We learned nothing from the match against England?

[DomainK]

When they fell like nine pins after Sachin's brilliant century against Sachin, I thought to myself that it happens, they will learn from it not to get complacent after a Sachin century. But today they pulled off a collapse that would put even the Pakistani batsmen to shame. When will this trend stop? When will these idiots learn to add something to a Sachin century?

[Karan114]

True...I thought the England game was bad but this was, as you say, a collapse that would put even the paks to shame :((

[EnterTheVoid]

I think they were tyring to go all out in the power play overs since they didn't know what score India could sucessfully defend. In doing so, collapse.

[coffee_rules]

I thought India slowed down right after Sehwag. We are 8+ RPO. The next fives overs went to 23 runs. 10 overs 48 runs That brought the RR down....If they had a healthy 6 average after PP2..India would have crossed 300 easily.

[Sachin=GOD]

Once one or two batsmen make runs the rest of the batting only has to bat sensibly for the rest of the innings and we could get good scores in all matches - these fools are simply unable to do this. We need a very good and reliable finisher - either Yuvriaj in full form or Raina back in the team.

[zaheer]

True... Tendulkar must be wondering how much more does he have to do!! Brings back the memories of 90s again!!

[DomainK]

Now looking at that team huddle, I see a Tendulkar looking like nothing has happened. He looks excited like a child. How this man keeps his composure is beyond me. I would have been mad as hell if I was in his place today.

[diegovegaz]

indians never learn anything our batsmen will fail to apply themselves, fielding will stay below average, and bowling pathetic :hysterical:

[Ranjha]

We learned from England game that to never give up from a hopeless situation and that we can still pull of a sensational win or a tie. Same is hoped today. Lets see if they learned something:D

[Chandan]

We learned from England game that to never give up from a hopeless situation and that we can still pull of a sensational win or a tie. Same is hoped today. Lets see if they learned something:D

And when will Dhoni learn not to tinker with the batting line up with such one dimensional players in the team? Kohli can't play lower that # 4. He is all at sea whenever he has been demoted. Same can be said with the promotion of Pathan. He has not succeeded at #3, neither at#4. So why not keep him where he he is? Afterall he and Kohli are keeping Raina out. Their successive failures might lead them to losing their confidence. Dhoni was very poor tactically throughout this match and Smith was way ahead of him and forced him to do the way he wanted as Dhoni kept on falling for it. It was disappointing!

[asterix]

And when will Dhoni learn not to tinker with the batting line up with such one dimensional players in the team? Kohli can't play lower that # 4. He is all at sea whenever he has been demoted. Same can be said with the promotion of Pathan. He has not succeeded at #3, neither at#4. So why not keep him where he he is? Afterall he and Kohli are keeping Raina out. Their successive failures might lead them to losing their confidence. Dhoni was very poor tactically throughout this match and Smith was way ahead of him and forced him to do the way he wanted as Dhoni kept on falling for it. It was disappointing!

The moment Pathan came out to bat, I mentioned, it's a bad move in the match thread..The runrate was above 6.5 at that stage and there was no need to send Pathan.. This tinkering with the batting line up was done in the second match running. So we are not learning from our mistakes..

[Chandan]

