Neutral umpires and their impact on subcontinental teams

[Utalk]

Manny what's your opinion on this? Rahul Dravid has been fined 50% of his match fee, after being found guilty of ball-tampering during India's 24-run victory over Zimbabwe at Brisbane.

[Raghav_12]

Did India really win only one test away from home in 90s. Now I know why some of these guys are so insecure about 80s and 90s. Guys move on you have a fantastic side now so there is no point getting depressed about the past that can't be changed.

Man.. Looks like you are not very brilliant with logical reasoning. There are three facts: 1. India was a poor to mediocre team from mid 80's to good part of 90's 2. Pakistan was a good team in 80's and a bit at the start of 90's decade. 3. Paki umpires were blatant cheater and umpiring standards in Pakistan were pathetic to say the least. Now I believe in all these three facts. But here in this thread we talking about fact no. 3. Now you enlighten me that how fact no 1 or fact no 2 contradict fact no. 3. I, with my little mind, don't see any relation btw India being rubbish at home or away and Pakistani umpires being cheat.

[Raghav_12]

For manny Raghav and other blind haters. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sachin_Tendulkar The match referee Mike Denness found Sachin Tendulkar guilty of ball tampering charges and handed him a one Test match ban.

Manny what's your opinion on this? Rahul Dravid has been fined 50% of his match fee, after being found guilty of ball-tampering during India's 24-run victory over Zimbabwe at Brisbane.

Your these couple of posts further confirm that there is some problem with the way you derive logic. Me and Manny talked about the instances where Pakistani fast bowlers themselves admitted of doing ball tempering. You equating that with the case when somebody has been accused of doing the same. I hope you see the difference between these two. Also, if you had picked any examples other than the ones which involve Sachin and Dravid, your post would have been more credible, now it just comes as an example of trolling. I am not a pakistan hater, love some of their players, but fact is that just before start of neutral umpiring, Pakistan was notoriously infamous for it's umpires.

[Utalk]

Your these couple of posts further confirm that there is some problem with the way you derive logic. Me and Manny talked about the instances where Pakistani fast bowlers themselves admitted of doing ball tempering. You equating that with the case when somebody has been accused of doing the same. I hope you see the difference between these two. Also, if you had picked any examples other than the ones which involve Sachin and Dravid, your post would have been more credible, now it just comes as an example of trolling. I am not a pakistan hater, love some of their players, but fact is that just before start of neutral umpiring, Pakistan was notoriously infamous for it's umpires.

Maye you were the bringing bottle caps into it when I showed you our awesome record in India with Indian umpires and Eng. If you cant take it dont dish it out. BTW found guilty is not merely accused.

[Utalk]

Man.. Looks like you are not very brilliant with logical reasoning. There are three facts: 1. India was a poor to mediocre team from mid 80's to good part of 90's 2. Pakistan was a good team in 80's and a bit at the start of 90's decade. 3. Paki umpires were blatant cheater and umpiring standards in Pakistan were pathetic to say the least. Now I believe in all these three facts. But here in this thread we talking about fact no. 3. Now you enlighten me that how fact no 1 or fact no 2 contradict fact no. 3. I, with my little mind, don't see any relation btw India being rubbish at home or away and Pakistani umpires being cheat.

You and logical reasons? Who was the one using word bottle tops when I proved our record with away or neutral umpires in certain counties.

[BeautifulGame]

For manny Raghav and other blind haters. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sachin_Tendulkar The match referee Mike Denness found Sachin Tendulkar guilty of ball tampering charges and handed him a one Test match ban.

Tendulkar not guilty of ball-tampering, say ICC http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2001/nov/29/cricket2 I am sure u would find Guardian a more reliable info than wiki ofcourse unless u use lahori logic.

[Raghav_12]

You and logical reasons? Who was the one using word bottle tops when I proved our record with away or neutral umpires in certain counties.

Well I used word Bottle Caps because I see bottle caps as a reason for Pakistan's success in England. Now you may agree or disagree with the fact that Pakistanis used bottle caps, but if they did, as I believe, than both the things are very well related, logically speaking. Now, you tell me how India being rubbish in 80's, which you keep bringing again and again, is logically related with Pakistani umpires being cheat

[putrevus]

Were Pakistani umpiring in India? How would you explain this embarrassing HOME record against Pakistan. In Pakistan umpires were cheats, In sharjah they were bought and In India they were.........fill in the blanks.....? filtered 1983-2005 21 15 6 0 0 2.50 15 wins in 21 in India with your own umpires proves you were rubbish back then. Even in tests we won in 87 and won two tests in 99 losing only one. We had a better team 87-2003 and you have been better since.

Of course you had better team from 87 to 2003 , Your team had one of best left arm fast bowler of all time in Wasim and one very good bowler in Waqar during that time.My views were more about times of Kapil Dev and Imran Khan in their prime.The point was about how Imran had such a great stats at home which are mind boggling when playing surfaces are so similar. Pakistan players also a great records at home, your batsmen became all of sudden bradmans at home during that time. Guys like Muddasar Nazar scored 100s as if it was a cake walk. For your information India's record home record improved after neutral umpires came into picture, Indian umpires screw*ed Indian teams more during that time.Pakistan's home record tumbled after neutral umpires came into picture.

[mishra]

Well we did not produce Shakur Rana or Mike Denes/Harper, Imran, Gatting.. May be they deserve each other.... @utalk@ Don... How come poor performance of Indian team help to bring down Pakistani average. I thought it would have helped your 4:1 ratio.:nervous:

[mishra]

Well I used word Bottle Caps because I see bottle caps as a reason for Pakistan's success in England. Now you may agree or disagree with the fact that Pakistanis used bottle caps, but if they did, as I believe, than both the things are very well related, logically speaking. Now, you tell me how India being rubbish in 80's, which you keep bringing again and again, is logically related with Pakistani umpires being cheat

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imran_Khan

occasionally scratched the side of the ball and lifted the seam." He had also added, "Only once did I use an object.

:orderorder: He didnt say bottle caps

[Manny_Pacquiao]

For manny Raghav and other blind haters. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sachin_Tendulkar The match referee Mike Denness found Sachin Tendulkar guilty of ball tampering charges and handed him a one Test match ban.

http://www.rediff.com/cricket/2001/nov/28ten.htm tendulkar wasn't tampering and was cleared by an ICC tribunal. cameras showed he was only cleaning gras off the ball. you wouldn't know this of course, because you are an ignorant paki. its hilarious how you are to compare your repeat offenders and self-confessed cheats with some of the most well respected men in the game. isn't it funny how the worse the paki team becomes worse as the game of cricket becomes cleaner?

[Utalk]

http://www.rediff.com/cricket/2001/nov/28ten.htm tendulkar wasn't tampering and was cleared by an ICC tribunal. cameras showed he was only cleaning gras off the ball. you wouldn't know this of course, because you are an ignorant paki. its hilarious how you are to compare your repeat offenders and self-confessed cheats with some of the most well respected men in the game. isn't it funny how the worse the paki team becomes worse as the game of cricket becomes cleaner?

First thing first don't you call me an ignoring paki you hate filled low life scumbag. Second don't dish it out if you can't take it. We all know how your respected legend was found guilty and banned by the match ref and we also know how Indians threw there toys out of pram. Cleared my @rse Bullied more like. What about the other legend Dravid? He was also FOUND GUILTY.

[Manny_Pacquiao]

First thing first don't you call me an ignoring paki you hate filled low life scumbag. Second don't dish it out if you can't take it. We all know how your respected legend was found guilty and banned by the match ref and we also know how Indians threw there toys out of pram. Cleared my @rse Bullied more like. What about the other legend Dravid? He was also FOUND GUILTY.

LOL @ at how angry you are...why do you take offence to being called a paki, are u ashamed of being one? i didn't 'dish out' anything BRUV, i was simply pointing out that he didn't do anything. I know u pakis arent renowned for your intelligence but which part of the sentence saying, 'SACHIN TENDULKAR HAS NOT BEEN FOUND GUILTY OF BALL TAMPERING' do you not understand?? seems pretty clear to me. he didnt get sentenced for anything.

we also know how Indians threw there toys out of pram. Cleared my @rse Bullied more like.

yehhhhhhhhhhhhh, its all a big conspiracy innit, bruv. those evil hindoos, the CIA, and the evil jewz all conspired to 'bully' the ICC :(( u should go protest against them in the streets, hand out some leaflets on friday bruv.

[Utalk]

LOL @ at how angry you are...why do you take offence to being called a paki, are u ashamed of being one?

No I am not ashamed of being a Pakistani. I am sick and tired of your name calling and blatant racist behaviour.

i didn't 'dish out' anything BRUV, i was simply pointing out that he didn't do anything.

Sure?

International Cricket Council match referee Clive Lloyd believes Rahul Dravid's "energy sweet" ball-tampering actions were deliberate - a claim denied by Dravid and the Indian camp. According to Lloyd, who fined Dravid 50 per cent of his match payment over the incident, television footage conclusively showed the star Indian batsman intentionally applying a lozenge to the ball during the Zimbabwean innings on Tuesday night at the Gabba, breaching clause 2.10 of the ICC's Code of Conduct. Though Dravid, India coach John Wright and captain Sourav Ganguly claimed the action was accidental - arguing that the lozenge fell from Dravid's mouth - Lloyd felt otherwise. "It couldn't have been accidental because he's been fined," Lloyd said. "It was shown he was applying a substance to it. I looked at the film and it was conclusive. The rules are there - you can only apply saliva and sweat to the ball. "[india] can say it's accidental but the point is the footage shows that something has been applied to the ball and the rules state you are not allowed to do it. "Once the charge is brought you have to show the evidence. Something was being applied to the ball quite obviously and he must have known it. It's quite conclusive on film." On arrival at Sydney Airport yesterday, Dravid was asked if the incident was accidental. He replied: "It was . . . [but] I can't make a comment." Sources within the Indian camp later said the vice-captain was deeply upset his integrity had been questioned over what they strongly maintained was an innocent mistake over a jelly baby. Dravid had told Lloyd the offending lolly was inadvertently transferred from his tongue to his hand to the ball as he tried to shine it with saliva at mid-off. The team is understood to have initially thought the incident was "a bit of joke", but was later upset that " an honest mistake" had brought Dravid's integrity into question. The Indians accepted it would not look good magnified on television replays. Wright was also at the helm of the Indian side when ICC match referee Mike Denness levelled similar charges against Sachin Tendulkar in 2001. Tendulkar was fined 75 per cent of his match payment and suspended for one game for not informing umpires he was cleaning grass from the ba

I know u pakis arent renowned for your intelligence

Another statement where you show your class.

yehhhhhhhhhhhhh, its all a big conspiracy innit, bruv. those evil hindoos, the CIA, and the evil jewz all conspired to 'bully' the ICC :(( u should go protest against them in the streets, hand out some leaflets on friday bruv.

BBC says otherwise.

Sachin forever tainted Tendulkar's left middle finger runs down the seam BBC Sport Online's Oliver Brett considers the potential fall-out in India after Sachin Tendulkar is punished for ball-tampering. Most Indians, being Hindus, acknowledge many gods. But in cricket, there is only one. Not just in his hometown of Bombay but across the length and breadth of the country they all rise to Sachin Tendulkar.

[Manny_Pacquiao]

your denial is hilarious. i gave you an official statement from the ICC and you still think he tampered with the ball...wow. :hysterical: typical paki. dravid was just being careless, he should have known better than to chew candy while shining the ball. anyway, what does any of this have to do with the thread. the point is, paki cricketers are filthy cheats and they cant win **** without ball tampering and fixing. the stats in the OP prove it. just accept it and move on, stop making a scene in every damn thread. maybe someday they legalise ball tampering and paki cricket can return to their glorious days when they won COUNTLESS ausutrala-asia cups.

[Utalk]

I never denied Pakistani bowlers tampered with the ball. It's you on your high horse. Yours Gods tried it too and failed.

[Utalk]

And ICC match ref was an untrustworthy witness? I respect good cricketers and sachin is the best batsman of my 25 years as a fan. It has been a privilege watching him bat. Dravid is another player I admire. Indian batsmen have been a joy to watch from Azhar to Laxman. But if you insult us you will get the same in return. Only difference is I won't stoop to your level and call Indians ignorant or cheats. Sorry cricket tragic, Rajiv, VVS, gambhirfan but I have had enough with this guy. If you carry on insulting Imran n co you will get the same in return.

[Old guy]

lol imho this is stupid logic sorry but umpiring cant effect results so much pakistan was better team before all know this so better record simple as that yes some umpires werent of good standard but even now we see these things happen and i dont think it was such a major factor in results

[Manny_Pacquiao]

I never denied Pakistani bowlers tampered with the ball. It's you on your high horse. Yours Gods tried it too and failed.

my 'gods' (LOL) aren't bowlers that needed to cheat to take wickets. tendulkar didn't tamper with the ball. period. anybody who watched the footage will tell you that, and the ICC clarified that his charge wasnt for ball tampering or any kind of alteration of the ball's condition. simple. just because you don't like what you hear doesn't mean you should deny it and claim some kind of RAW-BCCI-mossad-Jewish conspiracy crap. i dont see whats wrong in anything i said. pakistan's results have suffered greatly as a result of neutral umpires, they lost to every single country (including zimbabwe and a minnow Sri Lankan team, LOL) at home in the 1990s once neutral umpires were brought in and shakeer rana was done away with. the 2000s have been a decade of COMPLETE FAIL as their bowlers, after being caught tampering multiple times, realised they could no longer use traditional methods. now what is wrong with that comment? did i say anything that wasn't factual? why si this so hard for you to accept?? :((

[Utalk]

Again I will come back to 15-6 in India between 1983-2005 with no Pakistani umpires proves we were better at the time. Why can't you admit like a grown man that we were better. I have no problem saying Indian side of past 8 years has been better then us. Our players have let us down in recent years. But with men like YK around I still have hopes for future. You don't need to resort to racist jibes to have a discussion. I will never defend idiots like Afridi(a serial cheat) or the trio but will not tolerate your stereo typical racist jibes. Every country has had fair share of black sheeps and so do we. Azhar Cronje Warne etc weren't pakistanis. As for shakoor rana he wasn't a biased umpire. He got bad name due to Gatting fiasco. We had far worse in shakil khan and Nazir junior. You know why we lost against SL in 95. It was internal fights of Ws and they wanted rameez to fail. Same thing happened with sohail 98 in Zim home series. Same team thrashed England in Eng 92-96 and drew in SA98. Beat Ind in Ind99.