Clarke Posted February 2, 2011 Posted February 2, 2011 RSS ki Sazish :ohmy: What next, campaign to free Amar Singh ? This guy is still the General Secretary of Kangress :hmmm:
hari504504 Posted February 2, 2011 Posted February 2, 2011 We would have ended up with a more religiously homogeneous and a smaller population, as most probably more Muslims would have left for pakistan. But this is now long past us, all we can do is to learn lessons from history but unfortunately that isnt happening either. As far as "secular" goes, India might have declared itself a secular state in name, but what we got instead was pseudo-secularism into which appeasement was incorporated. This happened because secularism was forced from the top only onto the majority community. In this process the whole principle was compromised and over time this compromises have been entrenched and manifest themselves as intractable problems. This bizarre secularism of India has created an absurd discourse in which the demand for a Uniform Civil Code is called communal, whereas religion based reservation/subsidy is called secular; the teaching of accurate history of conflicts in India is called communal; declaring Muslims have the first right to natural resources is called secular. Well I choose not to laud this perverted principle of secularism. homogenous population ? - among Hindus there are a biliion variations of caste within the religeon - created by people who interpreted the vedas to suit their purpose. You think a population devoid of muslims would be 'more' homogenous ? ,and what about all the contributions made by the Muslims to our nation - surely you can't be discounting that - including one APJ Abdul Kalam I agree with you on the reservation/subsidy bit. Not only for muslims or any other religeon, but also among hindus there are the OBCs and SCs etc. I am all for providing the right environment for these groups to compete with the rest- whether it be providing books or free lessons etc..but this must stop short of giving them a free ticket to an institution/ govt job of their choice. I think secularism is all about equal opportunity not freebies.
seedhi Posted February 2, 2011 Posted February 2, 2011 homogenous population ? - among Hindus there are a biliion variations of caste within the religeon - created by people who interpreted the vedas to suit their purpose. You think a population devoid of muslims would be 'more' homogenous ? ' date='and what about all the contributions made by the Muslims to our nation - surely you can't be discounting that - including one APJ Abdul Kalam[/quote']You are de-contextualizing this. The context is that pakistan was carved out of India as an islamic state. And a huge majority of the muslim electorate supported the demand by voting for Muslim League. At that point in history, declaring India a dharmic state would have been justified. Instead Nehru etal opted for secularism. The question is this: did we get the secularism we were promised? Has secularism succeeded in India? Was it reasonable to impose the concept of secularism? Are all communities in India equally receptive to this principle? What does Kashmir teach us? These are questions worth analyzing. We cannot go back and undo or alter partition but we can surely learn from the last 65 years juxtaposed with pre-independence history as well. I agree with you on the reservation/subsidy bit. Not only for muslims or any other religeon, but also among hindus there are the OBCs and SCs etc. I am all for providing the right environment for these groups to compete with the rest- whether it be providing books or free lessons etc..but this must stop short of giving them a free ticket to an institution/ govt job of their choice. I think secularism is all about equal opportunity not freebies.Yes true secularism is all about equal opportunity, rights and non-discrimination. The "secularism" of India is anything but, and it is "communal" to point this out.
CSK Fan Posted February 2, 2011 Posted February 2, 2011 You are de-contextualizing this. The context is that pakistan was carved out of India as an islamic state. And a huge majority of the muslim electorate supported the demand by voting for Muslim League. At that point in history, declaring India a dharmic state would have been justified. Instead Nehru etal opted for secularism. The question is this: did we get the secularism we were promised? Has secularism succeeded in India? Was it reasonable to impose the concept of secularism? Are all communities in India equally receptive to this principle? What does Kashmir teach us? These are questions worth analyzing. We cannot go back and undo or alter partition but we can surely learn from the last 65 years juxtaposed with pre-independence history as well. Yes true secularism is all about equal opportunity, rights and non-discrimination. The "secularism" of India is anything but, and it is "communal" to point this out. You have no idea about how a nation works. The fact that a chain is only as strong as its weakest link is not just a saying. Africa and South Africa still has quotas for the blacks for a reason. Unless the weakest of your nation, be it muslim or women or untouchables, are brought on par with the rich majority, the nation cannot progress! You have to bring the weaker brothers to equal status before you even talk of equality! I see the positive discrimination shown to muslims in the same light as the positive discrimination shown to low castes and women. Well the upper castes and men might be bothered by it but if our country have to progress fast, this is the ideal way As for the idea of a country formed completely on religion, you just have to look at Pakistan to know how such an idea would fail quickly! all the realties which led Pakistan to its doom would have been applicable for a hindu India too!
seedhi Posted February 3, 2011 Posted February 3, 2011 You have no idea about how a nation works. The fact that a chain is only as strong as its weakest link is not just a saying. Africa and South Africa still has quotas for the blacks for a reason. Unless the weakest of your nation' date=' be it muslim or women or untouchables, are brought on par with the rich majority, the nation cannot progress! You have to bring the weaker brothers to equal status before you even talk of equality! I see the positive discrimination shown to muslims in the same light as the positive discrimination shown to low castes and women. Well the upper castes and men might be bothered by it but if our country have to progress fast, this is the ideal way[/quote']Blacks in SA and SC/STs in India have been historically discriminated to an utmost extent. When have muslims been similarly discriminated against in India? If anything during the muslim rule, it were the Hindus who were at the receiving end. On top of all this muslims demanded a separate islamic state and they got 1/5th of the country as well. And even if one agrees to positive discrimination for backward classes amongst the muslims, pray tell us how will Uniform Civil Code impede the muslims? How does denying divorced muslim women alimony (which Hindu women get) help the muslims? How is secularism preserved by overturning a Supreme Court verdict to satisfy the mullahs? USA has uniform personal laws - does that impede muslims living in the US?As for the idea of a country formed completely on religion, you just have to look at Pakistan to know how such an idea would fail quickly! all the realties which led Pakistan to its doom would have been applicable for a hindu India too!I can only infer that states formed on the basis of Islam have a rough time. How can you extrapolate this to say dharmic state shall also fail like an islamic one? Israel was founded by Jews as a jewish state, but it has been a huge success in front of tremendous odds.
Baad Indian Posted February 3, 2011 Posted February 3, 2011 Israel was founded by Jews as a jewish state, but it has been a huge success in front of tremendous odds. Good Point . But as you said somewhere , " what belongs to them , belongs to them" , but whatever belongs to us , is negotiable . When our own people agree with the same notion and would love to become slaves in the future , then who are we to blame the Green Brigade.
ravishingravi Posted February 3, 2011 Posted February 3, 2011 Then you would say they migrated out of the country - it is due to economic reasons than political. But then again, I guess that is the perception among the majority in India. Same as the Pakis thinking that 'Godhra' is a regular occurrence in our country and the muslims are struggling to live in India. I was told first-hand by a Pak Hindu from Sindh that there is a vibrant hindu community in Pakistan and they are mostly traders/businessmen. They have not been discriminated against . They celebrate holi,diwali etc with their muslim neighbours . It is only recently that the radicals started filtering in from NWFP with all the threats on temples,infidels etc - and guess who is rallying in front of em to protect them ... I would say no such thing. I would post article after article on state of minorities in Pakistan including Hindus from pak. newpapers. As for Pakis perception about India, I can't speak for them. But it is interesting, you counter to what you implicitly call prejudice with "I was told first-hand by a Pak Hindu from Sindh". If this alleged 3rd person encounter is the best one can put forth to counter opinions then you know where the problem lies. To carry your analogy forward, if a Pakistani makes a claim that Indian muslims are doing wonderfully well because he just happen to speak to a businessman from Baroda, it would be as naive a claim as your is because they aren't. Personal encounters cant be passed of for arguments.
Rajiv Posted February 3, 2011 Posted February 3, 2011 Stats can be very deceptive unless you scrutinize them. Don't you think the above scenario happened more because the majority population increased at a faster rate than the Hindus ?... Then you would say they migrated out of the country - it is due to economic reasons than political. But then again, I guess that is the perception among the majority in India. Same as the Pakis thinking that 'Godhra' is a regular occurrence in our country and the muslims are struggling to live in India. I was told first-hand by a Pak Hindu from Sindh that there is a vibrant hindu community in Pakistan and they are mostly traders/businessmen. They have not been discriminated against . They celebrate holi,diwali etc with their muslim neighbours . It is only recently that the radicals started filtering in from NWFP with all the threats on temples,infidels etc - and guess who is rallying in front of em to protect them ... Not true at all, totally opposite
seedhi Posted February 3, 2011 Posted February 3, 2011 Good Point . But as you said somewhere , " what belongs to them , belongs to them" , but whatever belongs to us , is negotiable . When our own people agree with the same notion and would love to become slaves in the future , then who are we to blame the Green Brigade.Of course this state of affairs has been the singular failure of the rulers of India, they are more to blame than the mullah brigade.
straight.drive Posted February 3, 2011 Posted February 3, 2011 You have no idea about how a nation works. The fact that a chain is only as strong as its weakest link is not just a saying. Africa and South Africa still has quotas for the blacks for a reason. Unless the weakest of your nation' date= be it muslim or women or untouchables, are brought on par with the rich majority, the nation cannot progress! You have to bring the weaker brothers to equal status before you even talk of equality! I see the positive discrimination shown to muslims in the same light as the positive discrimination shown to low castes and women. Well the upper castes and men might be bothered by it but if our country have to progress fast, this is the ideal way As for the idea of a country formed completely on religion, you just have to look at Pakistan to know how such an idea would fail quickly! all the realties which led Pakistan to its doom would have been applicable for a hindu India too! That's the idea that was an epic :fail: . :bow::bow: Pity the left loonies still harbor the dream of that impossible utopia.