Looks like news papers or jouralists are also one of us. Even the language used here is similar: Link Needless tinkering in batting order Sanjjeev Karan Samyal, Hindustan Times Nagpur, March 13, 2011 A golden rule in cricket is not to toy with your top order. Experimenting is welcome, but with the lower order. The top four should stay untouched. At this World Cup, no batting line-up compares to the might of Tendulkar & Co, but the Indian team management is taking a risk by tinkering with this golden rule. And, the results of this experiment so far in the tournament only underline the point. Past experience Every time skipper Mahendra Singh Dhoni has shuffled his batting order, it has not paid off. It failed against minnows Netherlands, and it was tried again against South Africa on Saturday with disastrous results. Virat Kohli, who started off the tournament with a brilliant hundred at No 4, was again shuffled down the order, and he was all at sea. So too was Yusuf Pathan, who was promoted to make the most of the powerplays. The Baroda player, batting at No 4, was out for a duck, and Kohli at No 7 was out for one. Result: It triggered a collapse which saw India losing their last nine wickets for just 29 runs. Misplaced at No. 4 Against Netherlands, Yusuf at No 3 scored 11 and Kohli at No 5 made 12. It is clear that Yusuf is struggling to adapt to the No 4 position and Kohli is clueless down the order. Yusuf needs to understand that batting in the last 10 overs is not just about big hits from ball one while Kohli just doesn't seem to have the game for the power finish. The fear is that due to failures the two may end up losing their confidence. Given India's heavy reliance on its batting might, it could be disastrous for its campaign. Powerplay a worry For all the intimidating names in the line-up, there is still some concern over their strategy in the batting powerplay. The home batsmen's poor performance against South Africa at the Vidarbha Cricket Association Stadium on Saturday served another reminder of it. They took the powerplay at 258 for one in the 39th over and at the end of the five-over period, India had lost four wickets for just 30 runs. It was the period in which SA got back into the game from a hopeless position as Dale Steyn took two wickets, and Morne Morkel and Jacques Kallis claimed one wicket each.

[maniac]

The moment Pathan came out to bat, I mentioned, it's a bad move in the match thread..The runrate was above 6.5 at that stage and there was no need to send Pathan.. This tinkering with the batting line up was done in the second match running. So we are not learning from our mistakes..

Totally Agree.Yuvraj or even Dhoni should have come in.Atleast Dhoni would have score 20*(35) which would have given us a better target.

[maniac]

True... Tendulkar must be wondering how much more does he have to do!! Brings back the memories of 90s again!!

:((

[Anakin]

True... Tendulkar must be wondering how much more does he have to do!! Brings back the memories of 90s again!!

Simple, bat all 50 overs with taking singles every single over except the last one. Then bowl 10 overs taking 10 wkts.

[someone]

Problems and Solutions Just needed to see something obvious. There is no "golden" solution for anything in the world. I am really surprised by many of you coming up with your "perfect" team and "perfect" strategies for Indian team at the next match. But it is totally nonsense and incorrect. There is no correct and wrong solution. Especially in sports, where luck plays a huge part and you have to perform on that day. Either accept that or you will always be disappointed with the Indian team as they will never play the "perfect" game as many of you imagined but in reality does not even exist. So support the team and remember no one knows the future. So you cannot praise a captain who came at no.4 and scored good runs vs a captain at no.4 but very bad runs. Stop using Hindsight.

[yoda]

ok

[pinkfreud]

We need a very good and reliable finisher - either Yuvriaj in full form

That's not happened for a good two years; I doubt it will happen in a matter of days :giggle: I personally think when Dhoni made the 'playing to the crowd' comment, he was referring to both Yusuf and Yuvraj. Yusuf played a terrible shot but he shouldn't be blamed for our captain's 'smart' decision to push him up the order the second time in a row, especially after Pathan failed to put up a show the first time. Yuvraj, on the other hand, was doing tuk tuk tuk in the matches so far and suddenly tried to open with a bang. He started out by hitting a 6 and probably thought he could do a rerun of that six sixes incident against Botha this time around in my opinion he was really pandering to the crowd. At the risk of ruffling a few feathers here, I'd say Yuvraj is a selfish player more often than not.

[Zap_Brannigan]

Does batting order really matter? I dont understand how it is drastically different for Pathan if he comes in at #4 or at #7, if its both at the 40th over? It wasnt the batting order that made us collapse (although i would have preferred yuvi instead of Pathan but it didnt matter as Ghambir got out 2 balls later) but it was the attitude in the Powerplay. We see it as some kind of a hit out or get out session and thus aim too high. India has to see power play # 3 as overs akin to the 2nd power play; i.e. If they find the gap then its a 4, If a wicket is lost then slow down etc. There is no need to relentlessly go after the bowling after 2 4's in the over (Sachin) or after losing wickets (Ghambir, Yuvi) or without getting your eye in (Pathan).

