.

[thongale]

The ape has spoken. PS: Note that I have not used the word "monkey"

[ludhianvi]

I don't doubt SRT's word. Its quite possible that Harby didn't say it. I just ind it personally hard to believe Harbhajan's innocence, he seems to me like the kind of character who would say something like this with the full knowledge that it offends the other person. In any case your point is well taken. I cannot consider my personal belief as evidence.

If you dont doubt SRT's word, then Habhajan didnt say it. Case closed Otherwise, you're just contradicting yourself

[ravishingravi]

He did say it, but I think the Aussies blew the whole thing out of proportion. Once you start sledging, there can be no rules imo

[Guest Gunner]

If you dont doubt SRT's word, then Habhajan didnt say it. Case closed Otherwise, you're just contradicting yourself

I already agreed saar. I said my personal belief about harby is not evidence.

[ludhianvi]

I already agreed saar. I said my personal belief about harby is not evidence.

No, there's a difference. Your personal belief is that Harby said it but on the other hand you also dont doubt SRT's word. Hence the contradiction. :winky: