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Explain evolution to me

flamy

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akshayxyz Newbie

akshayxyz

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The only problem with my car example is that the changes are brought over by already 'intelligent' beings. Where in evolution of life, the changes happened by random copying errors (meiosis, radiation etc..) - which may seem random when you look at a narrow window of time. But over millions of years fitness/survival/stability (natural selection) sort of regulated the process of which traits can be passed on. Interestingly, (as I indicated in my example by test-parameters), survival parameters have also evolved along with many other things.

akshayxyz Newbie

akshayxyz

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If the Homosapiens were' date=' in fact, [b']Homo Sapiens, is that why they're extinct?"
I was wondering whether there is any species that can actually reproduce homo-sexually ( not asexually). Here is what I found:
Elephants: African and Asian males will engage in same-sex bonding and mounting. Such encounters are often associated with affectionate interactions, such as kissing, trunk intertwining, and placing trunks in each other's mouths.
trunki-lingus. :)).
akshayxyz Newbie

akshayxyz

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People often fail to understand evolution going by arguments like - probability of having something so complex as life/intelligent-beings is too low... too chancy.. and hence it must be some intelligent design. For them I would highly recommend this book: The Blind Watchmaker [ame=http://www.amazon.com/Blind-Watchmaker-Evidence-Evolution-Universe/dp/0393315703]Amazon.com: The Blind Watchmaker: Why the Evidence of Evolution Reveals a Universe without Design (9780393315707): Richard Dawkins: Books[/ame] Also, on recent Bangalore meet - Flamy brought about this point - about 99% of genetic material we carry is useless ( gibberish).. I guess I was able to answer that - how, at every step of mutation/evolution, oraganisms/life had no intelligent choice to consciously tweak their own DNA - which is why almost all the living organisms carry almost all the DNA (from the same evolutionary tree) , and only specific genes are turned on for specific species/functions. However, today humans have reached a stage when we are capable of editing DNA material as we wish.

triam Newbie

triam

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It becomes easy to understand/accept evolution if we remove the idea that humankind is the pinnacle of evolution or that evolution/natural selection worked towards a goal - that is to create humans. This thought has been ingrained into us, so difficult to see it in an objective way. Mutation/natural selection happens and humankind is just a by product of this. Once you accept this statement then terms like chancy etc wont be used.

flamy Apprentice

flamy

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Mutation (in simplest words) - small changes in genetic material (DNA/RNA of a cell/virus). There can be numerous factors/forces that can cause mutation - radiation, chemicals, meiosis etc. In context of evolution (of life on earth) - meiosis is supposed to be the biggest factor for these genetic changes (in sexual reproduction). Evolution - Every generation carries forward certain traits from its previous generation. And for one or other reasons, sometimes (almost always) those traits are not passed on as-it-is. Evolution is the accumulation changes in those traits over time. (as indicated before, there can be many agents of those changes). Here is an example to explain the process of evolution. This should also answer (by analogy) - how monkeys and humans both can exist even though they are so different in appearance. Imagine this - you make a blueprint of a basic working car (which can be driven on a straight road for 10 minutes) and then allow two persons to copy it, they in turn allow another set of two people (each) to copy further - so and so forth. At every step of copying: a) The one who is copying is allowed to refer only the immediate previous generation (who allowed him to copy). b) Accept the fact that copier will make copying errors, due to mis-interpretation or damaged blueprint or some customization. c) Accept the fact that at every generation, copiers may add additional test parameters (parameters of survival/fitness), many times due to change in geography. d) Copier generation has to test the blueprint by ensuring that the car is functional (meets - driven on a straight road for 10 minutes and any additional test parameters). Then only they can allow next generation to copy. Iterate this process some 10s of times, it is not difficult to see that after reasonable number of iterations, you will see different models of cars, which all can look different (some very different), but all are able to pass the basic survival test (driven on straight road for 10 minutes). Also, there will be some generations where the survival parameters would have changed too much (or there would have been too many copying errors) - then those generations wont be reproduced further and will become extinct. In above example, if you start at even more fundamental level - bicycle/bullock-cart (a vehicle with 2/4/N tyres that can be driven on road while carrying a load) - then you can see the extent of change/diversity evolution process can bring even over 10-100 generations. As for life, evolution has happened over millions of years. Evolution applies not only to organisms/life, but to anything, any concept that can be described by certain fundamental traits (so that it can be copied and carried forward) and allows changes while being passed through generations w/o affecting the survival - e.g. computers have evolved over the time, maths/science has evolved, philosophy has evolved. Also, it should be noted - even if a certain mutation/trait can affect chances of survival, it can still be passed on as long as the organism reaches the age of reproduction (or is dormant in certain generations). E.g. Diabetes, it usually kicks start after 30s - by which time most of them would have reproduced and in many cases would also have raised their off-springs to such an age, that they can survive by themselves.
so Evolution is just Chinese Whispers? It depends on errors being introduced. What is the source of these errors? Random chance?
akshayxyz Newbie