[Chandan]

Just needed to see something obvious. There is no "golden" solution for anything in the world. I am really surprised by many of you coming up with your "perfect" team and "perfect" strategies for Indian team at the next match. But it is totally nonsense and incorrect. There is no correct and wrong solution. Especially in sports, where luck plays a huge part and you have to perform on that day. Either accept that or you will always be disappointed with the Indian team as they will never play the "perfect" game as many of you imagined but in reality does not even exist. So support the team and remember no one knows the future. So you cannot praise a captain who came at no.4 and scored good runs vs a captain at no.4 but very bad runs. Stop using Hindsight.

So true Someone. My old internet friend Kartikeya is of the same view here: Hard Choices and their Criticism Here is an issue which has bothered me for a while now. Despite his recent heroics, I don't think Yusuf Pathan is a particularly reliable batsman, and so, in ODI games, where circumstances can require you to build innings, I remain unconvinced as to whether Yusuf merits a spot ahead of Suresh Raina, who, despite his recent troubles against the short ball, has been a stellar lower-middle-order bat for India in ODI cricket in India. MS Dhoni has been criticized for promoting Yusuf Pathan to number 4. I take this comment to be representative of a way of arguing, which I place at issue in this post. I'm always suspicious of such "criticism", whose starting pointing is that MS Dhoni was wrong, and the critics are right. This sounds more like second guessing to me. Yusuf's terrible batting average in the upper order has been pointed out as cut and dried evidence of Dhoni's folly. But obviously (even though to critics offering this argument, this doesn't appear obvious at all), batting at number 4 with 30 overs to play is different from batting at number 4 with 12 overs to play, at the beginning of a batting powerplay which has already been taken! So simply pointing to Yusuf's stats at number 4 is ridiculous. It cannot even be considered a reasonable argument. As for sending Kohli, if Virat Kohli had made say 21(23) balls and gotten out, these same people would have been screaming at Dhoni for not sending in a heavy hitter. I can just see it - "Powerplay, 12 overs to go, 9 wickets in hand, and you don't send in your biggest hitter? What are you thinking? Are you even thinking? You must be brain dead" - or something to this effect. Dhoni would have been accused of being unimaginative. When relentless contempt and second guessing masquerades as criticism and expertise, this sort of thing is inevitable. Im always amused when armchair critics (its an old phrase, but it retains its bite) accuse a national captain of naive captaincy based on a decision which didn't work. Its impossible to prove the opposite would have worked, and its impossible to prove that it wouldn't. Its the perfect zero accountability situation. When it is pointed out that this is the best XI we have, the response invariably is, "True, but that doesn't mean that he's good". And yet, these people realistically expect these same players to win a tournament featuring the best players in the world! Lets look at Yusuf Pathan's stats a little more closely than Dhoni's critics have done. Pathan has batted 31 times in ODI cricket against non-minnow teams (i.e. test playing teams other than Bangladesh and Zimbabwe). Of these, he has been dismissed for a score of 5 or less 13 times (42% of the time). Of these 31 times, Pathan has come in to bat after the 35th over of the innings 13 times, and before the 35th over of the innings 18 times. Of these 18, 12 innings have been played at number 7. So in any serious sense, Yusuf Pathan has been promoted up the batting order - i.e been promoted ahead of a batsman, with a sufficient number of overs remaining 6 times in 31 innings (20% of his innings). Of these 18 innings a couple of innings have been in truncated games due to rain. So when Dhoni sent Pathan in to bat in the 40th over of India's innings, he was in fact, doing the opposite of what critics have accused him of doing. He was not "promoting" Pathan in the sense of disrupting the batting order, but was in fact, was playing Yusuf Pathan in his comfort zone, and more importantly, not playing Virat Kohli outside his comfort zone. It was a conservative choice, and not the gamble that it is considered to be. At 267/1 with 11 overs to go, what India wanted was someone to smash a 50 in no time and put the total beyond South Africa's reach. Yusuf Pathan, Yuvraj and Dhoni were reasonable choices, more reasonable than Kohli, who is a fine player, but who is no big hitter. I have been hesitant about being too critical of the 9/29 batting collapse in the last 11 overs of India's innings. It was a combination of the powerplay - where the new batsman had to take chances (chances which by their very nature need not always come off, as they didn't in this case), and some superb end over bowling from the magical Dale Steyn that caused the collapse. Tactics are easy to criticize, but much of this criticism does not withstand scrutiny as I have shown - in this case because it accuses Dhoni of doing something that he didn't actually do - i.e. gamble by promoting the heavy hitter Pathan to number 4 in the batting order. Pathan batted at 4, but it wasn't a gamble. I don't think it can be taken seriously as criticism because its of a very poor quality. But it is worth responding to, because even though it may not be of good quality, it is important, because it shapes the public conversation about, and the public identity of Dhoni as a captain. This brings me to Yusuf Pathan. After his tremendous batting in South Africa and at home against New Zealand, it is difficult to ignore Yusuf Pathan, because on his day, he is a match winner, and a match winner from virtually any position. He's the one man in the India side who can score at 40 ball century on his day. The thing is though, that this is not the sort of thing one can rely on. It is invariably a bonus. If India were chasing 325, they couldn't plan their run chase to be 150/1 in 30 overs, with Yusuf in their ranks. They would still have to go hammer and tongs in the early powerplay overs (not that Sehwag would ever play in any other way). Yusuf is basically a luxury. India, it could be argued, can afford such a luxury given the quality of their specialist batsmen, and given how well their captain bats in ODIs. It is worth asking though, if this is a good World Cup winning strategy. What if India were to pick the more reliable, but less explosive Suresh Raina ahead of the more explosive Yusuf Pathan? This would, in my view, ease the batting pressure on MS Dhoni. What if Dhoni took on Yusuf Pathan's pinch hitting role. Dhoni is probably not as good at big hitting as Yusuf is, but he's much surer. Dhoni's choice is not between Kohli and Raina, but between Yusuf and Raina. His other dilemma, in my view, concerns Ravichandran Ashwin. Ashwin is considered, in some quarters, to be the best limited overs off-spinner in the country. Harbhajan Singh is a superb bowler. Graeme Swann is generally considered the best off-spinner in the World, but Swann struggled against a troubled Australian batting line up in Australia, and Harbhajan Singh actually out-bowled Swann in South Africa (without the benefit of the fast bowling support that Swann gets from England's fast men). Can India play 2 specialist off-spinners in the same side? West Indies, with 5 lefties in their XI - Gayle, Smith, Bravo, Chanderpaul and Benn, would be the team to do this against. But it leaves India's spin attack with limited variety (Yusuf Pathan bowls off-breaks as well). Should MS Dhoni be bloody minded and forget about variety in the interests of quality and play three off-spinners? Finally, I think India's batting faces something of a problem at the end of an ODI innings. What is a reasonable number of runs in the last 10 overs of an ODI, for a team which has the batting powerplay in hand, and wickets in hand. 80 runs? 90 runs? 120 runs? There seems to be a tendency to go for everything they can get, and in the process, they are becoming less calculating in their batting in the last 10 overs of the innings than they should be. I think this is what Dhoni meant when he criticized them for playing to the gallery (this is another of those MS Dhoni comments which, though possessing substantial merit, need not have been publicly posed). I think you will find a more measured batting effort in the coming games. Things like - if they get a four early in the over, then they consolidate to make it a 10 run over instead of pushing for the 18 run over and taking even more chances. There are no easy choices for India personnel wise. The combination refuses to be right. And simplistic criticism of the kind that he is prone to getting, does not make Dhoni's job any easier. By the very nature of his job he has to make debatable choices, some of which are not going to come off (because he does not have three Zaheer Khans, 2 Harbhajan Singhs and 5 Tendulkars to play alongside him in the XI). Difficult choices are difficult precisely because there is no easy way to make them. The next time you are tempted to think "what an idiot! he should have done precisely the opposite!", take a moment and be self-critical. It will help MS Dhoni and India.