vaibhav_delhi Posted February 3, 2011 Posted February 3, 2011 Blacks in SA and SC/STs in India have been historically discriminated to an utmost extent. When have muslims been similarly discriminated against in India? If anything during the muslim rule, it were the Hindus who were at the receiving end. On top of all this muslims demanded a separate islamic state and they got 1/5th of the country as well. I can only infer that states formed on the basis of Islam have a rough time. How can you extrapolate this to say dharmic state shall also fail like an islamic one? Israel was founded by Jews as a jewish state, but it has been a huge success in front of tremendous odds. That's the idea that was an epic :fail: . :bow::bow: Pity the left loonies still harbor the dream of that impossible utopia. ++
CSK Fan Posted February 3, 2011 Posted February 3, 2011 That's the idea that was an epic :fail: . :bow::bow: Pity the left loonies still harbor the dream of that impossible utopia. Really? That idea is still going strong and the quotas for the STs/OBCs have been succesful in bringing them to the mainstream rather than joining arms with people like Naxals
straight.drive Posted February 3, 2011 Posted February 3, 2011 ^^^ Thank god you did not mean the absolute equality that rings again and again in the pages of Communist manifesto. Affirmative action is counter-productive. It drives the talent away to foreign land.
vaibhav_delhi Posted February 3, 2011 Posted February 3, 2011 Really? That idea is still going strong and the quotas for the STs/OBCs have been succesful in bringing them to the mainstream rather than joining arms with people like Naxals Muslims are much more economically capable than SC\STs. Its unfair to other religious fractions including the hindus to give them reservations. I think there is need for making education mandatory for muslims. An uneducated muslim is much more likely to be intolerant, irrational, anti-national n violent than uneducated youth of any other religion.
hari504504 Posted February 3, 2011 Posted February 3, 2011 Personal encounters cant be passed of for arguments. There is no 'argument' here to begin with. This is no court-room battle. I've nothing to gain by convincing anyone here that Pak is a secular country or a dangerous islamic state. Just wanted to discuss the general Indian idea of minorities being repressed in Pakistan. Only because I for one was completely taken by surprise to know that there are affluent Hindu/Sikh families within an 'Islamic Pakistan' - who vouch for their country as much as the Indian muslims vouch for ours. Sure there are newspaper reports of minorities being hounded there - but can't we say the same for India, Or even the US for that matter ? - gobbling up every crumb the media throws at you and forming opinions purely based on that results in a pretty naive view of the world.
coffee_rules Posted February 3, 2011 Posted February 3, 2011 ^^ how did you go from a 'vibrant/affluent Hindu community vouching for their country' personal encounter to 'Hindus staying in Pakistan because they believed in an Islamic republic of Pakistan'?
hari504504 Posted February 4, 2011 Posted February 4, 2011 ^^ Well then you tell me why the Hindus and Sikhs stayed back in Pak ?..and continue to living there after 50 odd years if they don't believe that the country would protect them and their interests I am just looking for a convincing viewpoint/opinion on this matter , because points like 'they were poor' etc doesn't seem to make much sense.
Baad Indian Posted February 4, 2011 Posted February 4, 2011 ^^ Well then you tell me why the Hindus and Sikhs stayed back in Pak ?..and continue to living there after 50 odd years if they don't believe that the country would protect them and their interests I am just looking for a convincing viewpoint/opinion on this matter , because points like 'they were poor' etc doesn't seem to make much sense. Dont talk as if there are 100 Million Sikhs living in Pakistan right now . They are only around 10000 and this is what happens to them .http://www.indianexpress.com/news/three-sikhs-beheaded-by-pak-taliban/582704/ Prior to Partition , most of the Sikhs were settled in Western Punjab and since there are only 10000 living in Pakistan right now clearly indicates that most of the Sikhs came over to India during 1947 and the ones who living in Pakistan are just left overs , Partition was a Brutal Incident so you can never expect 100% People to successfully cross the border . And for the Hindus , this is how they are treated in Land of Pure. http://www.thehindu.com/news/international/article512346.ece
Rajiv Posted February 5, 2011 Posted February 5, 2011 ^^ Well then you tell me why the Hindus and Sikhs stayed back in Pak ?..and continue to living there after 50 odd years if they don't believe that the country would protect them and their interests I am just looking for a convincing viewpoint/opinion on this matter , because points like 'they were poor' etc doesn't seem to make much sense. My ex-wife is a Hindu Pak, first of all - they want out and you will find many migrating mainly due to the fact that they face bias at every step and basically need to behave like Pakis in order to be acceptable. Most of them stayed back simply due to land and business ( Waderas aka Landlords etc ) purpose and when you talk about Pak Hindus, its mainly sindhis and the fact that Sindh ( the land itself is in Pak ). People didn't anticipate how its going to shape up in Modern Pakistan which is an out and out Islamization. Pak Hindus are encouraged to say " Allah " and tweak their names to sound like a Muslim, you are checked by ISI, you cannot join the armed forces, encouraged to eat beef and celebrate festivals with very little exposure. An office with a Ramesh and Mohan cannot be promoted as easy as a Muslim The Ultra Rich will always have influence, so they are not typically affected but in general, life is not good for Hindus in Pak and they migrate to India and abroad in large numbers It is by far the dirtiest place with the worst sect of ppl on this planet
Rajiv Posted February 6, 2011 Posted February 6, 2011 http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/pakistan/Hindu-man-gunned-down-in-Pak/articleshow/7436550.cms
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