akshayxyz

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so Evolution is just Chinese Whispers?
Sort of. One would not be too wrong in saying that, except the part that in case of "Chinese whispers" conscious actors introduce the errors, albeit unknowingly - by chance.
It depends on errors being introduced. What is the source of these errors? Random chance?
yes, but not entirely. As somewhere I said - the selection criteria (fitment test of the environment) - also keeps changing - on random events, and sometimes ( like these days) - we are modifying our own environment - at smaller scales though. Source of errors - yes, I would say they come randomly, via different mechanisms - meiosis, radiation etc., but there is sort of strict selection criteria and reproduciblity (within some margin of error). So - overall it is random. lets take example of one of the sources of error - Meiosis - I do not think there is any evidence - yet - which can disprove the randomness of the process- in other words, it will take monumental amount of analytics to prove beyond doubt that some one is making conscious decisions where to cut/swap the DNA. Of course, another argument can be - someone has "designed the process to be like that" - well that theory of 'creative' force has no end..its like a badly written program leading to stack overflow, keep making nested calls, with no terminating condition.
akshayxyz Newbie

akshayxyz

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So - overall it is random, but we have reached a stage that significant part of evolution is getting tweaked via conscious beings... and some decisions of these conscious beings are collectively decided - read about 'world organism', there is not enough material yet on this, but once you see the analogy, you will like it......and this is what I would like to call 'primitive god' - where god = "collective consciousness"..read "The last Answer" by Isaac Asimov.

flamy Apprentice

flamy

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So - overall it is random' date=' but we have reached a stage that significant part of evolution is getting tweaked via conscious beings... and some decisions of these conscious beings are collectively decided - read about 'world organism', there is not enough material yet on this, but once you see the analogy, you will like it......and this is what I would like to call 'primitive god' - where god = "collective consciousness"..read "The last Answer" by Isaac Asimov.[/quote'] Of course. That's what I have been saying all along. Look at my signature. My position was that there is an intelligence behind evolution. A Cosmic Consciousness. This is the Oneness, the Source and hence the reason I say Universe is God, and all of us being part of the Universe are God. No morality. No dogma. Everything is valid. By the way, I'll be picking up The Blind Watchmaker soon as I'm very interested in the theories that he proposes. Meanwhile, you can read A New Earth or The Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle to get a perspective on Source.
akshayxyz Newbie

akshayxyz

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Sorry for the Ninja marketing.. here is the short story - "The Last Answer" - .. 10-15 minutes read at max.. but lot of food of thought. http://filer.case.edu/dts8/thelastq.htm IMO, these together, is as closest as it goes to defining god, and his/universe's purpose too!. and interestingly it has come from a scientist ( and I guess he was Atheist himself).

Murray Templeton was forty-five years old, in the prime of life, and with all parts of his body in perfect working order except for certain key portions of his coronary arteries, but that was enough. The pain had come suddenly, had mounted to an unbearable peak, and had then ebbed steadily. He could feel his breath slowing and a kind of gathering peace washing over him. There is no pleasure like the absence of pain - immediately after pain. Murray felt an almost giddy lightness as though he were lifting in the air and hovering. He opened his eyes and noted with distant amusement that the others in the room were still agitated. He had been in the laboratory when the pain had struck, quite without warning, and when he had staggered, he had heard surprised outcries from the others before everything vanished into overwhelming agony. Now, with the pain gone, the others were still hovering, still anxious, still gathered about his fallen body - - Which, he suddenly realised, he was looking down on. He was down there, sprawled, face contorted. He was up here, at peace and watching. He thought: Miracle of miracles! The life-after-life nuts were right. And although that was a humiliating way for an atheistic physicist to die, he felt only the mildest surprise, and no alteration of the peace in which he was immersed. He thought: There should be some angel - or something - coming for me. The Earthly scene was fading. Darkness was invading his consciousness and off in a distance, as a last glimmer of sight, there was a figure of light, vaguely human in form, and radiating warmth. Murray thought: What a joke on me. IÃÎ going to Heaven. Even as he thought that, the light faded, but the warmth remained. There was no lessening of the peace even though in all the Universe only he remained - and the Voice. The Voice said, Ū have done this so often and yet I still have the capacity to be pleased at success. It was in MurrayÃÔ mind to say something, but he was not conscious of possessing a mouth, tongue, or vocal chords. Nevertheless, tried to make a sound. He tried, mouthlessly, to hum words or breathe them or just push them out by a contraction of - something. And they came out. He heard his own voice, quite recognisable, and his own words, infinitely clear. Murray said, Ūs this Heaven? The Voice said, ŵhis is no place as you understand place. Murray was embarrassed, but the next question had to be asked. űardon me if I sound like a jackass. Are you God? Without changing intonation or in any way marring the perfection of the sound, the Voice managed to sound amused. Ūt is strange that I am always asked that in, of course, an infinite number of ways. There is no answer I can give that you would comprehend. I am - which is all that I can say significantly and you may cover that with any word or concept you please. Murray said, Å¢nd what am I? A soul? Or am I only personified existence too? He tried not to sound sarcastic, but it seemed to him that he had failed. He thought then, fleetingly, of adding a úour Grace or éoly One or something to counteract the sarcasm, and could not bring himself to do so even though for the first time in his existence he speculated on the possibility of being punished for his insolence - or sin? - with Hell, and what that might be like. The Voice did not sound offended. źou are easy to explain - even to you. You may call yourself a soul if that pleases you, but what you are is a nexus of electromagnetic forces, so arranged that all the interconnections and interrelationships are exactly imitative of those of your brain in your Universe-existence - down to the smallest detail. Therefore you have your capacity for thought, your memories, your personality. It still seems to you that you are you. Murray found himself incredulous. źou mean the essence of my brain was permanent? ůot at all. There is nothing about you that is permanent except what I choose to make so. I formed the nexus. I constructed it while you had physical existence and adjusted it to the moment when the existence failed. The Voice seemed distinctly pleased with itself, and went on after a momentÃÔ pause. Å¢n intricate but entirely precise construction. I could, of course, do it for every human being on your world but I am pleased that I do not. There is pleasure in the selection. źou choose very few then? Å·ery few. Å¢nd what happens to the rest? Å°blivion! - Oh, of course, you imagine a Hell. Murray would have flushed if he had the capacity to do so. He said, Ū do not. It is spoken of. Still, I would scarcely have thought I was virtuous enough to have attracted your attention as one of the Elect. Å·irtuous? - Ah, I see what you mean. It is troublesome to have to force my thinking small enough to permeate yours. No, I have chosen you for your capacity for thought, as I choose others, in quadrillions, from all the intelligent species of the Universe. Murray found himself suddenly curious, the habit of a lifetime. He said, Ã…Â¥o you choose them all yourself or are there others like you? For a fleeting moment, Murray thought there was an impatient reaction to that, but when the Voice came, it was unmoved. Ÿhether or not there are others is irrelevant to you. This Universe is mine, and mine alone. It is my invention, my construction, intended for my purpose alone. Å¢nd yet with quadrillions of nexi you have formed, you spend time with me? Am I that important? The Voice said, źou are not important at all. I am also with others in a way which, to your perception, would seem simultaneous. Å¢nd yet you are one? Again amusement. The Voice said, źou seek to trap me into an inconsistency. If you were an amoeba who could consider individuality only in connection with single cells and if you were to ask a sperm whale, made up of thirty quadrillion cells, whether it was one or many, how could the sperm whale answer in a way that would be comprehensible to the amoeba? Murray said dryly, ŪÃÃl think about it. It may become comprehensible. Ŧxactly. That is your function. You will think. ŵo what end? You already know everything, I suppose. The Voice said, Ŧven if I knew everything, I could not know that I know everything. Murray said, ŵhat sounds like a bit of Eastern philosophy - something that sounds profound precisely because it has no meaning. The Voice said, źou have promise. You answer my paradox with a paradox - except that mine is not a paradox. Consider. I have existed eternally, but what does that mean? It means I cannot remember having come into existence. If I could, I would not have existed eternally. If I cannot remember having come into existence, then there is at least one thing - the nature of my coming into existence - that I do not know. ŵhen, too, although what I know is infinite, it is also true that what there is to know is infinite, and how can I be sure that both infinities are equal? The infinity of potential knowledge may be infinitely greater than the infinity of my actual knowledge. Here is a simple example: If I knew every one of the even integers, I would know an infinite number of items, and yet I would still not know a single odd integer. Murray said, Å£ut the odd integers can be derived. If you divide every even integer in the entire infinite series by two, you will get another infinite series which will contain within it the infinite series of odd integers. The Voice said, źou have the idea. I am pleased. It will be your task to find other such ways, far more difficult ones, from the known to the not-yet-known. You have your memories. You will remember all the data you have ever collected or learned, or that you have or will deduce from that data. If necessary, you will be allowed to learn what additional data you will consider relevant to the problems you set yourself. Ťould you not do all that for yourself? The Voice said, Ū can, but it is more interesting this way. I constructed the Universe in order to have more facts to deal with. I inserted the uncertainty principle, entropy, and other randomisation factors to make the whole not instantly obvious. It has worked well for it has amused me throughout its entire existence. Ū then allowed complexities that produced first life and then intelligence, and use it as a source for a research team, not because I need the aid, but because it would introduce a new random factor. I found I could not predict the next interesting piece of knowledge gained, where it would come from, by what means derived. Murray said, Ã…Â¥oes that ever happen? Ťertainly. A century doesnÃÕ pass in which some interesting item doesnÃÕ appear somewhere. Å´omething that you could have thought of yourself, but had not done so yet? źes. Murray said, Ã…Â¥o you actually think thereÃÔ a chance of my obliging you in this manner? Ūn the next century? Virtually none. In the long run, though, your success is certain, since you will be engaged eternally. Murray said, Ū will be thinking through eternity? Forever? źes. ŵo what end? Ū have told you. To find new knowledge. Å£ut beyond that. For what purpose am I to find new knowledge? Ūt was what you did in your Universe-bound life. What was its purpose then? Murray said, ŵo gain new knowledge that only I could gain. To receive the praise of my fellows. To feel the satisfaction of accomplishment knowing that I had only a short time allotted me for the purpose. - Now I would gain only what you could gain yourself if you wished to take a small bit of trouble. You cannot praise me; you can only be amused. And there is no credit or satisfaction in accomplishment when I have all eternity to do it in. The Voice said, Å¢nd you do not find thought and discovery worthwhile in itself? You do not find it requiring no further purpose? ŧor a finite time, yes. Not for all eternity. Ū see your point. Nevertheless, you have no choice. źou say I am to think. You cannot make me do so. The Voice said, Ū do not wish to constrain you directly. I will not need to. Since you can do nothing but think, you will think. You do not know how not to think. ŵhen I will give myself a goal. I will invent a purpose. The Voice said tolerantly, ŵhat you can certainly do. Ū have already found a purpose. Å®ay I know what it is? źou know already. I know we are not speaking in the ordinary fashion. You adjust my nexus is such a way that I believe I hear you and I believe I speak, but you transfer thoughts to me and from me directly. And when my nexus changes with my thoughts you are at once aware of them and do not need my voluntary transmission. The Voice said, źou are surprisingly correct. I am pleased. - But it also pleases me to have you tell me your thoughts voluntarily. ŵhen I will tell you. The purpose of my thinking will be to discover a way to disrupt this nexus of me that you have created. I do not want to think for no purpose but to amuse you. I do not want to think forever to amuse you. I do not want to exist forever to amuse you. All my thinking will be directed toward ending the nexus. That would amuse me. The Voice said, Ū have no objection to that. Even concentrated thought on ending your own existence may, in spite of you, come up with something new and interesting. And, of course, if you succeed in this suicide attempt you will have accomplished nothing, for I would instantly reconstruct you and in such a way as to make your method of suicide impossible. And if you found another and still more subtle fashion of disrupting yourself, I would reconstruct you with that possibility eliminated, and so on. It could be an interesting game, but you will nevertheless exist eternally. It is my will. Murray felt a quaver but the words came out with a perfect calm. Å¢m I in Hell then, after all? You have implied there is none, but if this were Hell you would lie to us as part of the game of Hell. The Voice said, Ūn that case, of what use is it to assure you that you are not in Hell? Nevertheless, I assure you. There is here neither Heaven nor Hell. There is only myself. Murray said, Ťonsider, then, that my thoughts may be useless to you. If I come up with nothing useful, will it not be worth your while to - disassemble me and take no further trouble with me? Å¢s a reward? You want Nirvana as the prize of failure and you intend to assure me failure? There is no bargain there. You will not fail. With all eternity before you, you cannot avoid having at least one interesting thought, however you try against it. ŵhen I will create another purpose for myself. I will not try to destroy myself. I will set as my goal the humiliation of you. I will think of something you have not only never thought of but never could think of. I will think of the last answer, beyond which there is no knowledge further. The Voice said, źou do not understand the nature of the infinite. There may be things I have not yet troubled to know. There cannot be anything I cannot know. Murray said thoughtfully, źou cannot know your beginning. You have said so. Therefore you cannot know your end. Very well, then. That will be my purpose and that will be the last answer. I will not destroy myself. I will destroy you - if you do not destroy me first. The Voice said, Å¢h! You come to that in rather less than average time. I would have thought it would have taken you longer. There is not one of those I have with me in this existence of perfect and eternal thought that does not have the ambition of destroying me. It cannot be done. Murray said, Ū have all eternity to think of a way of destroying you. The Voice said, equably, ŵhen try to think of it. And it was gone. But Murray had his purpose now and was content. For what could any Entity, conscious of eternal existence, want - but an end? For what else had the Voice been searching for countless billions of years? And for what other reason had intelligence been created and certain specimens salvaged and put to work, but to aid in that great search? And Murray intended that it would be he, and he alone, who would succeed. Carefully, and with the thrill of purpose, Murray began to think. He had plenty of time.

And "The last Question" by Isaac Asimov, again.

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